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post #1 of 9 Old 07-07-2014, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
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100" Cinegray + ViewSonic 8300 - How to mount?

Im purchasing office equipment in a large meeting space. There is a lot of ambient light coming through windows. I'm trying to search for the best projector and screen.

We have a small mobile cart that we plan to place the projector on. We don't know if we want a mobile screen or a fixed screen.

But what is for certain, is we need an ambient light rejecting screen. Does the projector matter a lot in cases where there is ambient light? Obviously, it should be 1080p, and project a quality image.

What do you think about a 100" Cinegray 5D mixed with VS 8300?

Can the VS be stored on a cart? I used the projectorcentral calculator and didn't see it recommend a specific height.
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post #2 of 9 Old 07-08-2014, 07:29 AM
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1080p isn't that important in business. You need text to be readable, so distance to screen size and brightness matter.

The Elite screen is decent. Cheaper than Black Diamond, but not as good at light rejection. Image quality will suffer a bit with the screen optics, but should be fine.

Considering that you are looking at a fairly expensive screen, I would be pairing it with the BRIGHTEST projector you can find. I would take something like the Optoma EH501 over the Viewsonic for sure.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/Optoma-EH501.htm

Likewise, you may find a LCD projector with 3,000 lumens actually delivers better color brightness than the DLP models, but perhaps at a bit of a premium on cost.

Oh, and any projector can be mounted under a screen. How much offset it has is lens/manufacturer/projector specific, so may require a read of the owner's manual to find out, but a bit of keystone correction with a business class projector isn't the end of the world typically.

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post #3 of 9 Old 07-08-2014, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post
1080p isn't that important in business. You need text to be readable, so distance to screen size and brightness matter.

The Elite screen is decent. Cheaper than Black Diamond, but not as good at light rejection. Image quality will suffer a bit with the screen optics, but should be fine.

Considering that you are looking at a fairly expensive screen, I would be pairing it with the BRIGHTEST projector you can find. I would take something like the Optoma EH501 over the Viewsonic for sure.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/Optoma-EH501.htm

Likewise, you may find a LCD projector with 3,000 lumens actually delivers better color brightness than the DLP models, but perhaps at a bit of a premium on cost.

Oh, and any projector can be mounted under a screen. How much offset it has is lens/manufacturer/projector specific, so may require a read of the owner's manual to find out, but a bit of keystone correction with a business class projector isn't the end of the world typically.
So I would have to justify the expensive projector, is there a reason why you must pair the good/expensive screen with the brightest projector? And any particular reason why you chose Optoma-Eh501 over others?

So any projector I pick will do well on a mobile cart about a few feet off the ground? It just matters where its positioned? Will screen size affect this?

Bonus question - Since the black diamonds are only fixed screens and not retractable, what mounting solutions will we need? Professional installation? Are there any light rejection screens you'd recommend?

Thank you so much!!

Last edited by vangeliss; 07-08-2014 at 09:35 AM.
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post #4 of 9 Old 07-08-2014, 09:43 AM
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So I would have to justify the expensive projector, is there a reason why you must pair the good/expensive screen with the brightest projector? And any particular reason why you chose Optoma-Eh501 over others?
I believe the screen is well over $1,000, but it's the projector which creates the image and delivers the light on screen. Single chip DLP projectors with 2x color wheels don't deliver anywhere near their claimed lumen rating with color content and this significantly impacts what you get on screen as far as brightness. So a 3,000 lumen projector, may deliver under 1,000 lumens of color brightness, and the 5,000 lumen projector may only deliver 2,000 or so lumen of color brightness. So, don't fall for the 'brightness' trap alone.

But, at the end of it all, boardroom projection thrives on brightness above all else. So, it makes sense to get a brighter projector. Keep in mind, there isn't a long line of 5,000 lumen 1080p projectors for under $2,000 on the market, so 'expensive' is not at all the proper word for what you are buying into. You are getting the brightest, least expensive model around, by a long shot.

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So any projector I pick will do well on a mobile cart about a few feet off the ground? It just matters where its positioned? Will screen size affect this?
All projectors have some offset, typically several inches or more, and should be placed below the bottom edge of the screen when table (cart) mounted. The size of the screen affects this offset amount, and the specific projector affects this as well. But, it's not a huge factor in commercial, mobile cart projection. You can tilt the projector some and use keystone compensation to correct as necessary. The EH501 has a bit of optical lens shift which allows the image to be moved up/down just a bit as well, but it sounds like it may want to be about 7.5" below a 100" diagonal image.

