Dual Dmd Chip In Sequence (Possibility/Feasiblity for Diy?) - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 1Likes
  • 1 Post By Mik James
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 28 Old 07-13-2014, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Mik James's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Atlantic Canada
Posts: 853
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Dual Dmd Chip In Sequence (Possibility/Feasiblity for Diy?)

Whilst engaging in my hobby of browsing the web for random home theater related garble (and occasionally science ).

I ran across a forum post on Dual Dmd chip in sequence projectors.
Or the implementation of 2 dmd chips one after the other within the optical path to achieve incredible contrast (hopefully).

The forum user was questioning why this had not been implemented already in commercial projectors, but I started thinking how difficult it may be to buy a couple of cheap led/dlp projectors and get to work on combining the hardware and optical path.

At this point this is of course a theoretical discussion (provided any discussion develops) as I don't currently have the access funds to do this aside from perhaps a couple of dirt cheap pico projectors.

So on to the challenges of such a project:

1) Disassembling and rebuilding the multiple light paths of 2 projectors into one optical path with dmds in sequence.

2) Aligning the dmds, would need a fine adjustment mechanism of some sort and resolution test pattern at the very least.

3) Utilizing both led lamps into a single light path?

4) 5) 6) Share your thoughts, probable, not probable, downright inconceivable?

Last edited by Mik James; 07-13-2014 at 09:17 AM.
Mik James is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 28 Old 07-13-2014, 09:38 AM
Advanced Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 732
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked: 104
You'd more likely just use one light-source and have to trick the other into believing it's working or just let it continue working while not being used..then again, I'm not sure if LED models even have a "lamp" failsafe/check at all.

You'll need a lens that you probably won't have or some other way of keeping the beam straight (rather than expanding) between the DMDs.

It might be safer to tinker with a battery-powered device but I'd leave that up to a person with more electrical knowledge than I have to say for sure.

The lower resolution, cheaper models might be easier to try aligning as well as less saddening if/when they break.

I certainly hope someone can get one of these going, it'd be amazing if it works.
Ftoast is online now  
post #3 of 28 Old 07-13-2014, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Mik James's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Atlantic Canada
Posts: 853
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Interesting. I hadn't yet considered how the light would react when bounced of the first dmd.
That would sort of blow this out the window as a diy project. Unless someone can think of a way to calculate the lens needed based on distance between the chips, angles, etc.
Then one might have a chance at having a lens made for reasonable cost.
Though that could be entirely counter productive when dealing with cheap pico projectors that may very well cost less than the lens

The idea behind using both projector light sources would be based on the idea that one could send both projectors/component sets the same signal. Thereby leaving the costs associated with custom control of 2 dmds to the already mass produced projectors.
Though that would require a very synced in signal. Which may not be probable with current signal standards?
Mik James is offline  
post #4 of 28 Old 07-13-2014, 01:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 3,922
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 200 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Zeiss already has a projector that implements this idea. There are already several threads on this forum discussing this topic. Here's the Zeiss projector:

http://www.zeiss.com/planetariums/en...ts/velvet.html


As you can see, this projector isn't aimed at home theater. I think the major reason this hasn't been brought over to the home theater space has to do with the high cost to build such a projector. To implement this properly you'll need to be able to adjust timing of the LEDs or a color wheel. Unless you know how to write code good luck getting this to work as a DIY projector. The timing of the wheel's segments/LEDs in relation to the mirrors' movements is critical.

------------------------------------

Look What AVS Made Me Do!
Seegs108 is online now  
post #5 of 28 Old 07-13-2014, 07:02 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 732
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked: 104
I'd say the high price has more to do with it being a specialized device (currently one of a kind) made by an expensive brand that can basically tell anyone who questions the price, "you don't like it, get it from someone else...Ohhhh that's right..you can't". The only competition would be an even more expensive, custom, backlit domed screen or another projection device with much poorer contrast. They also require much better and more expensive lensing to avoid as much halo-ing and CA as possible since their application is practically a testpattern for such problems. Regular video should be much more forgiving.

Building the assembly for it shouldn't cost more than any other radical redesign/new-case build. The parts don't have to be anything too special, and should in that regard equal a bit less than the parts cost of two inexpensive projectors.
I'm sure the total change for the assembly isn't a small thing at all, but once it's done the whole thing shouldn't have to be that expensive. I hope.

