Price vs Progress: W1070 and Runco LS-5 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Which projector performs "better" overall
BenQ W1070: brighter, larger screen, 3D-capable 6 60.00%
Runco LS-5: better black level, smoother gradients 2 20.00%
You're crazy. This is a completely invalid comparison 2 20.00%
Voters: 10. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-20-2014, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Price vs Progress: W1070 and Runco LS-5

In my research I've been weighing weather or not to buy the most projector I can afford, or to buy the best performance for the money with the knowledge it will allow me to upgrade much more quickly (and maybe transfer the older projector to backyard duty).

To this end I thought maybe it would be worth trying to make a comparison between today's value champ (the BenQ W1070, now available under $700) and a super-premium single-chip DLP projector that's now a few years old (Runco LS-5, which I think is still available and carries an MSRP of $7000).

So what do you get by waiting a few years and keeping some extra thousands in your pocket? Also, considering they're both Dark Chip 3 projectors, does anyone expect that the *native* contrast ratio (dynamic iris disabled on the LS-5) is very different?

SHARED SPECS:
  • Single-chip 1080P Dark Chip 3 (.95" DMD on LS-5. What size on W1070? Based on zoom range likely also .95"?)
  • 6x 6-segment color wheel. W1070 is RGBRGB, I assume LS-5 is too?
  • Similar post-calibration color performance (see below)
  • Near-perfect sharpness and motion handling (better than LCoS or LCD)
  • 1.3x zoom lens
  • Lens shift (vertical on W1070; vertical+horizontal on LS-5)

LS-5 PROS:
  • Pulsing light source (apparently combats dithering and RBE)
  • Better black levels (unclear how much is native and how much is due to dynamic iris, which I prefer to disable). Still worse than JVC or Sony LCoS or even Epson's 8700UB

W1070 PROS:
  • Much brighter: 1335 lm calibrated, BrilliantColor off vs LS-5 645 lm calibrated. Can drive a much larger screen, which should also trade off in better black levels
  • Solid 3D performance versus no 3D capability

ERRATA:
  • LS-5 has dynamic iris/dynamic contrast. For traditional film screening this is best left off, at least per my preference
  • W1070 has lower input lag, good for gamers but unimportant in this comparison

LS-5 Color Temp over IRE Range (Post calibration)
20 IRE 6403
30 IRE 6496
40 IRE 6494
50 IRE 6548
60 IRE 6519
70 IRE 6524
80 IRE 6492
90 IRE 6540
100 IRE 6422

W1070 Calibrated Color Temp over IRE Range
20 IRE = 6427
30 IRE = 6427
40 IRE = 6496
50 IRE = 6449
60 IRE = 6477
70 IRE = 6419
80 IRE = 6452
90 IRE = 6469
100 IRE = 6499

Last edited by sumitagarwal; 08-20-2014 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 08-20-2014, 03:29 PM
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S&V measured the contrast of the Runco at around 2500:1 with the dynamic iris fully disengaged.

That's higher than the BenQ (which tends to be measured between 1500:1 and 2000:1); though not by much - and it's easily bested by other projectors that are cheaper - Sony's HW55ES for example (an LCoS unit), more-than-doubles that contrast rating without it's dynamic iris engaged.

Black levels are better on the Runco; though that's partially due to the DI, as well due to the projector's relative dimness... (Both projectors appear to use the same DMD.)


I guess this comparison highlights that at higher price-points, it's tough to make a strong case for high-end DLP at the moment: the tech has stagnated somewhat and with large spend, other projection technologies offer more. I believe this applies even to current higher-end single-chip DLP models.


But yes, the value proposition you've discovered with the W1070 is why the thing sells so well: and the unusually good color accuracy you've reported is one of the reasons.
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Old 08-20-2014, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kreeturez View Post
S&V measured the contrast of the Runco at around 2500:1 with the dynamic iris fully disengaged.

That's higher than the BenQ (which tends to be measured between 1500:1 and 2000:1); though not by much - and it's easily bested by other projectors that are cheaper - Sony's HW55ES for example (an LCoS unit), more-than-doubles that contrast rating without it's dynamic iris engaged. (Both projectors appear to use the same DMD.)

