Canon REALiS Short Throw Replacement? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 5Likes
  • 1 Post By Ftoast
  • 1 Post By Ftoast
  • 1 Post By Ftoast
  • 1 Post By Ftoast
  • 1 Post By Ftoast
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 11 Old 08-07-2014, 12:07 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Wink Canon REALiS Short Throw Replacement?

See from Canon's website:

[I]The REALiS WUX400ST Pro AV Short Throw Compact Installation LCOS Projector features high performance WUXGA (1920 x 1200) resolution and a throw ratio of 0.56:1, enabling the projection of a 7 foot wide screen from just under 4 feet away. With an output of 4000 lumens, 2000:1 contrast ratio and advanced AISYS technology, the WUX400ST delivers outstanding color richness and image brightness and clarity, and is well suited for wide screen graphics, text and HD video presentations.[/I

I don't care for WUXGA but need a short throw ratio and it needs to be in line with the middle of the projector (see below link).
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Cano...ulator-pro.htm

The Canon is out of my budget but I am hoping some other manufacturer has made a competing product. I am using this with the Starbright7 screen so I can't use ultra short throw or short throw projectors that come at extreme angles.
reckless7 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 11 Old 08-07-2014, 10:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,266
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 334 Post(s)
Liked: 186
All short-throw projectors use extreme angles to either side as well, even if the vertical is directly centered like you asked for the left and right sides (and still the top/bottom though to a more even degree) are still using VERY steep angles.

You know how tight a flashlight beam is? Now widen it to a projector that's throw distance is 3X that of its screen-width..a bit wider cone/more extreme angle than a flashlight, but often decent for a high-gain screen. Now switch to a standard throw that's throw distance is about 1.5X the screen-size and all the angles become much more extreme (too extreme for a high-gain screen to work well). Now cut it in half again, creating much more extreme angles on all sides, and that's the sort of projector you'll be working with because you won't have room for a longer throw.

A picture might make this much easier to visualize, so let me know if I babbled coherently enough to make any sense.

Basically because the projector is still super close, the angles will still need to be just as extreme either way and changing offset/vertical placement is just going to aim the wide cone in a slightly different direction. Plus it'll put the projector in the way of the screen for front-projection.
reckless7 likes this.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Ftoast is offline  
post #3 of 11 Old 08-07-2014, 11:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,266
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 334 Post(s)
Liked: 186
If a picture is worth 1000words, this has got to be worth maybe 41..it's pretty great.



The yellow lines show direction of light and where it heads after hitting the screen and one hitting you straight-on while another is going nearly the opposite direction means the section hitting you will look MUCH brighter and the other will be very dim. A high-gain screen is more and more like a mirror as the gain gets boosted (even 0.8gain screens that would normally be 0.4 if they weren't shiny).

The angle between opposite sides shows roughly how much brightness variation can be expected (wider angles mean worse brightness uniformity and more noticeable hotspotting). The bottom right shows that the angle stays about the same whether or not the projector is center offset or top/bottom offset. Though direction of light after it hits the screen does get changed in the process, the poor uniformity still remains the same (not to mention the biggest culprit, the side-viewing-angles, stay the same either way).

Hopefully this will make sense for more visual learners wondering about pairing high-gain front projection with a shorter throw.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	terrible diagram of ST on highgain.jpg
Views:	83
Size:	160.3 KB
ID:	201321  
reckless7 likes this.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Ftoast is offline  
post #4 of 11 Old 08-07-2014, 09:51 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Honestly, most of it went over my head. I'll take your word for it and stay away from ST. What projector will give me largest image from 10' away? Preferably something with 4-5k lumens and as close to 146" 4:3 as possible.
reckless7 is offline  
post #5 of 11 Old 08-07-2014, 11:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,266
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 334 Post(s)
Liked: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by reckless7 View Post
Honestly, most of it went over my head. I'll take your word for it and stay away from ST. What projector will give me largest image from 10' away? Preferably something with 4-5k lumens and as close to 146" 4:3 as possible.
Sadly the whole point of avoiding ST is avoiding the biggest image from a given distance..the higher gain screens work best with a long-distance narrow beam..or a shorter distance narrow beam, which results in a small image (typically around 50"-70" with only a 10ft throw distance.

Because you're going big within 10ft or less, you'll either need some decent lumen muscle and a very good rear-projection setup like discussed in the previous thread, OR a fairly plain screen and a massive wallop of lumens for front-projection.

I remember you expressed interest in taller ratios like 3:4 instead of 16:9 and I've read there's a lower resolution NEC um330x ultra-shortthrow capable of nearly 4000lumens at 4:3 which sells around $1000 with replacement lamps only costing $79. It should be bright enough for a 8ft-by-6ft 4:3 screen in a lit room.
There don't seem to be many ST projectors that are measured quite this bright it seems..I'm not sure if the 768x1024 resolution would be too low for your needs.
I'm sure there are other options, but NEC is a respected brand, the lamps are cheap, the lumens high and the throw is very short in case you have anyone walking inside your booth.
reckless7 likes this.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.

Last edited by Ftoast; 08-08-2014 at 12:12 AM.
Ftoast is offline  
post #6 of 11 Old 08-09-2014, 11:35 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Sadly the whole point of avoiding ST is avoiding the biggest image from a given distance..the higher gain screens work best with a long-distance narrow beam..or a shorter distance narrow beam, which results in a small image (typically around 50"-70" with only a 10ft throw distance.