From page 27 of the owner's manual: http://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf/...anual_7726.pdf

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post #5 of 9 Old 07-08-2014, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post
I believe the screen is well over $1,000, but it's the projector which creates the image and delivers the light on screen. Single chip DLP projectors with 2x color wheels don't deliver anywhere near their claimed lumen rating with color content and this significantly impacts what you get on screen as far as brightness. So a 3,000 lumen projector, may deliver under 1,000 lumens of color brightness, and the 5,000 lumen projector may only deliver 2,000 or so lumen of color brightness. So, don't fall for the 'brightness' trap alone.
So the better projector utilizes the screen fully?(is that properly worded, or is there a better way?)

So the actual Lumen rating does not indicate actual brightness? And that is dependent on the actual chip specification? Looking at that earlier ViewSonic, is there a way to know how much actual brightness it's projecting? And what kind of chip it has? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-537-_-Product

I mainly ask so that when I am justifying the better projector, I can validate the better one and invalidate the worse projector.

Quote:
But, at the end of it all, boardroom projection thrives on brightness above all else. So, it makes sense to get a brighter projector. Keep in mind, there isn't a long line of 5,000 lumen 1080p projectors for under $2,000 on the market, so 'expensive' is not at all the proper word for what you are buying into. You are getting the brightest, least expensive model around, by a long shot.
So for a big meeting space, with ambient light(we have blinds but I dont know how much they will help), where we will hold meetings but also have entertainment(movies/games). The priority of factors are #1 - Type of screen(gain, manufacturer etc..), #2 - Projector - Lumens, resolution, lens stilting?
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post #6 of 9 Old 07-08-2014, 10:57 AM
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It isn't so much the chip as the colorwheel. An RGB colorwheel has balanced color brightness and white brightness, but is rarely if ever rated above 2000lumens.
Shrinking the size of the RGB segments and adding a clear/white segment lowers color brightness because there's less RGB space, but increases white brightness because that clear section lets through about 3X as much white light.

Typically, as lumens increase past 2000, color brightness drops steadily as white brightness climbs.. until you get into the dual-lamp projectors around 4500lumens.
It's common for cheaper 3000-3500lumen DLPs to output colors (and balanced images..for accurate photos and movies, but not necessarily important for slideshows and graphs) around 650-850lumens. The more expensive models, using both the white segment AND a higher powered lamp can reach colors up to 1000-1500 and white brightness past 3500!

projectorcentral.com is a helpful resource. Even though it's near impossible to get colorwheel information outside of service manuals, lamp wattage is easy to find and often a good clue how much actual brightness you can expect.

Professional reviews tend to take brightness measurements which are often lower and more realistic than those claimed by the manufacturer.

Last edited by Ftoast; 07-08-2014 at 11:11 AM.
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post #7 of 9 Old 07-08-2014, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post
I believe the screen is well over $1,000, but it's the projector which creates the image and delivers the light on screen. Single chip DLP projectors with 2x color wheels don't deliver anywhere near their claimed lumen rating with color content and this significantly impacts what you get on screen as far as brightness. So a 3,000 lumen projector, may deliver under 1,000 lumens of color brightness, and the 5,000 lumen projector may only deliver 2,000 or so lumen of color brightness. So, don't fall for the 'brightness' trap alone.

But, at the end of it all, boardroom projection thrives on brightness above all else. So, it makes sense to get a brighter projector. Keep in mind, there isn't a long line of 5,000 lumen 1080p projectors for under $2,000 on the market, so 'expensive' is not at all the proper word for what you are buying into. You are getting the brightest, least expensive model around, by a long shot.


All projectors have some offset, typically several inches or more, and should be placed below the bottom edge of the screen when table (cart) mounted. The size of the screen affects this offset amount, and the specific projector affects this as well. But, it's not a huge factor in commercial, mobile cart projection. You can tilt the projector some and use keystone compensation to correct as necessary. The EH501 has a bit of optical lens shift which allows the image to be moved up/down just a bit as well, but it sounds like it may want to be about 7.5" below a 100" diagonal image.

From page 27 of the owner's manual: http://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf/...anual_7726.pdf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
It isn't so much the chip as the colorwheel. An RGB colorwheel has balanced color brightness and white brightness, but is rarely if ever rated above 2000lumens.
Shrinking the size of the RGB segments and adding a clear/white segment lowers color brightness because there's less RGB space, but increases white brightness because that clear section lets through about 3X as much white light.