Black levels are better on the Runco; though that's partially due to the DI, as well due to the projector's relative dimness...


I guess this comparison highlights that at higher price-points, it's tough to make a strong case for high-end DLP at the moment: the tech has stagnated somewhat and with large spend, other projection technologies offer more. I believe this applies even to current higher-end single-chip DLP models.


But yes, the value proposition you've discovered with the W1070 is why the thing sells so well: and the unusually good color accuracy you've reported is one of the reasons.
Awesome, thanks so much for the helpful reference!

Led me to pull up the results at S&V for the W1070, which came out to 1903:1 with no dynamic features on, and 2908:1 with StartEco on (for whatever that's worth).

Yes, it does look like DLP has stagnated. The flip side of this is you can get close to the performance and recency of tech of a commercial DLP cinema from just a few years ago for way under $1,000. And even a number of years ago reviewers were stating that those older 2K DLP chips were outperforming typical 35mm print projections. I think this is incredible, especially as the little W1070 has the output to handle a 135" or maybe larger screen.

Seems like LCoS really is hammering away at the next level of performance though, and even there prices are obtainable. How much would one have to spend to get the performance of the under $2000 Sony HW40 just a few years ago?
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Old 08-20-2014, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sumitagarwal View Post
Awesome, thanks so much for the helpful reference!

Led me to pull up the results at S&V for the W1070, which came out to 1903:1 with no dynamic features on, and 2908:1 with StartEco on (for whatever that's worth).

Yes, it does look like DLP has stagnated. The flip side of this is you can get close to the performance and recency of tech of a commercial DLP cinema from just a few years ago for way under $1,000. And even a number of years ago reviewers were stating that those older 2K DLP chips were outperforming typical 35mm print projections. I think this is incredible, especially as the little W1070 has the output to handle a 135" or maybe larger screen.

Seems like LCoS really is hammering away at the next level of performance though, and even there prices are obtainable. How much would one have to spend to get the performance of the under $2000 Sony HW40 just a few years ago?
Absolutely. With the level of video performance attainable for so cheap at home, you might find there's not a ton of motivation to head out to a cinema: home projection - even in sub-$1,000 guise - pretty-much outperforms it in almost every way save for sheer size. (Ironically, the last time I viewed a movie in a theater - recently - I was actually disappointed with their black levels! Goes to show...)

Topping out at 135" with a W1070? Really? I run at just under 130" (on a regular 'no-gain' screen) and there's enough brightness spare to deliberately leave some ambient lighting on.
Heck when I first got it, it was too bright in normal lamp mode to drive the 130" screen in pitch darkness - I had to use Eco for a while! (Fortunately the lamp dimmed a bit since then.)
With proper light control, you should be able to approach the 150" or 160" mark with the picture still being sufficiently bright.
With a bit of screen gain (which makes for more expensive screens - and comes with its own cons), you could exceed that.

Also considering the $700 price-tag is squarely in flat-panel TV territory... well, front projection is almost a no-brainer and easy to recommend to almost anyone.

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Old 08-20-2014, 07:22 PM
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But all your comparison is focused on measurable numbers. You missed a huge factor, the lens quality!

The 1070's lens is far from sharp. So far I have not seen one person claim it can focus sharply across the entire screen. There's always some CA, especially at the edge.

I have not seen the Runco, but presumably in its class the lens should be of much higher quality. The glass quality does not improve much over the years. You always pay a big premium on good glasses.
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Old 08-20-2014, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by hotjt133 View Post
But all your comparison is focused on measurable numbers. You missed a huge factor, the lens quality!

The 1070's lens is far from sharp. So far I have not seen one person claim it can focus sharply across the entire screen. There's always some CA, especially at the edge.