Last edited by Ftoast; 07-13-2014 at 07:08 PM.
Ftoast is online now  
post #6 of 28 Old 07-13-2014, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Mik James's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Atlantic Canada
Posts: 853
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Zeiss already has a projector that implements this idea. There are already several threads on this forum discussing this topic. Here's the Zeiss projector:

http://www.zeiss.com/planetariums/en...ts/velvet.html


As you can see, this projector isn't aimed at home theater. I think the major reason this hasn't been brought over to the home theater space has to do with the high cost to build such a projector. To implement this properly you'll need to be able to adjust timing of the LEDs or a color wheel. Unless you know how to write code good luck getting this to work as a DIY projector. The timing of the wheel's segments/LEDs in relation to the mirrors' movements is critical.
Could you elaborate? Light travels pretty quick, as long as both dmd's mirrors move in unison via the same signal, why would the leds need to do anything differently?
Mik James is offline  
post #7 of 28 Old 07-13-2014, 09:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 3,922
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 200 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post
Could you elaborate? Light travels pretty quick, as long as both dmd's mirrors move in unison via the same signal, why would the leds need to do anything differently?
I'm not talking about the light specifically but more about the processing going along with this setup and configuring it properly. Also, now that I think about it, I don't think this could be done with LEDs, at least LEDs that have color filters directly over the diode. The first DMD in the configuration runs in it's native greyscale, from there the light passes through a color wheel and hits the DMD as one would normally function in a single chip configuration. The first greyscale DMD is just a contrast enhancer and it's mirrors wouldn't function as if it needed to produce millions of different color combinations because if it did you'd get a lot less contrast out of the system. It wouldn't need to rotate it's mirrors anywhere as quickly as the secondary "color" DMD would and therefore you'd need to write new code to run the DMD's properly which is why I commented on the timing of the system. This is how the Zeiss Velvet works. That isn't to say your idea can't get "better" contrast, but it won't be close to what the Zeiss can do.

Now, there are other ideas to boost contrast that don't involve two DMDs. One of the ideas is to use an LCD panel to act as a "filter" to do the same thing the DMD in the other scenario is doing. The problem I see with this configuration is the response time of LCD panels which are considerably slower to DMD response time. It's roughly 2ms vs 16 microseconds or DMDs being 125 times faster. This would mean the DMD would be slave to the LCD in regards to contrast, motion handling, 3D ghosting, ect to match the LCD panels response time and obviously the two latter things are far worse on LCD based systems which means this DLP system would share most of LCDs technological shortcomings.

------------------------------------

Look What AVS Made Me Do!

Last edited by Seegs108; 07-13-2014 at 09:49 PM.
Seegs108 is online now  
post #8 of 28 Old 07-14-2014, 07:22 AM
Advanced Member
 
dovercat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Zeiss already has a projector that implements this idea. There are already several threads on this forum discussing this topic. Here's the Zeiss projector:

http://www.zeiss.com/planetariums/en...ts/velvet.html


As you can see, this projector isn't aimed at home theater. I think the major reason this hasn't been brought over to the home theater space has to do with the high cost to build such a projector.
It looks to be a single chip DLP

"The imaging elements (modulators) are micro mirror devices made by Texas Instruments in connection with a color wheel (single-chip technology)
Thanks to the single chip technology
Sequential Contrast 2,500,000:1"
http://www.vision.zeiss.com/C12567B0...Schorcht_e.pdf

"The contrast enhancement is based on the special optics design, which excludes scattered light and a gray background from the start"
http://www.zeiss.ch/C12567B000352701...tariums7_e.pdf

Last edited by dovercat; 07-14-2014 at 07:38 AM.
dovercat is offline  
post #9 of 28 Old 07-14-2014, 10:14 AM
Advanced Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 732
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked: 104
If a simplified version with both DMDs mirroring eachother goes down from 2,500,000:1 to 10,000:1 it'll still be the highest contrast consumer DLP. If w1070 quality parts are good enough to keep a good level of clarity with about 750+750=$1500 of parts..putting it up to $2500 means selling only 1000 units can pay for a $1,000,000 manufacturing new-design bill.
Ftoast is online now  
post #10 of 28 Old 07-14-2014, 11:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 3,922
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 200 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
If a simplified version with both DMDs mirroring eachother goes down from 2,500,000:1 to 10,000:1 it'll still be the highest contrast consumer DLP. If w1070 quality parts are good enough to keep a good level of clarity with about 750+750=$1500 of parts..putting it up to $2500 means selling only 1000 units can pay for a $1,000,000 manufacturing new-design bill.

