When is someone going to make a decent projector? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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When is someone going to make a decent projector?

I'm frustrated with the projector market. IMO there is nothing really good out there. It's either low res, to loud, to expensive, expensive lamps, poor contrast, etc.

What is frustrating is that all of the individual technologies to make a really good projector have been available for some time but for some reason manufacturers are stuck in this creep mode. Not only that but these solid state components are relatively cheap when mass produced.

Here is what I need. Ultra short throw, good optics, scanning laser with infinite contrast, 1080p and at least 2000 lumens capable of 150 inch image.

I would be willing to bet that the manufacturing cost would be less than $2000. I am willing to pay $3000.

When is someone going to mass produce something really good?
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post #2 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 09:36 AM
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I'm not sure what your are talking about. They already produce solid models at decent prices. 1080p, 3d, etc. have all become pretty standard in almost all projectors.
They just don't produce what you are looking for cheap. Niche products are always more expensive.
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post #3 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 09:53 AM
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You have to take markets for example. What a select few people need is not marketable compared to what the masses need. It is not economical. At the end of the day its a business. While these tactics might not be the best or most morale; there are still quality products that people are buying and driving up sales which further the tech that you the few are searching for. This makes it become more available in the future.

Take fighter jets for example. The current F-15E is still using 1980s era tech. A lot of it is updated (systems, avionics, weapons, etc) but for the most part a lot of the stuff is old OLD stuff. Even the new F22 and F35 are using DATED technology. Why? Its cheaper, more available, widely understood, and acceptable for today's needs. If everybody needed a bently or a lambo we would all be driving those but we dont. That is why Hondas, Hyundais, and Focuses are seen more because they sell and are acceptable for today's expectations from a vehicle.

I do understand where you're coming from... but this is where the "you gotta pay to play" comes into effect. It's unfortunate but very true.
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post #4 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicktx27 View Post
I'm not sure what your are talking about. They already produce solid models at decent prices. 1080p, 3d, etc. have all become pretty standard in almost all projectors.
They just don't produce what you are looking for cheap. Niche products are always more expensive.
I have been waiting for years? I am ready to upgrade to laser or LED?
The tech has been here now, all a company just has to do is make it. Hell give me a
couple of design engineers and I could guide them myself its that obvious.

Lets not get rid of a very lucrative bulb market just yet, when we can milk it
some more but, lets have a few laser/led models we can upgrade in a hurry in
case the competition jumps the gun and tries to leave the rest behind!
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post #5 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Laredo View Post
I have been waiting for years? I am ready to upgrade to laser or LED?
The tech has been here now, all a company just has to do is make it. Hell give me a
couple of design engineers and I could guide them myself its that obvious.

Lets not get rid of a very lucrative bulb market just yet, when we can milk it
some more but, lets have a few laser/led models we can upgrade in a hurry in
case the competition jumps the gun and tries to leave the rest behind!
Sounds like you need to go into business for yourself if you have this all figured out. BTW, I believe optoma just released an LED projector and it's gotten decent reviews.
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post #6 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 10:03 AM
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There is a very praised laser Sony than is around $3500 and puts out between 2000-3000 measured lumens depending on the settings. It's either 1080x1920 or 1600x1920 and has slightly better than movie theater contrast. Not exactly what you're looking for, but close.
You only need 950lumens to get 14FtL on a 150" screen, so that Sony could easily fill a 14-16foot screen and be brighter than a local cinema..much brighter.

As far as I know, nobody uses scanning laser anymore because it sparkles very visibly and people find it distracting.

For contrast, is there a particular projector you've seen in person (maybe your own, or at a store, or in theater) that you've tched nd said; "I would like MORE contrast than that thing has, it doesn't look very good to me". And have you yet seen anything that you've been pretty happy with?

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post #7 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Let me give a few examples of what I am talking about.

Phillips makes the Philips Screeneo HDP1590. Looks to be a truly innovative product. Ultra short throw so now I no longer have to listen to fan noise. But they put a 800x1280 chip in it!!! Why? Why are large screen markets still using low res chip? My cell phone has more pixels!!

LG makes the the PF85u. Looks to be a truly innovative product. No more lamps and color shifts to worry about. But they put a cheap optics in it. Why? The difference between good optics and cheap optics is probably 10 percent of cost. Also why make it so small so that fan noise is high. No one is going to use this for business purposes due to the lumens being so low.