I have not seen the Runco, but presumably in its class the lens should be of much higher quality. The glass quality does not improve much over the years. You always pay a big premium on good glasses.
Definitely a very interesting point, but as an owner of 8 full-frame Zeiss lenses I think I can confidently say that a top-quality lens really shouldn't cost more than $1,000, and that's when purchased separately and not bundled into another product. On top of that, camera lenses need to perform under far more stringent circumstances, resolving detail at an order of magnitude more than 1080P and under much more difficult lighting and glare conditions necessitating sophisticated coatings.

Based on analogy to cameras here, projectors with adjustable irises should actually have a slight advantage here because closing the iris (until you hit the diffraction limit) will typically increase sharpness and improve contrast.

However, it makes me wonder: what's the focus sweet-spot for the W1070 zoom lens? Typically for camera zoom lenses they perform best somewhere in the middle of their range, with different flaws revealing themselves at either end of the range. This is also a big factor in determining the zoom range of a given lens: the designers put the wide and tele stops at the points at which they believe performance becomes unacceptable for their chosen standards.

Anyone have experience with the W1070 at wide, middle, and tele lens ranges and can weigh in on which position gets you the most out of it?
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Old 08-20-2014, 07:51 PM
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Price vs Progress: W1070 and Runco LS-5

Don't forget about the effect of lens shift.
Shifting the image from the center of the glass to the edge also has an impact since (as you know!) the highest-grade glass tends to be in the center.
I'm running at almost full-wide with maximum lens shift and CA is only noticeable on the bottom corners - which, as a result of the shift, also happen to be the two image-points passing through the glass furthest from the lens center.

That said, I'd expect the Runco to exhibit almost no CA at almost any degree of shift!

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Old 08-20-2014, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kreeturez View Post

That said, I'd expect the Runco to exhibit almost no CA at almost any degree of shift!
As the owner of a Planar PD8150 (LS5) purchased last year used for $1500 and previously the Sharp 30K new... I can tell you there is no CA with the planar(LS5) and the lens on the sharp was for crap! I wouldn't trade the image the Planar provides for a dozen W1070 or anything new under $5000. This comparison is worse than a Kia to a Mercedes. Nothing wrong with the entry level machine.. just not in the same hemisphere as what you are comparing it to. There is the rule of improvement.. the amount of improvement does drops off at a certain price point.. some are willing to pay more for closer to perfection other are happy with spending that money on something else..
Home Theater = Compromise
BTW the Last LS5 on Ebay never did sell as the guy had the reserve well over $3000.. Yes it is still a solid machine.. but projectors, like computers and phones don't hold value even if they are still top notch.
Do you think the 1070 will still be looked on as a top of the pack machine when it is 6 years old like the Planar/Runco is? Do you think it is built to last 6 years?
It is wonderful that you can get a great image for $700 but it is still a Kia not a Lexus.. and there is nothing wrong with a Kia!
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Old 08-21-2014, 02:42 AM
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Going by the reviews between the Benq and the Runco I would choose the Runco for 2D picture quality, but that would be dependent on screen size/gain due to the low lumens. It looks to have better native contrast. Although the review measurements still do not look that great, just not as terrible as the Benq.

Well designed projectors trade off quantiy lumens for picture quality contrast
Benq 240watt lamp, 2,000 Ansi Lumens
Runco 230watt lamp 1,000 Ansi Lumens,

Benq W1070
D65
Native on/off contrast 900:1
Lumens 1,100
AVforums.com review
http://www.avforums.com/review/benq-...tor-review.493

Runco LS5/Planar8150
D65, Brilliant Color off.
Checkerboard contrast about 560: 1
Native on/off contrast 2,700:1
Dynamic on/off contrast 10,000:1
Lumens D65 480 eco 570 high lamp mode
The Runco LS5/Planar8150
http://www.cine4home.de/Specials/Pla...anarFullHd.htm

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Old 08-21-2014, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dovercat View Post
Going by the reviews between the Benq and the Runco I would choose the Runco for 2D picture quality, but that would be dependent on screen size/gain due to the low lumens. It looks to have better native contrast. Although the review measurements still do not look that great, just not as terrible as the Benq.