There are already DLP projectors that can do 10000:1 native on off. Look at the Sharp XV-Z20000, Marantz VP-11S2 and a bunch of SIM2 projectors.
Seegs108 is online now  
post #11 of 28 Old 07-14-2014, 11:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 3,922
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 200 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by dovercat View Post
It looks to be a single chip DLP

"The imaging elements (modulators) are micro mirror devices made by Texas Instruments in connection with a color wheel (single-chip technology)
Thanks to the single chip technology
Sequential Contrast 2,500,000:1"
http://www.vision.zeiss.com/C12567B0...Schorcht_e.pdf

"The contrast enhancement is based on the special optics design, which excludes scattered light and a gray background from the start"
http://www.zeiss.ch/C12567B000352701...tariums7_e.pdf
They use two DMDs in succession. One DMD is used in its native greyscale and the other like a normal single chip DLP.
Seegs108 is online now  
post #12 of 28 Old 07-14-2014, 12:49 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 732
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
There are already DLP projectors that can do 10000:1 native on off. Look at the Sharp XV-Z20000, Marantz VP-11S2 and a bunch of SIM2 projectors.
Is that measured without an active/dynamic iris/backlight? I thought the sharp and marantz were about half that or less.
I didn't think even the sim2 got that high CR without dynamic iris. Are the Sharp and Marantz still in production?
Ftoast is online now  
post #13 of 28 Old 07-14-2014, 12:58 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 732
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
They use two DMDs in succession. One DMD is used in its native greyscale and the other like a normal single chip DLP.
Is there a semi-accurate mathy way of knowing/guessing how much light output is lost if both DMDs are attempting full-color?
Ftoast is online now  
post #14 of 28 Old 07-14-2014, 01:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 3,922
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 200 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Is that measured without an active/dynamic iris/backlight? I thought the sharp and marantz were about half that or less.
I didn't think even the sim2 got that high CR without dynamic iris. Are the Sharp and Marantz still in production?
Depending on the lens option the SIM2 Limos line achieves 7000-10000:1 native contrast at full brightness. Take a look at (if you have access) to Greg Rogers review of the 11S2. That's static contrast. Both the 11S2 and Z20000 don't have dynamic irises.
Seegs108 is online now  
post #15 of 28 Old 07-14-2014, 01:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 3,922
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 200 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Is there a semi-accurate mathy way of knowing/guessing how much light output is lost if both DMDs are attempting full-color?
No idea. There are a couple threads on the forum that discuss the Zeiss but because you want to set it up differently I'm assuming the math/techniques talked about are moot for this type of build.
Seegs108 is online now  
post #16 of 28 Old 07-14-2014, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Mik James's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Atlantic Canada
Posts: 853
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 37
I don't possess enough knowledge on the subject to know why a dmd acting only in grayscale coupled with a traditional dmd reflecting colored light would achieve higher contrast than 2 dmds both reflecting colored light.

However I think there would still be incredible potential here for something that would deliver excellent contrast.

Here is the way I see it in terms of (possibly terribly incorrect) math

Initial Contrast 2000 Lumen output to 1 Lumen: 2000/2000=1.
Second dmd cuts mll by same contrast ratio: 1/2000=0.0005,
Light output cut to dmd effeciency of 68%: 2000x0.68=1360,
Mll and Lumen output multiplied to reach 2720000:1 Contrast Ratio:
0.0005x2000=1, 1360x2000= 2720000:1 Contrast Ratio.

If this is wrong and or light output/contrast ratio is more complex than basic multiplication then by all means pick apart the math, but it seems there is potential here for a tad more than 2-5x the contrast, even factoring in real world conditions.

Last edited by Mik James; 07-14-2014 at 05:21 PM.
Mik James is offline  
post #17 of 28 Old 07-14-2014, 05:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Verge2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: arkansas
Posts: 1,597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
There are already DLP projectors that can do 10000:1 native on off. Look at the Sharp XV-Z20000, Marantz VP-11S2 and a bunch of SIM2 projectors.
11s2 has not one but 2 irises no?
Verge2 is offline  
post #18 of 28 Old 07-14-2014, 05:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Verge2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: arkansas
Posts: 1,597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verge2 View Post
11s2 has not one but 2 irises no?

I mean...

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/marantz-vp-11s2-dlp-projector-page-2
Verge2 is offline  
post #19 of 28 Old 07-14-2014, 05:41 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 732
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked: 104
Having one DMD only show greyscale potentially increases maximum output by minimizing light lost to imperfect sync. It lowers ANSI contrast, but on/off CR is the same or better. Having them perform the same action can lose brightness and lower on/off CR for it while raising ANSI quite a lot and lets the design use more traditional processing/controlling.

