When is someone going to make a decent projector? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 80 Old 07-05-2014, 02:17 AM
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The ONLY projector that comes remotely close to what the OP wants is the Runco LS-100D. I currently own one. 1080p DC4 DMD with ultra short throw optics that actually provide a sharp image. It has an LED light engine and in it's most aggressive DI mode offers truly infinite contrast as the LEDs will shut off completely for a black level reading. The only shortcoming is the brightness spec. With a few tweaks you can get brightness up to about 800 lumens. LEDs used in projectors just aren't bright enough to get to the lumen spec the OP wants. I currently have it for sale in the classifieds section of this forum if you're interested.

But with that said. I have a feeling you don't fully understand the projector market if you think a company can bring you the product you want at the price point you want. It doesn't work that way. Yes the LEDs are cheap, but that's besides the point. To get a decent performing DLP DMD in regards to contrast you have to pay through the roof for it. TI grades their DMDs and charges manufacturers a LOT more money for them as you go up in contrast performance. Then you need to factor in the optics needed for not only ultra short throw, but also the larger .95" DMD as these are the only ones that offer competitive contrast performance. So large size (a necessity if you want to use the larger DMD to get competitive contrast performance) and unique shaped lenses for ultra short throw that offer decent sharpness on the cheap? I don't think so. If you think you could get away with a BenQ 1070-type quality lens for ultra short throw you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and should stop posting about the subject altogether. Then we need to factor in decent video processing. Video processing can make or break the overall PQ of a projector. Poor processing can result in a noisy image, poor motion handling, and a soft looking image among many other things. While the price has gone down in the 1080p world for adequate processing/scaling, just like higher grade DMDs, processing boards that offer better than average performance have a premium. Also factor in R&D (yes, unfortunately great performing intellectual properties like dynamic iris algorithms and color management systems cost a lot money to develop), half way decent manufacturing quality control, a solid warranty, and decent build quality and you wonder why a company can't bring us a product like the one you want for under $3000. Please take a moment and take a step back and think about how the world really works and then you'll understand why there isn't a product out there (other than the LS-100D) that meets most of the standards you're looking for in a projector.

One of the huge problems people have with quality projectors is the price. Unfortunately, unlike TVs, the price for these high PQ units will stay high because quality glass optics will ALWAYS be expensive. Projectors have always been and will probably always will be far too niche so that mass production will lower the price point for adequate lens quality the OP wants at the price point he wants. This alone is the reason you're never going to get what you want at the price you want. It's sad but true. Just like camera lenses you need to pay a LOT for quality glass. For what you want, you need high quality glass lenses.

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post #62 of 80 Old 07-05-2014, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
... I don't believe any LCOS models have used LED lighting yet.
... maybe we'll even be lucky enough to see an LED LCOS projector with the same great blacks and contrast we've come to expect from one.
There have been (and are currently) a few LED LCoS, but I've only seen single panel versions with contrast around 1000:1.
I wonder if a good 3panel version could still use the simplified design of RGB LEDs instead of splitting white via prisms.

The LED DLPs besides the consistency benefits you mentioned also become more efficient from using only the required RGB sources as they are required instead of blocking light with a colorwheel. They also become hardier from that lack of moving parts (a DMD can take a surprising amount of shock and abuse..as can fans). It is also fairly typical for them to use faster strobe times which further reduce RBE even compared to the 6X w1070 at 50Hz. The safe instant off ability is friendly as well as the seemingly endless number of strikes.

Beyond the lower lumens and different shape of the LED source, a focused light is a focused light and manufacturers are free to use whatever quality and style of lensing they please. The amount of options available as prices slide downward are pretty exciting.

Sort of on topic; can anyone explain how early in the light-path any lensshift/offset options need to be placed and why they are so often limited for DLP?
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post #63 of 80 Old 07-05-2014, 06:04 AM
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well, this has certainly been an amusing thread
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post #64 of 80 Old 07-05-2014, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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About as stupid as someone who thinks it's as easy as slapping some parts from a bin together. Seriously man, you need to take an Econ 101 course.
You need to take a couple of courses on manufacturing. I'm an engineer and I work in a manufacturing plant. I can't tell you that it for the most part it doesn't really matter what it is the cost to produce something is largely related to the volume being produced.

