AE300 - more "fun" than the HS10? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 11-14-2002, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Now that I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on the HS10 I did have a small second thought about the AE300.

OK - with the extra resolution and brightness and connectivity etc, the Sony HS10 will IMO be close to that high end PJ that gets ceiling mounted and wired in that larger dedicated HT room. With its brightness and resolution, you can have one of those huge 10' screens but with the usual screen door you'll need to dedicate say a 18' long room to make that happen. Expected result - hi quality dedicated Home Theater on a relative shoestring that will keep you happy for a long time.

But the AE300 - with its less than top resolution and motion artifact it seems like more of an interim solution for not that much less than the Sony. But - if you have a smaller room you can get a bigger picture because of the shorter throw. And the coolest part is - in a smaller room you could have a huge immersive experience since you can sit REALLY CLOSE to a large sized screen without fatigue or screendoor. LCD is really easy on the eyes compared to DLP and for the first time you can get really close up since the screen door has pretty much been done away with because of smoothscreen.

So if you live an an apartment, or home with small rooms, or figure you'll be moving within the next year or two (like me) or even have kids that will enjoy sitting 3 feet away from a 10 foot screen (or maybe yourself); the AE300 could be a fun PJ that can deliver more fun and supersized wow factor in a smaller room.

I say a few years because by that time the urge to have a capable HiDef setup should be about impossible to resist. Just my thoughts, or I should say second thoughts. ;)
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post #2 of 25 Old 11-14-2002, 12:46 PM
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i don't get why you bring up the "motion artifact" on the ae300 when it in fact could be on the hs10 as well if the problem is in fact that lcd issue Li On talked about earlier.

I also don't think the resolution difference really matters if all one is going to do is use it for DVD viewing. But obviously if the person plans for HD viewing, it helps to have the extra res.

I also find it interesting you bring up brightness but not the contrast of the projectors. Boggles my mind how so many don't realize just how important contrast is for image quality. It is not jsut about how "black" blacks look. A high contrast ratio helps with giving the picture a nice 3d appearance which, IMO, is very important.

Dude, I still don't think you'll ever get a pj.:) You'll find whatever you can (ie this post) to prevent yourself from pulling the trigger.

ROB
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post #3 of 25 Old 11-14-2002, 12:50 PM
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HT! You traitor! :)

Seriously though, like many others who are sitting on the fence, I am thinking whether the AE300 would also be a good (better?) alternative to the HS10. I have to admit though, I am a bit biased to Sony, so my thoughts may not be the most objective ones.
From what we heard (and seen) from reviews about the AE300, it does indeed do a great job with practically eliminating screendoor, but from screenshots I seen (yes I know...screenshots are not the best way to judge) it makes things a little blurry too (not to mention the artifacts which may or may not be a big issue). I would take the crisper image over the (even slightly) blurry one any time.
As for the screen size, it's true that the AE300 has definitely the advantage there, but if you sit where you are supposed to be (1.5x) then there is no problem with either pj. Honestly, I don't think any of us (unless you are Mr. Magoo ;) ) would want to sit at 3 feet away from a 10ft screen :)

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post #4 of 25 Old 11-14-2002, 01:03 PM
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Considering I'm staring like an idiot at blank white wall at the moment, probably :D

Maybe I should read a good book...or go oustide and get some fresh air :rolleyes:
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post #5 of 25 Old 11-14-2002, 01:03 PM
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PC/Xbox gaming is somewhat of a priority for me, and the HS10 will be vastly superior for this. That's what finally pushed me over the edge, when trying to decide between the two.
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post #6 of 25 Old 11-14-2002, 01:13 PM
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I feel your pain.
You need someone calling you to confirm your shipping cooridnates for the projector just arrived in store.
For me the AE300 is not an option. I want a usa warranty PJ for end december.
Why this Sanyo Z1 is ignored as option? you save 1000$.
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post #7 of 25 Old 11-14-2002, 01:14 PM
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HT -

You didn't order your projector yet???? Jeez! I can't wait until you get one just so that the suspense will be relieved.

I am soooo tempted to start an AVS pool. The winner would be the one who came closest to the model, price, and order date. I'm just worried that, over the years, we will all forget that the pool is in existance! By the time a winner is announced, none of us will be around to collect!

Just kidding HT. You really will be remembered for all of this!