A lot of a DLP's contrast is gotten or lost to the quality of its prisms and lenses. The hopeful result of a dualDMD build would be the allowance of cheaper lensing (by far the most expensive part of a high-end DLP and therefore the best place to cut costs if contrast can be maintained by other means).
The difference between a projector with 1500:1 and 10,000:1 CR is easily several thousand dollars (which also buys better clarity and zoom/shift, but little else), so the opportunity to save thousands of dollars on glass while spending hundreds on an extra controller and DMD is a major one.
You lose some placement and switch back to middle-class clarity of a w1070 while switching to a price that competes with Epson Sony and JVC.
Ftoast is online now  
post #20 of 28 Old 07-14-2014, 05:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Verge2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: arkansas
Posts: 1,597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post
I don't possess enough knowledge on the subject to know why a dmd acting only in grayscale coupled with a traditional dmd reflecting colored light would achieve higher contrast than 2 dmds both reflecting colored light.

However I think there would still be incredible potential here for something that would deliver excellent contrast.

Here is the way I see it in terms of (possibly terribly incorrect) math

Initial Contrast 2000 Lumen output to 1 Lumen: 2000/2000=1.
Second dmd cuts mll by same contrast ratio: 1/2000=0.0005,
Light output cut to dmd effeciency of 68%: 2000x0.68=1360,
Mll and Lumen output multiplied to reach 2720000:1 Contrast Ratio:
0.0005x2000=1, 1360x2000= 2720000:1 Contrast Ratio.

If this is wrong and or light output/contrast ratio is more complex than basic multiplication then by all means pick apart the math, but it seems there is potential here for a tad more than 2-5x the contrast, even factoring in real world conditions.
I don't think it would matter, I think peoe are over complicating this. Literally, all you need to do is bounce the light off another DMD, no other changes necessary. You could definitely refine the design by changing the signal to the second DMD to only display greyscale and boost contrast when needed(for light scenes it would be basically reflecting everything)
Verge2 is offline  
post #21 of 28 Old 07-14-2014, 05:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Verge2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: arkansas
Posts: 1,597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Having one DMD only show greyscale potentially increases maximum output by minimizing light lost to imperfect sync. It lowers ANSI contrast, but on/off CR is the same or better. Having them perform the same action can lose brightness and lower on/off CR for it while raising ANSI quite a lot and lets the design use more traditional processing/controlling.

A lot of a DLP's contrast is gotten or lost to the quality of its prisms and lenses. The hopeful result of a dualDMD build would be the allowance of cheaper lensing (by far the most expensive part of a high-end DLP and therefore the best place to cut costs if contrast can be maintained by other means).
The difference between a projector with 1500:1 and 10,000:1 CR is easily several thousand dollars (which also buys better clarity and zoom/shift, but little else), so the opportunity to save thousands of dollars on glass while spending hundreds on an extra controller and DMD is a major one.
You lose some placement and switch back to middle-class clarity of a w1070 while switching to a price that competes with Epson Sony and JVC.

If it were down to only lenses dlps wouldn't be slaughtered in CR by jvc. It's not the lens, it's the fact that TI stopped development what, 10 years ago?
Verge2 is offline  
post #22 of 28 Old 07-14-2014, 07:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 3,922
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 200 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verge2 View Post
11s2 has not one but 2 irises no?
Yes, it has dual manual irises. That doesn't change the fact that the contrast is a native function of the light path. Most reviewers got much higher contrast than that reveiw. Greg Rogers, one of the most respected reviewers, got around 10000:1 native contrast. The peak white he got was much higher than the Sound and Vision review. I can say first hand, after owning two of the three 1080p Marantz projectors, their picture quality was basically second to none in the single chip DLP market. The only projector I liked even more was the Planar PD8150.

------------------------------------

Look What AVS Made Me Do!
Seegs108 is online now  
post #23 of 28 Old 07-14-2014, 07:21 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 732
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verge2 View Post
If it were down to only lenses dlps wouldn't be slaughtered in CR by jvc. It's not the lens, it's the fact that TI stopped development what, 10 years ago?
I want to disagree, but the core reasoning holds true..why should anyone care about a company that doesn't seem to care about itself? The special builds and high performers are creations of a rare few skilled and inventive manufacturers while TI does little to bolster the mass segment.
They're coasting along with little/no significant effort in improving design or assisting its improvement, and it's no wonder DLP has been so stagnant.

That said, I keep hearing that DLP is more finicky with lens quality and it makes a supposedly bigger difference for CR than the other techs which get polarizers and such..I've heard that measurements have shown upgrades from on DMD to another makes very little CR improvement and iris clamping robs robs 40%+ lumens.
If someone can explain why, (or why not) that'd be great information.