Well designed projectors trade off quantiy lumens for picture quality contrast
Benq 240watt lamp, 2,000 Ansi Lumens
Runco 230watt lamp 1,000 Ansi Lumens,

Benq W1070
D65
Native on/off contrast 900:1
Lumens 1,100
AVforums.com review
http://www.avforums.com/review/benq-...tor-review.493

Runco LS5/Planar8150
D65, Brilliant Color off.
Checkerboard contrast about 560: 1
Native on/off contrast 2,700:1
Dynamic on/off contrast 10,000:1
Lumens D65 480 eco 570 high lamp mode
The Runco LS5/Planar8150
http://www.cine4home.de/Specials/Pla...anarFullHd.htm
For contrast, I'd be inclined towards comparing data from the same source to increase the odds of results not being skewed by differing testing methods/environments.

Sound & Vision Magazine professionally calibrated and measured both projectors (see the first posts of this thread); and the static contrast difference (ie with all dynamic systems - DI/SmartEco - disengaged) was around 2500:1 (Runco) compared to around 2000:1 (BenQ). That's not a massive difference; especially when stepping up to the cheapest LCoS projector available literally doubles those figures...

Calibrated, the W1070 is usually measured at 1400 lumens (normal lamp mode; BrilliantColor off); it's usually reported as calibrating well (though not quite as well as the Runco); with the Runco's light output topping out at half of that. (The more experienced among us might appreciate the Runco's better black-level, though).
So brightness is a serious consideration in this comparison; and as you say, it'll be a limiting factor for screen size and ambient-light tolerance of the image.

I suspect placed side-by-side, many viewers might actually select the the former purely based on its brightness advantage (which comes at little cost to color accuracy). Things like a bit of CA aren't going to evidence themselves in regular use; though personally I wouldn't mind an improved lens on the W1070 at a bit of a price premium (something the W1500 already offers, now that I think about it).

But to the point, as I said above: at higher spend - even the $3k eBay offer for the Runco - I'm not sure it's warranted since that's approaching 'brand-new' pricing for the Sony HW55ES (or some entry-level JVC's if brightness isn't an issue); and the advances in the LCoS-based imaging of those units has significantly surpassed consumer single-chip DLP - and their lenses are excellent to boot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post
Do you think the 1070 will still be looked on as a top of the pack machine when it is 6 years old like the Planar/Runco is? Do you think it is built to last 6 years?
It is wonderful that you can get a great image for $700 but it is still a Kia not a Lexus.. and there is nothing wrong with a Kia!
In this analogy, I guess it'd be a Kia with a hidden lumen turbo-charger beneath it's hood and unusually good handling for its class

But no, I doubt they've been built to last 6 years. That's not to say it wouldn't be fondly remembered (they've been a sales hit and a 1080p+3D+HighBrightness price-barrier breaker) - but I doubt they'd all still be trucking along like the Runco is now; 6 years later. Time will tell.

That said, in 6 years - I expect to have replaced my primary AV equipment with 4K-compliant hardware.

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Old 08-21-2014, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by kreeturez View Post
For contrast, I'd be inclined towards comparing data from the same source to increase the odds of results not being skewed by differing testing methods/environments.
Since you like Sound and Vision
Benq W1070 Review
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/benq-w1070-3d-dlp-projector-ht-labs-measures
Quote:
Full-On/Full-Off Contrast Ratio: 1,247:1
That is their figure with the projector calibrated and brilliant color off, and white clipping everything over digital 235

Runco LS5
http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...-dlp-projector
Quote:
contrast ratio 2,500:1.
That is calibrated and with the contrast set to just 62 showing all levels above white up to digital 255

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Old 08-21-2014, 07:05 PM
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Price vs Progress: W1070 and Runco LS-5

Quote:
Originally Posted by dovercat View Post
Since you like Sound and Vision
Benq W1070 Review
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/benq-w1070-3d-dlp-projector-ht-labs-measures

That is their figure with the projector calibrated and brilliant color off.