Microvision makes a laser projector with perfect focus better color gamut than LED. But they put a 480 chip in it. Why? 480? Seriously.

This is what I am talking about. It's like the market always takes two steps forward and always one and a half back.
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post #8 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post
Let me give a few examples of what I am talking about.

Phillips makes the Philips Screeneo HDP1590. Looks to be a truly innovative product. Ultra short throw so now I no longer have to listen to fan noise. But they put a 800x1280 chip in it!!! Why? Why are large screen markets still using low res chip? My cell phone has more pixels!!

LG makes the the PF85u. Looks to be a truly innovative product. No more lamps and color shifts to worry about. But they put a cheap optics in it. Why? The difference between good optics and cheap optics is probably 10 percent of cost. Also why make it so small so that fan noise is high. No one is going to use this for business purposes due to the lumens being so low.

Microvision makes a laser projector with perfect focus better color gamut than LED. But they put a 480 chip in it. Why? 480? Seriously.

This is what I am talking about. It's like the market always takes two steps forward and always one and a half back.
So what's your company name again?

One reason is demand. It isn't there. If you want ultra short throw, pony up the dough. It's a niche market.
Otherwise, make a hush box and buy a decent projector.

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post #9 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nicktx27 View Post
So what's your company name again?

One reason is demand. It isn't there. If you want ultra short throw, pony up the dough. Otherwise, make a hush box and buy a decent projector.
If manufactures build it they will come.....
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post #10 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 12:26 PM
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If manufactures build it they will come.....
So when are you releasing your model? Seriously. If it's so easy then build it yourself.
There is not a high enough demand for it.
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post #11 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 12:38 PM
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imo, projectors already represent the best display option available. a 'good' projector in an appropriate room will give a better picture than lcd, or plasma. oled may be better, but I haven't seen one yet.


I do find it funny you think it's easy to achieve infinite contrast and 2000lumens at the same time though. it's also pretty unrealistic to expect good optics and a short throw. it's kind of like saying that because we have cars that produce 1000HP on pump gas, and cars that get 80mph, we should be able to get cars that make a ton of HP while getting amazing fuel mileage. you just don't get to have both.
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post #12 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nicktx27 View Post
So when are you releasing your model? Seriously. If it's so easy then build it yourself.
There is not a high enough demand for it.
Your missing the point. The reason why demand is low is due to the complexity, maintenance (bulb) and image quality of projectors.

My point is that all these technologies exist to build a significantly better projector and are relativity inexpensive when mass produced.

It's like this market is stuck in niche mode when it really doesn't have to be.
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post #13 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post
Let me give a few examples of what I am talking about.

Phillips makes the Philips Screeneo HDP1590. Looks to be a truly innovative product. Ultra short throw so now I no longer have to listen to fan noise. But they put a 800x1280 chip in it!!! Why? Why are large screen markets still using low res chip? My cell phone has more pixels!!
likely because the optics of an ultra short throw projector are so bad, nobody who actually wants 1080p would consider it a good choice. the higher the resolution, the better the optics need to be. this is why making a UHD projector is not as simple as tossing a new chip in.
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LG makes the the PF85u. Looks to be a truly innovative product. No more lamps and color shifts to worry about. But they put a cheap optics in it. Why? The difference between good optics and cheap optics is probably 10 percent of cost. Also why make it so small so that fan noise is high. No one is going to use this for business purposes due to the lumens being so low.
optics are a HUGE cost actually. there's a reason camera lenses cost $1500 and up.
size is a choice. they chose portable over quiet, and my gut is that's where the current market for low price LED projectors is. I'd rather have a projector I could take with me to a buddy's house, shoot a good picture up on the wall, and then take it home when done. if I'm going to get something to install permanently(and therefore prefer a larger and quieter case) I'd want a better projector than the LG
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This is what I am talking about. It's like the market always takes two steps forward and always one and a half back.
I kind of agree with this. it is frustrating that 95% of ppl shop based on price instead of based on quality.
but with the new solid state projectors, you just have to remember they are pretty new still, and unproven in many cases. the cheap ones don't get black enough to compete with the high end projectors out there, and when the performance is similar, the led/laser models are way more money. not everybody wants to spend an extra 1000bux to save 400 on lamps... so it's hard for them to compete straight on right now. they are trying to fit into another market(portable, small, simple) where standard projectors still struggle a bit. if you want a high end LED projector with great performance, you need to spend a bit more right now. but they are out there
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post #14 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 12:54 PM
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Your missing the point. The reason why demand is low is due to the complexity, maintenance (bulb) and image quality of projectors.