Take a Ferrari 458. From a manufacturing standpoint there is nothing really special about it compared to say a Toyota Camry. All the parts are produced the same way and all the pieces are assembled the same way. If someone were to build it at the volumes of a Camry the 458 would cost roughly the same as the 458.

All I'm saying with this thread is that the projector market needs a paradigm shift to increase volumes and lower cost. It's caught in this niche mode and needs to get out of it.

If they could make a small, light weight short throw projector they could increase volumes substantially and lower costs. Then the consumer gets a projector that is easy to install, produces a much larger image than a flat panel can provide and doesn't cost a crazy amount of money.
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post #65 of 80 Old 07-05-2014, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post
You need to take a couple of courses on manufacturing. I'm an engineer and I work in a manufacturing plant. I can't tell you that it for the most part it doesn't really matter what it is the cost to produce something is largely related to the volume being produced.

Take a Ferrari 458. From a manufacturing standpoint there is nothing really special about it compared to say a Toyota Camry. All the parts are produced the same way and all the pieces are assembled the same way. If someone were to build it at the volumes of a Camry the 458 would cost roughly the same as the 458.

All I'm saying with this thread is that the projector market needs a paradigm shift to increase volumes and lower cost. It's caught in this niche mode and needs to get out of it.

If they could make a small, light weight short throw projector they could increase volumes substantially and lower costs. Then the consumer gets a projector that is easy to install, produces a much larger image than a flat panel can provide and doesn't cost a crazy amount of money.
All my engineering, logistics and manufacturing course went fine for me. Seems you need a refresher.
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post #66 of 80 Old 07-05-2014, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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All my engineering, logistics and manufacturing course went fine for me. Seems you need a refresher.
Ahhhh logistics. That explains it. Not really engineering. Let me guess IE, IEOM?
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post #67 of 80 Old 07-05-2014, 02:26 PM
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All I'm saying with this thread is that the projector market needs a paradigm shift to increase volumes and lower cost. It's caught in this niche mode and needs to get out of it.
But prices have been dropping, rather drastically. You're acting like there hasn't been any progress at all, despite falling prices, rising contrast ratios, shrinking sizes, and the huge leaps LEDs have made in the last few years. Just because the exact specific projector you personally want doesn't exist yet doesn't mean the industry has been sitting on their collective hands.

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Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post
If they could make a small, light weight short throw projector they could increase volumes substantially and lower costs. Then the consumer gets a projector that is easy to install, produces a much larger image than a flat panel can provide and doesn't cost a crazy amount of money.
You keep switching between short throw and ultra short throw (which is a pretty big difference in terms of usability), but I have to ask... have you ever used one? The nature of firing light at a steep angle, rather than straight ahead, does not make installation easier in a lot of scenarios. It's much more demanding for placement and much less forgiving of surface imperfections. The upshot is that it doesn't require as much distance from the screen, which can work very well in small or awkwardly shaped rooms, but it's not the magic bullet for projector installation you seem to think it is.

Projectors will always be more complicated than standard TVs and monitors, just by the nature of having the light source and the screen separated from each other and relying on the user to match them up. You can make the process easier than it is, but never easier than a TV, which is why they're going to remain a niche as long as convenience plays a large part in purchases.
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post #68 of 80 Old 07-05-2014, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post
You need to take a couple of courses on manufacturing. I'm an engineer and I work in a manufacturing plant. I can't tell you that it for the most part it doesn't really matter what it is the cost to produce something is largely related to the volume being produced.

Take a Ferrari 458. From a manufacturing standpoint there is nothing really special about it compared to say a Toyota Camry. All the parts are produced the same way and all the pieces are assembled the same way. If someone were to build it at the volumes of a Camry the 458 would cost roughly the same as the 458.

All I'm saying with this thread is that the projector market needs a paradigm shift to increase volumes and lower cost. It's caught in this niche mode and needs to get out of it.

