Want info on how DLP projectors handle motion for 30fps games - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 07-28-2014, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Thumbs down Want info on how DLP projectors handle motion for 30fps games

Hi all,

I dont want to create more threads then need be but I have asked a question in the gaming section a couple of days ago without any answers so I may used the wrong section (Cant stand plasma judder. Are DLP projector better for gaming ?)

To sum it up, I hate how my new plasma TV handle games that are 30fps. When panning camera in any direction I see everything double (may be called judder as per others post). I also got from other posts that it may just be how plasma handle it but I cant stand it. This TV was bought solely for gaming and most games are 30fps.

Now I plan to sell it (cant return at this point) for something that handles 30fps better. I get that LED have blur and can hide the problem instead of fix it but to me at least it looks more natural. But I was wondering about DLP projectors...

Are DLP projectors handles motion the same way as plasma (judder at 30fps) or are they different ?

I am not talking about film (24fps) or 60fps games as those seems perfect to me. Its just the match from how Plasma handles motion with 30fps that I cant stand.

Thank you very much in advance!
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post #2 of 24 Old 07-28-2014, 06:20 PM
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If you can see the plasma refresh, you will see rbe with a dlp.

Why not keep the tv and buy a ps4?
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post #3 of 24 Old 07-29-2014, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Verge2 View Post
If you can see the plasma refresh, you will see rbe with a dlp.

Why not keep the tv and buy a ps4?
Thanks for answering.

I have a PS4 already and 30fps games on it dont look good to me. I have tried Destiny beta and the juddering detracts me from the game.

I was watching the HD25e that is apparently very fast on input lag (I saw 17ms) and that have a minimum of the rainbow effect. Knowing me, I'm sure I will see the rainbow effect cause I can see every minus bad effect on all kind of display (unfortunatly).

But if motion is better than that plasma juddering, I might be sold to that.

Someone said DLP motion is in between plasma and LCD. If that is true, this might just be the perfect balance for me. What do you think about this particular aspect ?

Thank you again!
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post #4 of 24 Old 07-29-2014, 11:30 AM
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I'm pretty sensitive to judder but never noticed it on either my DLP projectors (Mitsubishi HD1000U or HD131xe), though I do see RBE on my HD131Xe, which is expected since it's essentially the cheapest (and still stacked) projector on the market.

Destiny Beta looked like it had a little slowdown in it tbh.
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post #5 of 24 Old 07-29-2014, 01:52 PM
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One of DLP's undisputed strongest points is motion handling; which is almost always excellent.

I've tried using 30hz on my W1070 for gaming (which I must say, I enjoy quite a bit), and motion is very clear - but (and this is a big but!), I find 30fps to be too low to feel truly responsive. It pales in comparison to gaming at higher refresh rates (50hz/60hz). So where possible, I'll always run at higher than 30hz.

However the main thing that probably affects you is this - check Eurogamer's article on the Destiny beta, here.

This is what matters:
Quote:
As reported in our earlier hands-on, the PS4 beta ran with a frame-pacing issue that impacted the smoothness of the game in motion. A perfectly smooth 30fps game will deliver each frame every 33ms - but the earlier code could see them arrive at 16ms, 33ms or even 50ms time intervals, resulting in stutter and the feeling that the game was running at a lower, less consistent frame-rate. However, both versions are beneficiaries of a patch - effective as of the beta's return on Wednesday - that corrects the issue. Simply put, Bungie's engineers have forced the engine to output one unique frame followed by one duplicate, producing an even 30fps experience throughout with no stuttering.

...so the issues you're experiencing may very well have to do with the beta you're running - looks like it's a known bug. See if you can get your hands on the patched version when it's available and I suspect your issues will be sorted.

BenQ W1070 Projector; Xtreamer Ultra 2 (running XBMC on OpenELEC) via Sony STR-DH540 AVR with Boston Acoustics SoundWare XS SE 5.1 Audio. MediaBrowser3 for Mobile Streaming.

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post #6 of 24 Old 07-29-2014, 04:22 PM
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Yea derp let's buy a projector based on a beta.

There's no motion problems with your plasma I suspect, if it's the flicker you see, you will hate dlp.
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post #7 of 24 Old 07-31-2014, 07:09 AM
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I am surprised nobody has given the OP a straight answer yet.

Nataq, I'm afraid I have to disappoint you. What you're seeing on your plasma (motion judder on 30 fps content) is absolutely normal. The same is true for film content (24 fps). You will always see motion judder on 30 fps content unless you're running an impulse-driven display (i.e. CRT) @ 30 Hz (which will flicker like crazy). Display technology here plays absolutely no role: you won't find a modern display capable of doing this.

It is also important not to mix motion judder and display-induced motion artifacts (motion blur, ghosting, solarization, rainbow effect etc.). They are of different nature; the latter will differ between display technologies. Plasma is considered one of the best technologies for motion clarity. I confirm that plasma is better than DLP for motion in most cases.

You can find a lot of information on this matter on this forum (search for Mark Rejhorn's topics and posts, visit his site: http://www.blurbusters.com) and other places.
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post #8 of 24 Old 07-31-2014, 10:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post
I am surprised nobody has given the OP a straight answer yet.