David

If one, jump two. If two, jump three.
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post #8 of 25 Old 11-14-2002, 01:19 PM
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well he brings "motion artifact" of AE300 because it is an obvious problem with that PJ .. It may not be for others, but for people like me I would REALLY be distracted from the movie, when those artifacts would pop up from time to time . People did not notice this "motion artifact" with AE200, nor with HS10 ( at least those that have seen it ) or any other PJ . It may or may not be common to every LCD PJ. I bet Panasonic will fix this problem with their release of AE400, if there should ever be one.

I for once , was considering AE300 at one point.. It has great price, and great image quality. But once people complained about this "motion artifact", I was totally turned off, even though it lack screen doors.. I would rather spend additional $500-$2000, to avoid this problem .. Unless I could view AE300 in person, and see for myself how this "motion artiffact" looks like , right now I can't see anyreasons why I should skip HS10 infavor of AE300.........

If someone in NYC/NJ area has AE300 , please SAY SO .. I would like to see AE in action.. Who knows, I might change my mind ..lol

:)HS10 ALL THE WAY :)


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post #9 of 25 Old 11-14-2002, 02:28 PM
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Here are my thoughts regarding these two great PJs. First, I doubt anyone in this forum would really be disappointed with either. Frankly, if quality mattered that much to us, we’d pony up the extra dough for a more expensive machine. That said, neither will be perfect, so it’s just a matter of weighing the pros and cons to figure out which is a better fit.

My situation: I’ll be living in an apartment for the foreseeable future so front projection for me is not necessarily about getting a 10’ theater but more along the lines of an easy-to-move alternative to a rear projection set. That said, I’ll probably keep my picture to under 80†diagonal to minimize screen door and increase brightness (and punch hopefully) to combat ambient light which will most likely be present… I have no desire to live in a cave :D I’ll also be sitting at about 2X or a tad more.

Panasonic AE300: US spec available late Dec.
Pros:
No Screendoor
Shorter Throw
Cheaper by $500 (buy a screen, cables, etc… with extra $)
Longer Bulb Life
Cons:
640X480 Computer Gaming… yuck! (can someone confirm?)
Less Resolution for HDTV (don’t have it yet)
Peek-A-Boo scan lines

Sony HS10: US spec available late Nov.
Pros:
Brighter
More True Resolution
Includes Filters
HDCP Compliant DVI (can someone confirm?)
1024X768 Computer Gaming
Cons:
Longer Throw
Less Bulb Life
Screendoor - although in my setup this may not be an issue. (@ Seattle-Shootout, most preferred the AE300 over the TW100 due to lack of screendoor, I doubt the HS10 adds enough pixels to change this)

Based on all of the above… there are more pros in the Sony column so that is the unit I’m I’m leaning towards. Luckily, I found a local dealer that is giving me a good deal. He’s still not sure when they’ll be in stock though, he is going to get back to in a day or two with that info.

I would love to hear about more tradeoffs people expect when picking between these two… Now if I can just get off this frickin’ fence! :D
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post #10 of 25 Old 11-14-2002, 03:00 PM
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I believe the ae-300 has 960X540 resolution thats much better than 640X480.

PC Load Letter...What the **** does that mean!?
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post #11 of 25 Old 11-14-2002, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mpjohnst

Panasonic AE300: US spec available late Dec.
Pros:
Shorter Throw

Sony HS10: US spec available late Nov.

Cons:
Longer Throw
Whether a short throw or long throw lens is a pro or con depends on the individual's situation.

For me the short throw AE300 is not an option.
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post #12 of 25 Old 11-14-2002, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by offshore
Whether a short throw or long throw lens is a pro or con depends on the individual's situation.

For me the short throw AE300 is not an option.
Very true... as mentioned, everything in my post was in reference to my situation. For me, I would prefer a shorter throw as I think they are more flexible but a longer throw is not a deal breaker.
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post #13 of 25 Old 11-14-2002, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow - good discussion. Thanks for keeping me on the straight and narrow, everyone.

Joseki - You're right, it wouldn't be a good time for the pool now. Between my timing and Sony's the variables would be staggering.

CAE - Wouldn't the Z1 be a closer comptetitor to the AE200 than the 300 or HS10?

Costa - It always fun to stir the pot a bit. If you plan to sit away 1.5 or better, the screen door shouldn't be an issue from what reviewers have said.

Rlindo - I'm not sure we know of a contrast difference between the AE300 and HS10. Between 700 and 800:1 it shouldn't be a discernable difference. And comments about the contrast on the HS10 so far from reviewers have been suprisingly enthusiastic.