My point is that all these technologies exist to build a significantly better projector and are relativity inexpensive when mass produced.

It's like this market is stuck in niche mode when it really doesn't have to be.
as of today, I think a benq w1070 would offer the best picture quality for the money for about 90% of the ppl I know. however, maybe only 5% of them have a room that's suitable for projectors.


projectors will continue to be 'niche' because even a super quiet, ultra short throw, 5000lumen, led projector will look like poop in a bright room.
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post #15 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 12:56 PM
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Your missing the point. The reason why demand is low is due to the complexity, maintenance (bulb) and image quality of projectors.

My point is that all these technologies exist to build a significantly better projector and are relativity inexpensive when mass produced.

It's like this market is stuck in niche mode when it really doesn't have to be.
Actually, I think you are missing the point, or refuse to see it.
Demand isn't low due to complexity, bulb, etc.. People buy standard projectors all the time and they have those same issues. But, the demand for standard projection is, and has been, there for some time. Most looking to buy projectors already have space for them.
The market is niche because it's niche.
Even if they do build one it would be prohibitively expensive for the mass market. There is a reason that large LCDs are selling like hang busters right now.
If you can build a better one for less do it.
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post #16 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
imo, projectors already represent the best display option available. a 'good' projector in an appropriate room will give a better picture than lcd, or plasma. oled may be better, but I haven't seen one yet.


I do find it funny you think it's easy to achieve infinite contrast and 2000lumens at the same time though. it's also pretty unrealistic to expect good optics and a short throw. it's kind of like saying that because we have cars that produce 1000HP on pump gas, and cars that get 80mph, we should be able to get cars that make a ton of HP while getting amazing fuel mileage. you just don't get to have both.
Actually scanning lasers have infinite contrast.
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post #17 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Actually, I think you are missing the point, or refuse to see it.
Demand isn't low due to complexity, bulb, etc.. People buy standard projectors all the time and they have those same issues. But, the demand for standard projection is, and has been, there for some time. Most looking to buy projectors already have space for them.
The market is niche because it's niche.
Even if they do build one it would be prohibitively expensive for the mass market. There is a reason that large LCDs are selling like hang busters right now.
If you can build a better one for less do it.
You're missing the point. Electronic components are relatively inexpensive when mass produced. It doesn't matter if it's laptop, a cell phone or a projector. All a manufacturer has to do is assemble the right components to make something significantly better. If this market would get away from the typical projector design and move to ultra short throw and laser it would be a paradigm shift and demand would go up significantly. Demand goes up cost goes down and we all win.

Also, to your point about building a one of projector, most people can't build things better than large manufacturing companies (Optoma, Benq, Epson, etc.) because they simply don't have the tools nor the time to do so.
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post #18 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post
You're missing the point. Electronic components are relatively inexpensive when mass produced. It doesn't matter if it's laptop, a cell phone or a projector. All a manufacturer has to do is assemble the right components to make something significantly better. If this market would get away from the typical projector design and move to ultra short throw and laser it would be a paradigm shift and demand would go up significantly. Demand goes up cost goes down and we all win.

Also, to your point about building a one of projector, most people can't build things better than large manufacturing companies (Optoma, Benq, Epson, etc.) because they simply don't have the tools nor the time to do so.
That's all manufactures have to do? Slap some parts together and viola! Yet, you can't go and start a company and build your own?
Whatever keeps you going man.
There's a reason it isn't being done.
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post #19 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
likely because the optics of an ultra short throw projector are so bad, nobody who actually wants 1080p would consider it a good choice. the higher the resolution, the better the optics need to be. this is why making a UHD projector is not as simple as tossing a new chip in.

optics are a HUGE cost actually. there's a reason camera lenses cost $1500 and up.
size is a choice. they chose portable over quiet, and my gut is that's where the current market for low price LED projectors is. I'd rather have a projector I could take with me to a buddy's house, shoot a good picture up on the wall, and then take it home when done. if I'm going to get something to install permanently(and therefore prefer a larger and quieter case) I'd want a better projector than the LG


