M20X, brightness vs color? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 08-30-2002, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I was just wondering about the reasons for the M20X being so bright. The Apex NC shoot out showed the M20X having the narrowest color triangle of any pj they tested (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ight=apex+m20x). From looking at the plots, it looks like there is more white in the red and green points than in others. This may mean that the color wheel blocks less of the 'out of band' light than other pj color wheels, which would mean that more light gets through and makes a brighter image. This happens even if the white segment is blocked. So it looks like the Sharp engineers decided to trade off color purity for extra brightness. Since my HT is not light controlled, this is a good trade off for me. But, it makes me wonder if there might be an after market color wheel for the M20X that might have purer colors, with a corresponding decrease in light output. This would be great for people with better light control, and improve an already great pj. I know that there are at least some color wheel vendors, but the market for such a specialty item might be too small to make it worth their while. Ana, of course, changing the color wheel would void the warranty. Just a thought.

Mike

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post #2 of 23 Old 09-01-2002, 12:08 PM
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I'm supprised that more people have not commented on the color display on the M20X. It seems to be a glaring weakness for this projector. I was hoping that a solution would be found by now but most comments/praises have dodge this issue. I'm hesitant to purchase a projector that clearly does not show red. No pun intended.

PS

Any new info on the color quality or lack of it?
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post #3 of 23 Old 09-01-2002, 01:47 PM
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I personally wouldn't call that a "glaring" weakness of the projector. I think it is up to each individual as to what they prefer and/or even notice. I think the colors on the projector are actually quite good. I also think that projector central would not have given it a "best buy" recommendation if the colors were a "glaring" weakness.

Given that, the weakest point I saw for this projector was the noise it puts out.
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post #4 of 23 Old 09-01-2002, 03:05 PM
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You guys actually had me reconsidering whether my purchase of the M20x was a good one for a little bit there. I was thinking after reading this that I wouldn't even know about the problems with red if I didn't read this forum. Last night I was watching something and thought, "Wow, that looks red. I thought this projector had a problem with red." So, I decided to take a closer look. I had HD-NET on my SVGA direct view 32" that displays HD signals in one room and also on my M20x in another room with the CART race on. I first looked at the colors on the 32" set and then walked in the other room and my first thought was that the reds looked better on the projector. Granted, maybe I need to calibrate my set. After staring at one of the graphics for a while I started to see some orange in it, but that wasn't my first impression. My dad was watching the race in the winning car was a red color. So, I asked him if the winning car was red or an orangish-red. He said that it was definitely a deep red, maybe crimson (I hadn't told him about the complaints some people have). I agreed. No matter how hard I tried I could not see any orange in the car. I think it probably has trouble with some reds, but I've watched Moulan Rouge and didn't notice any problems with color. BTW: I have the projector set to the factory defaults, since Sharp just replaced the bulb for me and I haven't reset it.

Bottom line, I won't be complaining after this test and can quit worrying about upgrading soon.

--Darin
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post #5 of 23 Old 09-01-2002, 03:11 PM
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...still, I would pay $500 for a different color wheel and the necessary software upgrade. I could use fewer white segment and more color segments. is it even possible for an outside to produce such a tweak?

I have asked this before: has anyone determined whether it is possible to turn off the white color segment via software? (I presume this would be a bad idea to block physically, because it could distort software color computations.)
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post #6 of 23 Old 09-01-2002, 04:13 PM
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Borg, I see you think it is a none issue. That seem to be the sentiment of most. However, I see what I see. When I had the M20x demonstated at a local AV store the (red) showed poorly as compared to other projectors in $3000 price range. Tweaking didn't help. The colors were viewed in a race car type movie. "Darinp" posted that he thinks the color red is just find. I will go back to the AV store and take a second look. I'll continue to watch this thread for color news breaks.
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post #7 of 23 Old 09-01-2002, 05:01 PM
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Use a color filter to fix the colors, like all us LT150 users ^_^

/frode
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post #8 of 23 Old 09-01-2002, 06:53 PM
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P Woody-
Was the M20x you saw calibrated with Avia or VE? If not, then that may be the problem. Simple "tweaking" without some type of reference makes it real hard to properly calibrate. If so, then you are one of the people that sees the orangish reds.
Otherwise, it may be AVS forum thats the problem. haha. :)
Seriously though, I think some discrepancies that people notice and post on here are actually quite small, and even unnoticable to most people. I don't doubt the data presented in earlier threads about the color spectrum for the m20x. But I seriously doubt my ability to perceive those differences without looking at the graph itself. I don't actually own an M20x, but I spent 5 days (about 7+ DVD's, TV etc...) with it....so I may not be the "expert opinion." A serious videophile, on the other hand, would probably be able to detect a discrepancy like that.