Yup, and that's over 30% higher than the AVF measurement... See what I mean

But again: with even base-level Sony's now offering comfortably over 5500:1 without any dynamic brightness - no matter who measures it - and priced at under the $3000 mark, larger spend now should arguably really be on modern LCoS units rather than older (or maybe even current) higher-end single-chip DLP's.

That said - and part of the OP's point - is that the budget-segment is very well-served by DLP at present; especially in the sub-$1500 (and even half of that!) bracket.

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Old 08-21-2014, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by kreeturez View Post
Yup, and that's over 30% higher than the AVF measurement... See what I mean
That Sound and Vision review figure 1,247:1 is closer to the AVForums 900:1 than the other Sound and Vision review's 2,000:1. At least for the 1,247:1 Sound and Vision contrast figure is said to be calibrated to D65 with Briliant color off, for the 2,000:1 figure it is unclear what settings were used.

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Old 08-21-2014, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by kreeturez View Post
But again: with even base-level Sony's now offering comfortably over 5500:1 without any dynamic brightness - no matter who measures it - and priced at under the $3000 mark, larger spend now should arguably really be on modern LCoS units rather than older (or maybe even current) higher-end single-chip DLP's.
The OP was comparing a new cheap $1,099 projector to a old expensive $6,995 projector. If you want to jump the new projector to cheap $3,000 then old expensive jumps to $19,095. Some old high end DLPs are capable of in excess of 4,000:1 native contrast, like the dual manual irises sharp and marantz projectors or some of the single iris projectiondesign projectors. Depending how sharp and how bright the new Sony projector is the old expensive single chip DLPs might give it a run for its money or beat it in 2D picture quality.

I have seen comparisons between relatively cheap Projectiondesign projectors that is cheap for projectiondesign and JVC lcos projectors where the Projectiondesign projector is surprisingly viewed as in a different league above the JVC despite the JVC having a massively higher native contrast.
JVC RS20/HD750 versus Avielo Spectra
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Old 08-23-2014, 02:27 PM
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This thread is derailing. Let's take a step back.

The OP was comparing the progress made by the budget spectrum of the Single-Chip DLP market in its encroachment of high-end Single-Chip DLP; in the context (and pricing!) of two projectors - both of these projectors are still technically in production.

And as has been found, there's been some serious progress on the budget-end; with comparatively little at the top-end.

Home-theater targeted DarkChip 3 DLP doesn't fair well against modern LCoS. It just doesn't.

"4000:1" native CR from top-end single-chip DLP units? That's significantly lower than current bottom-of-the-range LCoS units from Sony, which tend to be comfortably at or above the 5500:1 mark; and sell for as little as $2,500; whilst still offering significant 'modern-day' brightness at over 1500 lumens calibrated.

Both projectors on topic here are between the $1000 and $7000 mark. At the lower end of that spectrum, DLP is an absolute no-brainer; with new models from Optoma and BenQ (in particular the W1070 that forms the subject of this thread) doing very nicely indeed at giving their more-expensive DLP ancestors a run for their money, albeit with a bit of compromise.
But, as I've said several times in this thread, even at the half-way mark of that price spectrum ($3500 or so), there's very little reason to motivate going for decade-old DarkChip 3 DLP technology when LCoS has made such significant strides: and things like well-implemented Dynamic Irises and excellent lens systems are all available in the LCoS realm at that price-point; along with a convenient lack of RBE (a problem to some even with 6x DLP units) and fewer moving parts (ie, no color wheel), and contrast ratios that easily best most regular LCD (LED-Backlit or otherwise) TV's.


In summary, a lot has changed in the last 6 years in the home-projection world. With DLP, the biggest strides have been price decreases: DC3 DLP projectors were once exorbitant; they're not any more. Great image quality can now be had on the cheap: and that's fantastic. But DLP is somewhat stagnant otherwise.
With LCoS, lower pricing as well as noticeable image quality improvements have made the technology an absolute no-brainer in its price segment for those wishing to step up.

This is not necessarily a bad thing: in some ways, it's actually good news for everyone - and every budget; as we've seen here.

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Last edited by kreeturez; 08-23-2014 at 02:34 PM.
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