I kind of agree with this. it is frustrating that 95% of ppl shop based on price instead of based on quality.
but with the new solid state projectors, you just have to remember they are pretty new still, and unproven in many cases. the cheap ones don't get black enough to compete with the high end projectors out there, and when the performance is similar, the led/laser models are way more money. not everybody wants to spend an extra 1000bux to save 400 on lamps... so it's hard for them to compete straight on right now. they are trying to fit into another market(portable, small, simple) where standard projectors still struggle a bit. if you want a high end LED projector with great performance, you need to spend a bit more right now. but they are out there
I'm talking about decent optics not ultra high end optics. I would be willing to bet that the zoom optics of a Benq W1070 cost less than 100 dollars. Why in the world hasn't someone put an led light engine into a chassis similar to a W1070?

It makes no sense for the market to start using a superior light engine but only to hinder the technology by using small casings (high fan noise), poor optics and a low res diamond chip.

This is what I am talking about. Two steps forward and 1 and a half back.
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post #20 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nicktx27 View Post
That's all manufactures have to do? Slap some parts together and viola! Yet, you can't go and start a company and build your own?
Whatever keeps you going man.
There's a reason it isn't being done.
Man you must have a lot of free time and unlimited capital.....
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post #21 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 01:45 PM
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The thread title is amusing as though there isn't a single good projector out there rather than there isn't some magical projector you want at the price you want to pay.

When is someone going to make a decent car? I want electric equivalent mileage, Ferrari performance and Lexus luxury all for 10k.

ROB
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post #22 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 01:45 PM
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Man you must have a lot of free time and unlimited capital.....
Oh, I was under the impression that I could just slap some parts together. Now I need excess capitol? What else do I need?
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post #23 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 01:46 PM
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The thread title is amusing as though there isn't a single good projector out there rather than there isn't some magical projector you want at the price you want to pay.

When is someone going to make a decent car? I want electric equivalent mileage, Ferrari performance and Lexus luxury all for 10k.
Just slap some parts together. They're on the market now and cheap.
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post #24 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh, I was under the impression that I could just slap some parts together. Now I need excess capitol? What else do I need?
Again missing the point. The global market isn't set up to buy individual components for projectors. Now you are really talking niche market. A market where people who want to assemble their own projectors.

How much do you think a laptop would cost if you bought all the individual pieces that make it up assuming that you could find them?

The point is that electronics mass produced are crazy cheap. My cell phone has 1080p resolution, infinite contrast, and more computing power than a desktop bought a few years back, a better camera than the one I bought a few years back, an led light source and is manufactured for a cost of around 150 dollars.

The point is that all the pieces off the puzzle of making a relatively inexpensive high quality projector are there. When is someone going build it?
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post #25 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 02:23 PM
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Again missing the point. The global market isn't set up to buy individual components for projectors. Now you are really talking niche market. A market where people who want to assemble their own projectors.

How much do you think a laptop would cost if you bought all the individual pieces that make it up assuming that you could find them?

The point is that electronics mass produced are crazy cheap. My cell phone has 1080p resolution, infinite contrast, and more computing power than a desktop bought a few years back, a better camera than the one I bought a few years back, an led light source and is manufactured for a cost of around 150 dollars.

The point is that all the pieces off the puzzle of making a relatively inexpensive high quality projector are there. When is someone going build it?
Well, have at it.
You're the only one not getting it. Components are only one factor. You don't need capitol to design one. Design it and either sell it or go to the bank and have them bankroll your endeavor.
You're talking about economies of scale, but you don't understand how it works in relation to business practices.
If it could have been done it would have been.
As the other poster said, you're asking for a magical device for a price you "want" to pay.
To your last point
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The point is that all the pieces off the puzzle of making a relatively inexpensive high quality projector are there. When is someone going build it?
They do. $800 gets you a solid projector as stated before. What more do you want?
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post #26 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh, I was under the impression that I could just slap some parts together. Now I need excess capitol? What else do I need?
Again missing the point. The global market isn't set up to buy the individual components of projectors. Now you are really taking niche market. People who want to assemble their own projectors.

Imagine buying all the components that make up a laptop, assuming that you could find them. How much do you think you would pay?