Regards,
Borg
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post #9 of 23 Old 09-01-2002, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by P Woody
"Darinp" posted that he thinks the color red is just find.
I should clarify that I think there are probably a lot of projectors (especially more expensive ones) that are better at reds. I think there are some times when I think the reds look a little orange (after reading about the problem first), but it is often hard to know without knowing what they are supposed to look like. Like the review on projectorcentral said, on a stop sign it might be noticable, but I don't think I've thought about it while watching something that I knew was supposed to be red. That car today sure did look red to me, though. It probably depends on the shade of red it is trying to display.

When I demoed the M20x for some people, one person (Brent) brought over Pee Wee's Big Adventure since it had some red stuff on his house. We all thought it looked pretty good. I don't want people to think that the reds are perfect on this projector, though. The colorfacts test seems to indicate otherwise.

I know this isn't the screens forum, but KBK has claims that his ScreenGoo material helps the reds on digital projectors. Has anybody seen this projector on a ScreenGoo screen. I have a matte white DaLite model B and have thought about getting some ScreenGoo.

--Darin
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post #10 of 23 Old 09-01-2002, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ivo welch
...still, I would pay $500 for a different color wheel and the necessary software upgrade. I could use fewer white segment and more color segments. is it even possible for an outside to produce such a tweak?
There will be similar projectors coming up with no white segment and more color segments, but I think they're probably going to cost quite a bit more than $500 more. I've seen a tweaked projector offered, but I haven't heard of anybody doing what you suggest to other people's projectors. Sounds like an interesting idea, though.

Quote:
I have asked this before: has anyone determined whether it is possible to turn off the white color segment via software? (I presume this would be a bad idea to block physically, because it could distort software color computations.)
I think we've all struck out and that it sounds like it isn't supported. I should mention that I had some issues with my bulb not lighting the first few times after it had sat for a while and called Sharp about it about a week and a half ago. They sent me a refurb and then I sent mine back to be fixed. When I sent it in I included a note telling them that I would be extremely appreciative if they would disable the white segment, as HP can do on their's. When I got the projector back the notes said that the bulb was bad and that they replaced it (I just got another 130 hours :)), but there was no mention of the white segment and I didn't notice any difference.

I will be sending the refurb back on Tuesday when Fed Ex is open. I'm just about positive that the white segment is still enabled on my projector, but I will find a reddish scene from somewhere and try it on both projectors before I send that one back. I have a 1024x768 15" LCD monitor that I can also play on, so I'll find a scene and compare the projector to that. Maybe I'll go rent Pee Wee's Big Adventure and try that again. P Woody, maybe you can rent that one for your test.

--Darin
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post #11 of 23 Old 09-02-2002, 12:27 AM
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I went and rented Pee Wee's Big Adventure and here are my first impressions. I'm running PowerDVD on an HTPC with the VGA out on Radeon 7500 and comparing between my 15" Planar LCD and my M20x. Nothing has been tweaked.

I started with the chapter menu screen which has a big red house. First looked at it on the LCD and then the projector. I felt the red looked deeper and better on the projector. I next went to the start of scene 3 where Pee Wee wakes up on a bright red pillow. After switching to the projector and back a forth a few times I felt that the LCD might be doing a better job on this one. Then I fast forwarded to a point 7:20 into the movie where Pee Wee is eating at a restaurant type booth that is red. I looked on the LCD first and then on the projector. The projector showed a much deeper red and I thought looked much better. I can't say what color this is in real life, but I can't imagine anybody saying this projector can't do red if they saw this, unless I'm colorblind. Doctors have said I'm not, but I was seeing some orange in the red stoplights and tail lights as I headed to the video store to get the DVD :) I also looked at the outside of Pee Wee's house at the 7:44 mark and I think there might be some orange in it on both. I'm looking pretty close at these things, though. It definitely isn't jumping out at me that there is any color problem. I'll try my standalone DVD player with the component to DVI cable and see if I notice any difference.

Also, I should mention that my room and carpet are all very light (off white).

--Darin
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post #12 of 23 Old 09-02-2002, 12:42 AM - Thread Starter
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I think I should clarify my own opinion, too. I stated in my first post that I like the trade off the Sharp made because I do not have full light control in my HT/living room. But I see I should expand on that. I like the M20X image. I also can see no problem with the M20X colors, red or otherwise. I was basing my conjecture on the comments other have made. I can not see any problem with the M20X colors when I am watching a movie. The only time I can see any difference at all, is when I am sending the same material to both the 32 inch Sony TV (S-video) and the M20X. The Sony still wins hands down. But, it is still a bit early in the technology to expect a digital FP to beat an mature technology direct view. When the Sony is turned off, the pQ of the M20X is awesome. I keep getting amazed by it every time. I understand that it will some day be even better, but it is hard to believe I can afford to own a theater the can produce bright, sharp images with colors that good.