MPJohnst - Nice analysis. It helped calm me down..;)
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post #14 of 25 Old 11-14-2002, 06:35 PM
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I agree with mpjohnst--these both will be great intro level pjs. I am leaning towards the sony for a few reasons:

1. Its throw distance is better for me (15' long room).
2. The US warranty seems to be very good (maybe as low as zero dead pixels?)
3. Its probable better picture for HDTV--I will have this thing set-up before the Superbowl :)

But when all is said and done--what is gonna happen is that the one available and ready to go when my refi is done (under a month) will be the one for me :). I also may step up a bit and go with a 'better' pj (Sanyo PLV-70)

Jaime

If you can't say anything kind at least have the decency to be vague...
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post #15 of 25 Old 11-14-2002, 06:56 PM
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who says the sony hs10 is brighter? no one has seen it. it may have a higher lumens rating but every authoritative source i've read indicates lumens ratings are vodoo science especially when comparing different brands. i think the only real way to determine which is brighter is in a shoot out. same for contrast. until a shoot out is performed, i don't see how any comparisons of merit can be contemplated.
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post #16 of 25 Old 11-14-2002, 08:02 PM
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The best thing to be said about the HS10 is that it is a Sony,... The worst thing to be said about the HS10 is that it is a Sony :D
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post #17 of 25 Old 11-14-2002, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by bgl90042
who says the sony hs10 is brighter? no one has seen it. it may have a higher lumens rating but every authoritative source i've read indicates lumens ratings are vodoo science especially when comparing different brands. i think the only real way to determine which is brighter is in a shoot out. same for contrast. until a shoot out is performed, i don't see how any comparisons of merit can be contemplated.
Someone linked to a site which compared the HS10 to the AE300, they said it was noticeably brighter and crisper. Although the translation was very difficult to read in most places....

It will be interesting to measure the contrast ratios of the projectors, if Sony are claiming 700:1 I wonder what it can acheive with the cinema filter attached :D . I wonder if Steve of SMART fame will be examining the HS10 to get the best out of it like he has with the 10HT/11HT ?
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post #18 of 25 Old 11-14-2002, 08:59 PM
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Someone linked to a site which compared the HS10 to the AE300, they said it was noticeably brighter and crisper. Although the translation was very difficult to read in most places....
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

i read the same site and like you say, the language was unintelligible. I'll wait for a Hinglish review before i make a decision.
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post #19 of 25 Old 11-14-2002, 11:00 PM
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On Tuesday this week I changed from ordering the HS10 to ordering the AE300 (I couldn't wait anymore). I received the AE300 on Thursday afternoon and have been playing with it for for a few hrs or so. Previously I had an AE100 for 3 months and a TW100 for 2 weeks. I actually payed about 2/3 what I payed for the original AE100 and less than half what I payed for the TW100.

The AE300 is great in terms of color and even contrast. It is whisper quiet and nice and small. The smooth screen technology works really well. The peeka-boo (?) artifact that causes the horizaontal scan lines to appear is a non issue for me - it was present on the AE100 as well as the TW100 and doesn't bother me.

But (and this is a big but), you are constantly reminded of the fact that this is a relatively low resolution projector. This could possibly be attributed to the smooth screen technology (I'm not sure yet) but I see a constant mosaic-like pixel structure along edges and so on. Defocusing doesn't really help since I believe that the smooth screen technology already makes the picture a bit softer causing me constantly wanting to improve the focus. I do not recommend that you sit anything closer than 2x with this pj or the mosaic will drive you nuts. I hope there is a solution to this mosaic thing. It might have been the same on the AE100 and I have just forgotten what it looks like.

I tried driving it with 625i (PAL via component from Pioneer DV533K) which gives AA quality according to the book and also 525p via component (PAL using BriteView). I also fed it from my Compaq notebook via VGA giving it 1024x768 - this was better than either of the above feeds. I think that HTPC is definitely the way to go with the AE300. Contrast and shadow detail in particular was much better from the notebook feed.

Maybe I was spoilt by the TW100, but I'm not so sure that this is what I want. The built-in scaler might be even better than the TW100 (please don't shoot me for saying this) since I'm not seeing the combing/feathering that I noticed so obviously with the TW100. But, I miss the higher resolution (even with the greater screendoor) of the TW100 - defocus on the TW100 worked really well for me to get rid of the screendoor.

I'm not sure that this is the answer for me and I'm eagerly awaiting further reports on the HS10. I might get that too and keep the one I like best. I still need to continue tweaking and might still discover the sweet spot for the AE300. I adjusted the screen betw a width of 100" and 118" and the effects stay the same.