Typically, as lumens increase past 2000, color brightness drops steadily as white brightness climbs.. until you get into the dual-lamp projectors around 4500lumens.
It's common for cheaper 3000-3500lumen DLPs to output colors (and balanced images..for accurate photos and movies, but not necessarily important for slideshows and graphs) around 650-850lumens. The more expensive models, using both the white segment AND a higher powered lamp can reach colors up to 1000-1500 and white brightness past 3500!

projectorcentral.com is a helpful resource. Even though it's near impossible to get colorwheel information outside of service manuals, lamp wattage is easy to find and often a good clue how much actual brightness you can expect.

Professional reviews tend to take brightness measurements which are often lower and more realistic than those claimed by the manufacturer.
Firstly, thank you for taking the time to explain that to me, I really appreciate it!

How would you word it to a laymen, when trying to justify getting http://www.projectorcentral.com/Optoma-EH501.htm over http://www.projectorcentral.com/ViewSonic-Pro8300.htm, when it pertains to also getting a good screen? I need to justify the cost and technology. Also, any recommendations for actual screens between 500-700? They have to be ceiling mountable.
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post #8 of 9 Old 07-08-2014, 07:21 PM
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An in-ceiling screen? Who is going to mount this? Is it supposed to be electric or manual?

Realistically, a motorized in-ceiling screen of any quality is typically pretty close to $2,000, and you may very well have to meet plenum requirements during the installation process.

I'm not sure what your company does, professionally, but there are commercial A/V companies that can really explain it all quite well and have a good conversation about why better products are worth more money, but at the end of the day, you want lumens on screen and the Optoma delivers more for a reasonable price compared to the Viewsonic. I also find that Optoma generally has better build quality and support services in place compared to Viewsonic. For screens, you are in trouble because a good screen isn't $500. Cheap screens are in that price range. There are some electric screens which will have waves in the material within just a few years that are in that price range. But, that's a discussion point more than anything else. If your company is fine with the screen getting a bunch of waves in the material, then buy a non-tab-tensioned electric screen, and that's just what you will end up with. I have seen brand new screens have waves in the material out of the box. It's just a reality for non-tensioned screens.

At the budgetary price point you are talking about, I would do a wall mounted pull down, or maybe electric screen and an inexpensive 1280x800 ceiling mounted projector with a wall plate if I could. If you've got to roll it around, likely a 1280x800 projector still. It's kind of confusing to have a screen mounted on the wall, but then not have a projector which is mounted to the ceiling. These aren't exactly portable projectors we're talking about.

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post #9 of 9 Old 07-09-2014, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post
An in-ceiling screen? Who is going to mount this? Is it supposed to be electric or manual?

Realistically, a motorized in-ceiling screen of any quality is typically pretty close to $2,000, and you may very well have to meet plenum requirements during the installation process.

I'm not sure what your company does, professionally, but there are commercial A/V companies that can really explain it all quite well and have a good conversation about why better products are worth more money, but at the end of the day, you want lumens on screen and the Optoma delivers more for a reasonable price compared to the Viewsonic. I also find that Optoma generally has better build quality and support services in place compared to Viewsonic. For screens, you are in trouble because a good screen isn't $500. Cheap screens are in that price range. There are some electric screens which will have waves in the material within just a few years that are in that price range. But, that's a discussion point more than anything else. If your company is fine with the screen getting a bunch of waves in the material, then buy a non-tab-tensioned electric screen, and that's just what you will end up with. I have seen brand new screens have waves in the material out of the box. It's just a reality for non-tensioned screens.

At the budgetary price point you are talking about, I would do a wall mounted pull down, or maybe electric screen and an inexpensive 1280x800 ceiling mounted projector with a wall plate if I could. If you've got to roll it around, likely a 1280x800 projector still. It's kind of confusing to have a screen mounted on the wall, but then not have a projector which is mounted to the ceiling. These aren't exactly portable projectors we're talking about.
Thank you for your informative response. Let me clarify a few things:

We want the screen to be retractable from the ceiling tile, since the placement will be above a wall mounted LCD TV, the screen will retract down over the TV. Currently, we are getting a quote on how much it will be to install the ceiling screen and a projector from the building management.

Can you point me to any good screens you can recommend, that are tensioned and don't have waves? All I am finding is Elite Screens on Amazon and I'm frustrated that I can't find any other brand other than Black Diamond and Innovative Screens on there, which are in the thousands, obviously way out of the price range. I think max, we can spend $800-$1000 on a screen, if it makes a huge difference. Preferably 100" minimum.
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