Because you're going big within 10ft or less, you'll either need some decent lumen muscle and a very good rear-projection setup like discussed in the previous thread, OR a fairly plain screen and a massive wallop of lumens for front-projection.

I remember you expressed interest in taller ratios like 3:4 instead of 16:9 and I've read there's a lower resolution NEC um330x ultra-shortthrow capable of nearly 4000lumens at 4:3 which sells around $1000 with replacement lamps only costing $79. It should be bright enough for a 8ft-by-6ft 4:3 screen in a lit room.
There don't seem to be many ST projectors that are measured quite this bright it seems..I'm not sure if the 768x1024 resolution would be too low for your needs.
I'm sure there are other options, but NEC is a respected brand, the lamps are cheap, the lumens high and the throw is very short in case you have anyone walking inside your booth.
At the moment I am still a believer in high gain screens (that is about to be tested in next two days with starbright7). I can live with a 70" screen if its extremely bright, vibrant and not dull. To me thats better than a dull 150" screen. I am trying to attract attention.

What projector will give me biggest screen possible in 10' (even 70") with the starbright7 material?

I don't mind any brand but prefer cost conscientious solutions (nothing over $3k). I currently have a new optoma ultra short throw with 3500 lumens I purchased for $400. I may end up putting it on ebay to replace it with something for starbright7.

I can't thank you enough for your help.
reckless7 is offline  
post #7 of 11 Old 08-10-2014, 07:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,266
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 334 Post(s)
Liked: 186
I'm interested in hearing what you think of the screen at different sizes from 10ft. Most standard projectors will give you a 90"-100" screen within 10ft. Something with a longer throw that'll get a 70"-80" image from 10ft will give better brightness uniformity on the high-gain screen as well as being brighter because of the smaller size.
reckless7 likes this.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Ftoast is offline  
post #8 of 11 Old 08-14-2014, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 0
My initial impressions are better than I anticipated for the Starbright7 screen. It does work with short throw projectors but not as bright as a regular throw projector. My guess/estimate is that I am getting 2x gain with short throw as compared to regular throw which is 7x. The screen is completely visible from 50 feet away but not as bright with the short throw. I was testing with a 1600 lumen HP projector from 2005 as my regular throw projector so results may be even better for a 5000+ lumen projector. Unfortunately for me in my application I have no choice but to use a short throw so as not to block the light hitting the projection screen. Luckily I bought a 3500 lumen short throw projector. 3500 lumens is bright enough to see indoors from what Ive been told so gain may not be as high as I perceive. I did shoot the projector against a wall and against the screen and I saw a visible difference.

Do you know if I will get same results with a short throw projector compared to a regular throw projector with a short throw lens? I imagine I would but wanted to double check.

For ambient light environments I can't imagine a better screen than it. My friend who has a 100" screen in his home with all the dark curtains/etc said for dark viewing it isn't as good as his matte white screen ~1.0 gain. We tested it with direct sunlight hitting the screen and image was still visible. We noticed the brightness of the image increase the more artificial light we had bouncing off it (up to a point).

Unfortunately I am still slightly disappointed that I am not getting eye burning brightness from the screen. Even with the regular throw projector even though it was bright but not super eye piercing bright. Is there such a thing as 100x gain? Maybe it would be eye piercing with a 5000-10000 lumen projector.
reckless7 is offline  
post #9 of 11 Old 08-14-2014, 04:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,266
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 334 Post(s)
Liked: 186
I'm surprised but happy for you to hear that the starbright is still an improvement over a flat-white surface in the light while using short-throw.

To answer your question, no using a lens to make your own short throw shouldn't make any difference except that the regular short-throw is probably using a nicer lens while the home-made might lose some brightness and clarity.
I'd stick with your short-throw if it seems to work nicely. It certainly sounds like a bright one, so I'd expect it to perform well.

It sounds like you've got a good PJ and a cheaper screen that works better than flat-white..test them in some bright rooms to see how big you dare go before the image washes-out too much and it sounds like you're pretty well prepared.
I'd practice what you can for build and tear-down to weed out any quirks and get your setup/move process ironed out as well as possible.

Have you been able to get near the size you hoped for in a bright room?

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Ftoast is offline  
post #10 of 11 Old 08-15-2014, 04:11 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Actually rethinking to get this screen:
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-VPS-80DS-...pr_product_top

Since I am getting ~2x gain, and ~80", I might as well get this as its easier to prop open and close as opposed to building this unit each time, Plus this is much cheaper and works with short throw with high brightness.

Last edited by reckless7; 08-15-2014 at 04:22 AM.
reckless7 is offline  
post #11 of 11 Old 08-15-2014, 10:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,266
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 334 Post(s)
Liked: 186
Both the lack of sides and the reviews themselves say the edges will curl (and pretty early at that) and it isn't good for short-throw..but it shouldn't be much worse than the starbright unless the dark surface makes it way too dim at the sides.

It does look fast to setup. It would be great if someone made a non-motorized tab-tension screen that was a pullup like this for a reasonable price.
reckless7 likes this.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Ftoast is offline  
Reply Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off