Nataq, I'm afraid I have to disappoint you. What you're seeing on your plasma (motion judder on 30 fps content) is absolutely normal. The same is true for film content (24 fps). You will always see motion judder on 30 fps content unless you're running an impulse-driven display (i.e. CRT) @ 30 Hz (which will flicker like crazy). Display technology here plays absolutely no role: you won't find a modern display capable of doing this.

It is also important not to mix motion judder and display-induced motion artifacts (motion blur, ghosting, solarization, rainbow effect etc.). They are of different nature; the latter will differ between display technologies. Plasma is considered one of the best technologies for motion clarity. I confirm that plasma is better than DLP for motion in most cases.

You can find a lot of information on this matter on this forum (search for Mark Rejhorn's topics and posts, visit his site: http://www.blurbusters.com) and other places.
I definitly know what judder is. I have also read the link you provided before posting the topic. And you may be right in the fact that its just the way it works with 30fps although I cant resolved saying what I am seeing on my TV is just normal juddering (by the way all 30fps games have the same problem for me not just for Destiny).

So this is probably the way I see things now. It may just be the specific model I have (samsung plasma f5500).For the same technology, LED, plasma or others, some models are better then others for handling motion.

Here is what CNET had to say about my TV :

"Video processing:
The Samsung F5500 is very light-on when it comes to processing, and this is good news for gamers but bad news for movie fans. With a score of 38.8 milliseconds in gaming mode, this TV should give a great gaming experience, but by failing both our image processing tests, it means it's not a great movie screen. It failed the 24p test with too much judder in playback, while the 1080i test was subject to artifacting."

It's a little contradictory saying its great for gaming but too much judder for movies. I understand its for 24p film content but I can tell you it fails MY 30fps content test with video games...
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post #9 of 24 Old 07-31-2014, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nataq View Post
It's a little contradictory saying its great for gaming but too much judder for movies. I understand its for 24p film content but I can tell you it fails MY 30fps content test with video games...
Not really, since it seems like they're referring to input lag there, which is generally the biggest concern gamers have. Judder is a separate issue, though they did structure that sentence awkwardly.
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post #10 of 24 Old 08-01-2014, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nataq View Post
I definitly know what judder is. I have also read the link you provided before posting the topic. And you may be right in the fact that its just the way it works with 30fps although I cant resolved saying what I am seeing on my TV is just normal juddering (by the way all 30fps games have the same problem for me not just for Destiny).
CRT has the least amount of motion artifacts among all display technologies. It still has slight motion blur due to phosphor trailing which can be quite visible on high contrast areas of the image (black/white transitions) but still if you want to see what 'pure' motion judder looks like you'll have to find a CRT. Compared to CRT, plasmas have motion blur, ghosting, posterization/false contouring etc. So it's not just motion judder you're seeing but everything at once. DLPs are inherently free of some of these problems but their effective motion resolution is still lower than that of the best plasmas. There are DLP projectors that have motion resolution close to that but they are expensive. Planar PD8150 is one that I know of (I own one).

Bottom line is, gaming at 30 fps you won't be able to get rid of motion judder with current technology.
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post #11 of 24 Old 08-01-2014, 05:15 PM
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Even if it's rendering at 30, doesn't it still sync at 60hz regardless?


Pretty much invalidates this entire thread.
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post #12 of 24 Old 08-02-2014, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Verge2 View Post
Pretty much invalidates this entire thread.
With 60 Hz display and 30 fps content you still has 1 frame repeat each 2 frames. You've got the wrong idea about how VSYNC works. Those repeats are seen as stutters (motion judder). I can only recommend looking up Mark Rejhon's posts, he's the guru of this area.

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post #13 of 24 Old 08-02-2014, 02:29 PM
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I'm afraid a DLP projector will not be any better for the problems you're seeing. This is one of the reasons so many people LOVE 60fps games. They're just so much smoother to look at, not to mention more responsive to your inputs.

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post #14 of 24 Old 08-03-2014, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post
With 60 Hz display and 30 fps content you still has 1 frame repeat each 2 frames. You've got the wrong idea about how VSYNC works. Those repeats are seen as stutters (motion judder). I can only recommend looking up Mark Rejhon's posts, he's the guru of this area.