Last edited by Ftoast; 07-14-2014 at 07:27 PM.
Ftoast is online now  
post #24 of 28 Old 07-14-2014, 09:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 3,922
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 200 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
I want to disagree, but the core reasoning holds true..why should anyone care about a company that doesn't seem to care about itself? The special builds and high performers are creations of a rare few skilled and inventive manufacturers while TI does little to bolster the mass segment.
They're coasting along with little/no significant effort in improving design or assisting its improvement, and it's no wonder DLP has been so stagnant.

That said, I keep hearing that DLP is more finicky with lens quality and it makes a supposedly bigger difference for CR than the other techs which get polarizers and such..I've heard that measurements have shown upgrades from on DMD to another makes very little CR improvement and iris clamping robs robs 40%+ lumens.
If someone can explain why, (or why not) that'd be great information.
TI makes basically no money from the home theater segment from it's DMDs. It makes orders of magnitude more money from business/professional/venue and education projectors. These applications are their biggest in terms of profit and these applications do not require industry leading contrast performance. They aren't stagnant for no reason. The R&D costs to further the Dark Chip series DMDs most likely won't return on their investment. There's almost no incentive for the R&D because of this. Consumer grade projectors are so niche it's not even funny. Please don't think TI doesn't realize this. From a financial situation TI doesn't need to make these DMDs as it makes little money for them. In fact, there are several rumors that I've heard that TI has no plans whatsoever to create a consumer grade (smaller) 4K DMD. These are, of course, rumors. But they've come from some pretty reliable sources from higher up.

------------------------------------

Look What AVS Made Me Do!
Seegs108 is online now  
post #25 of 28 Old 07-15-2014, 05:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Verge2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: arkansas
Posts: 1,597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Yes, it has dual manual irises. That doesn't change the fact that the contrast is a native function of the light path. Most reviewers got much higher contrast than that reveiw. Greg Rogers, one of the most respected reviewers, got around 10000:1 native contrast. The peak white he got was much higher than the Sound and Vision review. I can say first hand, after owning two of the three 1080p Marantz projectors, their picture quality was basically second to none in the single chip DLP market. The only projector I liked even more was the Planar PD8150.
I don't doubt it, but we are talking 15,000. With two dmds you could best it in CR and demolish it in black levels for well under 3,000. Yea it would still be better in other areas, but this is more of a quick and dirty solution.
Verge2 is offline  
post #26 of 28 Old 07-15-2014, 10:24 AM
Advanced Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 732
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
TI makes basically no money from the home theater segment from it's DMDs. ... They aren't stagnant for no reason. The R&D costs to further the Dark Chip series DMDs most likely won't return on their investment. There's almost no incentive for the R&D because of this. Consumer grade projectors are so niche it's not even funny.
That makes sense, but rather than making tiny incremental improvements to the chip what if they made a reference design or paper for manufacturers in the HT segments to follow if they wanted to increase contrast through a second DMD or maybe some other inexpensive alternative that benefits TI while keeping prices competitive?

It won't pull it from the niche, but DLP already owns a big piece of the low end..what if they had a viable high-end (under $3000) that competes with LCoS AND required twice the DMD sales per unit? Increasing unit sales, doubling per unit sales, and doing it largely through awareness rather than expensive R&D. A new, advertiseable improvement using existing parts (and design, basically) to do the same thing as 4K; make consumers feel like they need to replace their old product with this one. The main pull being that it costs TI next to nothing.

They've already done it years ago and decided (back when DLP was the contrast leader and lumens were very low) that the slight light-loss wasn't worth a then unrequired CR improvement. Now that they're a low CR and high brightness tech, it makes more sense.
Having a simple paper out there (like their other reference papers on different DLP builds) should give manufacturers something to easily consider working from without the fear of an untested design.

If such a paper exists, I've NEVER seen it come up before while others are in abundance (including at least one silly build that I've never heard of being used..which means they've taken time to type up that waste while a two-chip in series build gets the short end of the stick and no time).
If someone manages to garage one of these for cheap, that's a good place to start and would be super exciting!
Ftoast is online now  
post #27 of 28 Old 07-15-2014, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Mik James's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Atlantic Canada
Posts: 853
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 37
This got me thinking about flat panel tech as well. If people weren't so caught up on brightness and thinness in the lcd market, we might have dual panel lcd's with not only better contrast but the possibility of reducing ghosting in high contrast scenes due to pixel transition time (lower contrast needed per panel). That might be even easier to implement than a projector would be to. Maybe I'll start with that for a bit of a fun project. Combine a couple of old 15" lcd panels as a neat little science project , not that 15" lcd's would be useful for much either way...
Ftoast likes this.
Mik James is offline  
post #28 of 28 Old 07-17-2014, 01:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Elix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Dungeon, Pillar of Eyes
Posts: 1,199
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Elix is offline  
Reply Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off