Only posted this new topic because it seemed like a sudden revelation to me that the two qualities could even be inter-mixed, and I wanted to share this thought with others and see what they can make of it. And some of the discussion has been about that. But, in terms of one mans opinion of the color quality, if a new pj came out this month for under $3000 with perfect color, I would still not want to change. I doubt that I personally could notice the difference enough to be worth the hassle a of selling the old one and buying a new one. The M20X is WAY past the point of being able to suck you into the movie and forget the world outside, and that is all I an really trying for. Perfect Home Theater experience, and showing off to friends, is just icing on the cake :).

Mike

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post #13 of 23 Old 09-02-2002, 01:31 AM
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Mike,

I agree the 32" set will win with s-video and even with HD if you get really close my 32" SVGA set is much tighter. However, nobody says "Oh, My God!" when they see HD on my 32" set :)

Back to my discoveries. I tried my DVD player and didn't really see anything different colorwise than playing through my HTPC. I did find a scene with a fire extinguisher at 6:26 into Pee Wee's Big Adventure. I went and got one that I have to compare. The one on the screen definitely had some orange compared to the real one. However, the seat that Pee Wee is sitting on in the same scene is almost exactly the color of my fire extinquisher.

Also, I checked my firmware version through the status menu as I just got mine back on Friday. I have M20X020425. The refurb projector had M20X020325, but the reds seemed to be the same as my projector.

I want to make one more quick point for those considering something like the M20x. This projector will display all 1080i material in as 960x540. That is 1/4 the 1920x1080i and pretty much exact for horizontal lines (I understand the DTC-100 outputs 1080i as 540p). I've heard that the best images we will see will be 1080i D-Theater tapes. So, I don't think you will get any better scaling for the best stuff for under $10k (new). Those 16x9 projectors may use more pixels for 1080i material, but they are having to scale with something that is non-linear. Once we get 1920x1080 native projectors it will be a different story, but that is a lot of time and $ off.

--Darin
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post #14 of 23 Old 09-02-2002, 05:51 AM
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Mike, sorry you see it as one man's opinion. I thought the comments made in this thread were very informative and related to the topic (brightness vs color).
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post #15 of 23 Old 09-02-2002, 09:04 AM
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Thought I'd throw my two cents in here:

I've owned the M20X for a couple of months and will concur that color accuracy is not one of its stronger points. However, I don't think I would go as far as calling it a "glaring" weakness.

I'm using the M20X with a 9' Firehawk 16:9 screen in a light controlled room with a totally black stage. I have used Avia to align it using an HTPC connected via the RGB inputs.

When looking at the color bars, the green bar appears to be more of a lime green. Reds seem fine (I don't really see any orange), but yellows look a little off as well. Some of this my be due to the fact that I like my colors saturated and therefore have the saturation adjustment bumped up quite a bit on PowerDVD. I'm going to try recalibrating with normal saturation levels and see if this helps the green and yellows.

I should point out that when you are immersed in a movie, the greens and yellows look fine and you don't find yourself distracted by color inaccuracies. The HVS (human visual system) is great at adjusting to almost any viewing conditions and will compensate for minor inaccuracies (and I should stress that the M20X's fall into the "minor" category). It not like you walk into the viewing room and go "my God, those colors look like absolute crap".

Anyway, it all really comes down to price/performance. I looked at the XB31, the 75U, the Sharp 9000, the LT150z, the TW100, and the Sim2 HT300 before purchasing the M20X and still feel that it gives the most bang for the buck. It has black levels and contrast that are equal or superior to evey PJ I've seen, and I do not feel that the minor color issues are really unique to the M20X.

I should stress that I'm certainly not defending the M20X as the perfect PJ, nor is my opinion biased because I happen to own it. If you check out my reviews and comments to the forum, I've always maintained that the M20X is a transitional PJ (as are all PJs, really). At the moment in time I puchased the M20X I felt it had the best price/performance ratio of every PJ currently for sale right no, regardless of price. I still feel this way.

When another PJ appears on the market that has a significantly superior price/performace, I'll buy it (assuming I happen to have the $$ at the time, of course). For me, that replacement PJ will have to be 1280x720, sport a >5x RGBRGB color wheel, have equal or better black level and CR, and street in the neighborhood of $3k. I think that PJ is about a year away, but that is fine; in the mean time, I'm extremely happy with the M20X and wouldn't trade it for any other PJ in its price range.