The point is that electronics mass produced are crazy cheap. My cell phone has 1080p resolution, infinite contrast, more computing power than a desktop purchased a few years back, a better camera than the one I purchased a few years back and an led light source and the cost to manufacture was less than 200 dollars!

All the pieces of the puzzle to build a projector significantly better for a reasonable price are there but no one is taking the lead.

I mean even though this missed the mark with the PF85U LG is leading the pack with regard to value and innovation and they are not really considered a significant projector manufacturer!! The big players like Optoma, Epson and Benq should be embarrassed that they didn't build something like this years ago.
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post #27 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 02:39 PM
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Again missing the point. The global market isn't set up to buy the individual components of projectors. Now you are really taking niche market. People who want to assemble their own projectors.

Imagine buying all the components that make up a laptop, assuming that you could find them. How much do you think you would pay?

The point is that electronics mass produced are crazy cheap. My cell phone has 1080p resolution, infinite contrast, more computing power than a desktop purchased a few years back, a better camera than the one I purchased a few years back and an led light source and the cost to manufacture was less than 200 dollars!

All the pieces of the puzzle to build a projector significantly better for a reasonable price are there but no one is taking the lead.

I mean even though this missed the mark with the PF85U LG is leading the pack with regard to value and innovation and they are not really considered a significant projector manufacturer!! The big players like Optoma, Epson and Benq should be embarrassed that they didn't build something like this years ago.
Ok, you clearly don't get it or don't want to. Several folks here have explained this to you and you're still not listening.
Good luck to you.
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post #28 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 02:43 PM
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I would be willing to bet that the zoom optics of a Benq W1070 cost less than 100 dollars. Why in the world hasn't someone put an led light engine into a chassis similar to a W1070?
I thought you wanted ultra short throw, not something like the w1070. Ultra short throw optics that can resolve a 1080p image are significantly more expensive to produce.

Look, your options are:

1) Buy what fits what you want now for a high cost
2) Buy what mostly fits what you want now for a low cost
3) Wait for the tech to improve

The reality is that what you're asking for is still far less convenient than a TV, and as such will remain a niche product. As long as projectors require lighting control, they will remain niche products, even ignoring any other issues (and ultra short throw optics sure as hell introduce other usability issues, because have fun if you wall is slightly uneven!).

You're asking for all the latest and best tech to be crammed into a box for cheap without considering how those parts interact or what kinds of reliability issues they can create. That's the kind of Homer's Dream Car thinking that leads to Chinese knockoff projectors with great specs on paper and terrible images on screen.

Projectors have been getting better by leaps and bounds over the past few years. You can now buy a 1080p LED projector with 1000 lumens for the price a bulb-based 720p projector with similar lumen output would cost you a few years ago. And you can get a bulb-based 1080p projector with much higher lumen output than either for a lot less. Things will continue to get better. Stomping your feet and wondering why it isn't here right now doesn't do anything. By the time what you want is available you'll just be wondering why it isn't 4K instead.
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post #29 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, have at it.
You're the only one not getting it. Components are only one factor. You don't need capitol to design one. Design it and either sell it or go to the bank and have them bankroll your endeavor.
You're talking about economies of scale, but you don't understand how it works in relation to business practices.
If it could have been done it would have been.
As the other poster said, you're asking for a magical device for a price you "want" to pay.
To your last point

They do. $800 gets you a solid projector as stated before. What more do you want?
Not magic. I just don't want a noisy, heat generating light source above my head while I watch a movie. I want the color gamut of an led or laser and I want infinite or near infinite contrast.

Considering the way other technology progresses we should have had this 5 years ago and been discussing projectors like this on this forum, 3k or less.

I really think that in the distant future someone will perfect cold fusion and we will still be discussing bulb based projectors on this forum!!
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post #30 of 80 Old 06-29-2014, 03:11 PM
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Not magic. I just don't want a noisy, heat generating light source above my head while I watch a movie. I want the color gamut of an led or laser and I want infinite or near infinite contrast.

Considering the way other technology progresses we should have had this 5 years ago and been discussing projectors like this on this forum, 3k or less.

I really think that in the distant future someone will perfect cold fusion and we will still be discussing bulb based projectors on this forum!!
I think you are very ignorant of the tech and it's ability.
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