If they could make a small, light weight short throw projector they could increase volumes substantially and lower costs. Then the consumer gets a projector that is easy to install, produces a much larger image than a flat panel can provide and doesn't cost a crazy amount of money.
quality takes more time, and time is money. they don't hand build cars because they want to, they hand build cars because it ensures a highly level of quality when it comes to fit and finish.


same thing applies all over. in order to produce high quality optics, it takes longer for those lenses to be made. less room for error means more product needs to be recycled instead of sold too.


there is advantage to building in mass, but it's not a miracle cure that makes everything cheap.
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post #69 of 80 Old 07-06-2014, 07:57 AM
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To my thinking you could literally give the best performing projector on the market to the overwhelming majority of the population and they wouldn't use it at all. It simply doesn't fit their lifestyle. Not unlike giving them a tank and expecting them to drive it over their current vehicle. It simply doesn't fit how they live... so much for volume discounts.
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post #70 of 80 Old 07-06-2014, 10:39 AM
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To my thinking you could literally give the best performing projector on the market to the overwhelming majority of the population and they wouldn't use it at all. It simply doesn't fit their lifestyle. Not unlike giving them a tank and expecting them to drive it over their current vehicle. It simply doesn't fit how they live... so much for volume discounts.
to build on this, the 'best' projector for the average person is going to be nothing like the 'best' projector for the movie enthusiast.


heck, we can't even pick a projector that's 'the best' for 2D and 3D. let alone one that's also the best for gaming, ambient light viewing, dark room viewing, watching sports, etc.


if you think 'projectors' are a niche product now, take away the options we have now by mass producing only one model and watch that market shrink even more...
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post #71 of 80 Old 07-06-2014, 11:15 AM
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When is someone going to make a decent projector?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
heck, we can't even pick a projector that's 'the best' for 2D and 3D. let alone one that's also the best for gaming, ambient light viewing, dark room viewing, watching sports, etc.


if you think 'projectors' are a niche product now, take away the options we have now by mass producing only one model and watch that market shrink even more...

That's for sure. DLP is amazing for motion/sport, 3D and sharpness but average on contrast and black level. LCOS/SXRD is amazing for contrast and black level but average for motion/sport, 3D and sharpness.
Heck, it's the old "Fast, Good and Cheap - pick any two!" triangle all over again.

With time, iterative improvements on these projection technologies will hopefully drive these limitations down (along with costs, as we've seen with DLP).

But yes: this, coupled with almost-arbitrary requirements (low-ambient-light rooms, dark-colored paint-jobs, projectors requiring separated placement from projection screens) is going to keep home-based front-projection niche for some time to come...

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post #72 of 80 Old 07-06-2014, 03:00 PM
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IMHO, the OP -- despite a professed familiarity with the manufacturing process -- is giving short shrift to the challenges and difficulties posed with cutting-edge designs by the engineers in the R & D department upstairs (or across the sea) from the factory floor.

OTOH, this mentality goes a long way in explaining the demise of domestic product development in favor of offshore quasi-clones where everything (including design engineering) is reduced to a commodity.
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post #73 of 80 Old 07-06-2014, 08:36 PM
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What is the next "best bang for the buck" projector out there for $2,000? It seems like there has been a void. I bought an Epson 8700UB back in 2011 because it was hailed at the time. While a nice looking image, it eats bulbs every 800-900 hours. Already been through 5-6 since I bought it (most of them on Epson's dime). Had to send back my original projector to get a replacement due to a dust blob in the center of the screen after 5 months of use. Had to play with Epson for twice until getting a brand new one because they kept sending me refurbished crap (one with poor convergence and one that you had to focus each time using it).

The current 8700UB that I have has been great, but it's now starting to make a mechanical clicking noise when starting. Not sure what that means. It's probably going to destroy my resale value (who wants to buy something that makes a strange noise?) My bulb is nearing 800 hours and I have to now order a new bulb to keep one on hand. Another $260, can't wait.

I've been wondering if it's time to step up. But I only want to spend $2000. If technology has gotten better since 2011, where is my next $2000 projector that will spank what I have? I need to be able to mount it anywhere I want and adjust the picture wherever I need it on the wall without having to physically move the projector. I want something that will at least be "truly" rated by the bulb life (seems like Epsons eat bulbs way faster than their rated life), and I want dark blacks (Epson 8700UB or better). I want something with latency that is as fast, if not faster than the 8700UB for gaming (which isn't "excellent" but nor "bad"). Will $2000 get me something with 3D + glasses, and a free bulb like my last purchase?

If the answer is "yes", then I can get the next best thing that I want for $2000.