Just my two cents :)

Mike
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post #16 of 23 Old 09-02-2002, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by P Woody
Mike, sorry you see it as one man's opinion. I thought the comments made in this thread were very informative and related to the topic (brightness vs color).
P Woody,

I think you misunderstood Mike. I think he was referring to his own opinion that he followed with, not anybody else's opinion.

--Darin
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post #17 of 23 Old 09-02-2002, 01:48 PM
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I probably did.

I've found many of the responses (personal experiences) very helpful.
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post #18 of 23 Old 09-02-2002, 06:46 PM
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I have the M20X, and was the one present at the Apex, NC shootout. I will have to say I would not consider changing projectors for quite some time. I watch mostly DVD's, and an occasional HD program with the MyHD card. The colors are not brilliant as in most LCD's, but still very good. The combination of low black level, brightness, lack of screen door, very little rainbow effect due to the higher speed color wheel make it a great value. I would say the M20X is an LT150 with XP21N brightness.

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post #19 of 23 Old 09-03-2002, 02:05 PM - Thread Starter
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P Woody,
Darin is correct. I saw the thread as becoming more M20X bashing than I had felt when I started it, and just wanted to balance things a little. I should have mentioned that it was my opinion only, and not that I was trying undermine anyone elses. I agree that the diversity of personal comments on the forum are some of its most valuable aspects, and that means including those that disagree with mine. I guess I have gotten more protective of the M20X than I had realized. My apologies. I was mostly looking to see if anyone agreed that color wheel material choice affected not only color range and purity, but also total ansi lumens. And also drop a hint to manufactures that a replacement color wheel with better colors might be popular, even at the cost of some brightness. I had not realized that a firmware/flash upgrade would be needed as well to change the color separation tables and perhaps pixel timing. And, if anyone went to that level of work, they could just as well eliminate the white segment at the same time :). In the mean time, I will enjoy my pj as is, and especially the 'WOW' factor when my friends see it for the first time :D!

Mike

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post #20 of 23 Old 09-04-2002, 12:26 PM
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Mike,

I value the comments of others on the this forum including the good, the bad and the ugly. I would feel remiss if I saw something in a projector, that might be an issue with some forum members, and said nothing about it. The intent is never to bash but to inform. I have seen, heard, and read enough about the M20x to consider it to be my top candidate for purchase. I'm just dotting my "i"s and crossing my "t"s.

Too often we stretch the essence of the original topic. However, I hope we can continue to give and take in this manner.
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post #21 of 23 Old 10-08-2002, 12:10 PM
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I have been watching movies on my EIKI 7000U LCD projector, and have noticed that the green is aligned one pixel to the left and the red is aligned one pixel up when you get up close to the projected image.

I was wondering if any one had any input on how to fix this issue?

doom.
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post #22 of 23 Old 10-08-2002, 01:42 PM
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Try this one. I was watching a Chiefs game recently and noticed something rather odd. The game was at Arrowhead and the players were in direct sunlight. The player helmets looked perfect. Nice deep red, no problem. Their pants however were Fusia (sp?) or some kind of hot, glaring deep pink Id expect to see in a Miami night club.

Anyone want to take a stab at that?

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post #23 of 23 Old 10-08-2002, 04:40 PM
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I think the problem IS a glaring one (or at least very obvious)...if you have the exact same image up next to the M20X and its the right shade of red. Very bright red seems to suffer the most. That's what you see in the speedvision DVD with the KMart car. If you keep watching the DVD when the cars are back in the garage you'll notice that the snap-on tool chests...also a red...are not noticably different from the 75u and the M20X.

Given the quality issues with the M20X I dunno if I can recommend it anymore given the newer LCDs that outperform the 75u. Then again...at least its not a $12,000 projector with problems (*cough* Marantz *cough*).

My suspicion is that Sharp didn't manage to completely resolve the lamp issues that forced it to produce the M20XA. Hence the startup problems and dimming problems that are appearing with some units.

As an aside, not being in the low-power mode does not seem to help the lamp start up...or at least not one that has started exhibiting the problem. Mine takes a couple of tries to start...when it stops completely I'll take it back to my dealer for a swap but until then I'll just live with it. It's not really that bad.

On the plus side...I suspect this problem will be quickly resolved because there are danged few sales guys that are going to be willing to live with this problem.

The biggest downside is that I do not trust the machine enough to void the warranty by blacking out the white section of the wheel. That makes a major difference in PQ.

Still though, its a nice machine once it starts. Under normal viewing scenarios its going to be hard for most folks to pick up on the red problem.

Regards,

Nigel
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