Right I've written directx, and the problem you are illustrated above exists regardless of display technology. Once again, pretty much invalidating this thread.
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post #15 of 24 Old 08-03-2014, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Verge2 View Post
Right I've written directx, and the problem you are illustrated above exists regardless of display technology. Once again, pretty much invalidating this thread.
Invalidate what ? We are talking about what technology gives the better result (subjectively) with 30fps games. There's nothing to "invalidate". The different technologies (and different models from same technology) gives different results even if some aspect of the technology involed are the same. Arent a big part of AVS is so we can talk about image quality ? Geez.
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post #16 of 24 Old 08-03-2014, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Nataq View Post
Invalidate what ? We are talking about what technology gives the better result (subjectively) with 30fps games. There's nothing to "invalidate". The different technologies (and different models from same technology) gives different results even if some aspect of the technology involed are the same. Arent a big part of AVS is so we can talk about image quality ? Geez.
Not really the problem here is a console rendering beta software at 30fps. It still outputs 60z. If the projector is having problems displaying 60hz then tv would look awful as well. Judder from the v sync is a function of the console, the display technology is irrelevant.
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post #17 of 24 Old 08-03-2014, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nataq View Post
Invalidate what ? We are talking about what technology gives the better result (subjectively) with 30fps games. There's nothing to "invalidate". The different technologies (and different models from same technology) gives different results even if some aspect of the technology involed are the same. Arent a big part of AVS is so we can talk about image quality ? Geez.
I'll just leave you with my quick opinion. I think LCD's mitigate this problem as best as possible, due to the blurring. As others have said, CRT is perfection in this regard, but I think the next best option is an LCD TV.

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post #18 of 24 Old 08-03-2014, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nataq View Post
Invalidate what ? We are talking about what technology gives the better result (subjectively) with 30fps games. There's nothing to "invalidate". The different technologies (and different models from same technology) gives different results even if some aspect of the technology involed are the same. Arent a big part of AVS is so we can talk about image quality ? Geez.
The point is that in this particular instance the issue exists at the source, not at the display. Any display with a reasonable degree of fidelity will show the flaws within the source, so the only solution is to get a display with a low enough degree of fidelity to mask it. In this case, that would be an LCD display due to the inherent blurring.

This is a bit like buying cheap speakers to cover up the defects of a badly produced album. There's nothing inherently wrong with the approach, but you've got to understand that you'll be dragging everything else down to the same level of mediocrity in the process. I don't get the impression that someone buying plasma TVs and DLP projectors is going to be okay with that as a final solution.
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post #19 of 24 Old 08-25-2014, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Verge2 View Post
If you can see the plasma refresh, you will see rbe with a dlp.
You were right.

So I got rid of the plasma and got the HD25e DLP projector. At the second I started the thing BAM a rainbow flash came in my eyes and I wasnt even trying to spot them yet. And I see them very often so I am, without surprise I must say, sensitive to the rainbow effect (and all other video artifacts of any technologies). And evidently, rainbows bothers me. I'm doomed

As for my initial complain and question, motion handling with 30fps games, someone pointed out that DLP projectors are in between LCD and plasma and I would say it is pretty accurate. I am not seeing extreme juddering as in the plasma but motion is not as good as it in 60fps games with a little amount of blur (but still VERY good and better then the LCDs I have tried).

So as far as my concerns and for a 1000$ budget, DLP has the better balance for a mix of 60fps and 30fps games and is best for my gamers needs.

Now I just wish I werent that sensible to rainbows. In the end I am still happy for the tradeoff as I got bigger screen, faster input lag, better mix of motion handling and 3D thats actually worth it (at this size). Also, the motion handling are better in movies I have noticed since I were also able to see drastic judder on the plasma. The plasma had better overall picture with its black level and details and also with colors but the HD25e is better suited for gaming in my opinion.

Thank you all for your inputs !!!
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post #20 of 24 Old 08-25-2014, 04:21 PM
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On a 60hz set there shouldn't be judder at 30hz. The display technology shouldn't really matter.
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post #21 of 24 Old 08-26-2014, 09:51 AM
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Did you look at any projectors with frame interpolation? I know it generally introduces lag but to me it sounds like what you are looking for. The HD33 is cheap and has CFI, I'm unsure about the lag though.
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post #22 of 24 Old 08-26-2014, 09:51 AM
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As you are extremely sensitive to Plasma refresh, DLP rainbows and judder of any sort, you should be asking about gaming at 120hz not 30hz!

I've heard good things (from a gaming perspective) about the LG cheap 720p LED projectors, not very bright, colorimetry isn't that wonderful but they can be persuaded to refresh at 120hz have vastly higher colour switching so rainbows are vastly less visible and lag is low in part due to 120hz but also due to simple image processing or lack of.

There are plenty of threads about them here.

Once you've gamed at 120hz you won't want to know about 60hz and 30hz is just a bad joke. Refresh rate is vastly more important than resolution for anything other than "slow motion" camera dollies and cranes that are required to make motion in 24fps movies look acceptable.

I work in sports TV and what is gaming other than Interactive Sport TV, of a sort, you wouldn't cover any sport event at 30fps, well ok maybe chess...
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post #23 of 24 Old 08-26-2014, 02:23 PM
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What about 1080i sports?


The problem is his game renders are 30fps. It might be a little more responsive, but it should look identical at 60 or 120hz.
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post #24 of 24 Old 08-26-2014, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verge2 View Post
What about 1080i sports?


The problem is his game renders are 30fps. It might be a little more responsive, but it should look identical at 60 or 120hz.
Right. I don't think the 120hz is going to make the difference he is looking for if he's still seeing the same 30 frames/sec refreshed 4 times each. Hence, frame interpolation. The 120hz would matter with motion interpolated frames inserted in between the 30 actual frames.
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