If the answer is "No", then the OP is dreaming of electric sheep.
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post #74 of 80 Old 07-07-2014, 08:42 AM
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The Sony hw40es fits all or most of your requirements on sale for $2000 right now. No bulb or glasses (PS3 glasses work for under $20)

Smart enough to know better, to old to care
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post #75 of 80 Old 07-07-2014, 11:17 AM
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I just realized the LED DLP hd91 has a full above/center/below vertical shift, along with horizontal lens-shift and 1.9:1zoom. I thought singlechip DLP wasn't even ABLE to have that sort of placement range.
Why don't more $2000+ DLPs have this kind of range?
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post #76 of 80 Old 07-07-2014, 05:56 PM
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While a nice looking image, it eats bulbs every 800-900 hours.
Why the Epson has such a poor bulb life? Or something to do with your environement? The W1070 has rated 6000 hours in smart eco, and I've seen several real life claims to be pretty close, around 5000 hours mark. Bulb costs less than $100 from Aliexpress.
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post #77 of 80 Old 07-07-2014, 07:31 PM
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I just realized the LED DLP hd91 has a full above/center/below vertical shift, along with horizontal lens-shift and 1.9:1zoom. I thought singlechip DLP wasn't even ABLE to have that sort of placement range.
Why don't more $2000+ DLPs have this kind of range?
Because the cheaper DLP units use the cheaper and smaller .65" DMD. Once you step up to the larger higher performance .95" DMD the size of the optics needed to get the same placement flexibility as the HD91 is HUGE. Once you get north of $10000 you start to see greater placement flexibility with DLP projectors. The money is in the budget to use optics large enough.

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post #78 of 80 Old 07-07-2014, 10:20 PM
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Because the cheaper DLP units use the cheaper and smaller .65" DMD. Once you step up to the larger higher performance .95" DMD the size of the optics needed to get the same placement flexibility as the HD91 is HUGE. Once you get north of $10000 you start to see greater placement flexibility with DLP projectors. The money is in the budget to use optics large enough.
That makes it sound like it's cheaper to produce such flexible optics for the smaller .65"DMD. Am I misunderstanding?
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post #79 of 80 Old 07-07-2014, 10:25 PM
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That makes it sound like it's cheaper to produce such flexible optics for the smaller .65"DMD. Am I misunderstanding?
Yes, that's true, but you're rarely going to see that happen because the budget just isn't there to afford a "flexible" lens on your typical .65" DMD home theater projector. You don't need to go overboard on lens size to be able to get the same kind of flexibility LCD and LCoS projectors typically get with the smaller DMD. If you look at the size of those LCD and LCoS chips you'll see that they're also right around the .65" size. Typically speaking the LCoS and LCD projectors are in a higher price bracket compared to most .65" DMD projector so they too get better lenses which affords them better placement flexibility. The HD91 and Sharp XV-Z30000 are exceptions to the rule because of their far higher MSRP. They get larger, better, optics. There are drawbacks to making smaller sized chips. The smaller the DMD gets, the worse it's native contrast gets. Most .65" DMDs offer roughly 1200-1700:1 contrast and the larger .95" DMD offers anywhere from 2500-5000:1 contrast. Optical quality can also affect contrast too. Also, the smaller the DMD gets the harder it is for optics to focus on the DMD mirrors. You need better optics on the .65" DMD to get the same kind of sharpness a .95" DMD can get with less "high end" optics. This is typically why a .95" DMD projector has a much sharper image. It's easier to get better back-plane focus with something that's larger in surface area. But unfortunately the .65" DMD projectors get the short end of the stick because the price segment it's typically found in. They get poorer lenses because the manufacturing cost becomes too high for the price bracket the company plans to sell the projector in. So image sharpness, contrast performance, and placement flexibly all get exponentially worse as the price goes down, typically speaking.
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post #80 of 80 Old 07-07-2014, 10:36 PM
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That makes sense then..not that I have to be happy about it.

Has anyone found a tear-down video or something similar that shows the workings of the zoom and offset/shift lenses? It's be great to SEE the difference between LCD and DLP moving lenses. Even a simplified diagram would be nice.
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post #81 of 80 Old 07-08-2014, 04:48 AM
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Ahhhh logistics. That explains it. Not really engineering. Let me guess IE, IEOM?
Yes, logistics isn't engineering. That's why I took engineering courses.
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