Lastly, I hope that I'm not confusing the mosaic effect and the horizontal scan line effect in that the former is really what has been described by the other AE300 witnesses as the peeka-boo effect, but I don't think so. Despite all of this, I still think it is a great pj and looking forward to the next panny that supports 1366x768 with smooth screen technology.

[edit]

Just finished watching PAL version of "Just Visiting" feeding 625i - I sat at about 1.8x away and the picture was stunning - very film like, very good, almost 3d like. I could still see the mosaic very slightly however. Maybe, I'm just being too picky and should just live with it :) I'm really getting convinced that the AE300 internal scaler is very good. In terms of value for money, you cannot beat this pj...

[/edit]

o AE100->TW100->AE300->HS10->AE500->AX100->TW700->TW3000->TW8000
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post #20 of 25 Old 11-15-2002, 05:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Xander - keep watching and reporting. Since you've also had some of the other hot projectors, your opinion is very helpful. It sounds like the HS10 might be more what you're looking for, but of course still need more time with the AE300 to solidify your take.
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post #21 of 25 Old 11-15-2002, 05:59 AM
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Here's why the AE300 can only game at 640x480:
Most games are 4:3 aspect ratio.
(540/3)*4 = 720
However, 720x540 is not a typical resolution for a game to support. The next notch down from that is 640x480. Q.E.D.

For the HS10:
(768/3)*4 = 1024
1024x768 IS a typical game resolution, so you're good to go with 1:1 pixel mapping.
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post #22 of 25 Old 11-15-2002, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Xander
But (and this is a big but), you are constantly reminded of the fact that this is a relatively low resolution projector. This could possibly be attributed to the smooth screen technology (I'm not sure yet) but I see a constant mosaic-like pixel structure along edges and so on. Defocusing doesn't really help since I believe that the smooth screen technology already makes the picture a bit softer causing me constantly wanting to improve the focus. I do not recommend that you sit anything closer than 2x with this pj or the mosaic will drive you nuts. I hope there is a solution to this mosaic thing. It might have been the same on the AE100 and I have just forgotten what it looks like.
Sounds like a scaling issue to me. Combing/feathering is a deinterlace issue, not scaling. Once deinterlace is done, the buildin scaler need to resize the 480p to native resolution which in this case is 960x540. Most digital projectors (such as the LT150) have a poor scaler which make the picture looks sorta of blurry and a pixelize look. It's just not "crisp" enough, especially in motion scene.

We need to find the 1-1 perfect pixel mapping formula for the AE300.

regards,

Li On
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post #23 of 25 Old 11-15-2002, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Defiler
Here's why the AE300 can only game at 640x480:
Most games are 4:3 aspect ratio.
(540/3)*4 = 720
However, 720x540 is not a typical resolution for a game to support. The next notch down from that is 640x480. Q.E.D.

For the HS10:
(768/3)*4 = 1024
1024x768 IS a typical game resolution, so you're good to go with 1:1 pixel mapping.
Defiler-
This is exactly what I was assuming for the AE300 and is kind of what has been steering me towards the HS10. I don't do a ton of gaming but probably enough that it would bother me. Right now I have a 36" CRT monitor that looks incredible for DVD but it's 640X480 resolution is the pits for any normal computer use. The start button in the lower left corner of the screen must be almost a foot wide! :D

Can any AE300 users confirm that it can only game at 640X480? I don't know why this wouldn't be the case but confirmation would be appreciated. Thanks.
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post #24 of 25 Old 11-15-2002, 12:20 PM
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Games based on the various Quake engines can all use custom resolutions, so you could use the full 960x540 for those. If the game makes you choose from a small list, then you'll be stuck with 640x480. Other than that, the AE300 sounds like an awesome projector.
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post #25 of 25 Old 11-15-2002, 09:02 PM
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One of my big questions on getting an AE300, is that I do still want to play computer games on the big projection screen.

I felt pretty comfy running at 1600x1200 on the LT260, which had a 1024x768 panel (no it wasn't as "sharp" looking as at the native res, but the softening was minor and I felt it was actually more enjoyable to have a smooth image).

However, how does the AE300 look when fed say, a 1024x768 image, or a 1280x1024? For the record, what is the actual highest supported computer resolution?

As for Xander's comments, on the 10' wide screen with AE300, I also felt the image had a strong 'mosaic' effect that was most unusual given it's anti-screendoor technology... this is probably not the PJ for you if you want to throw a 10' wide image with HD sources -- if you can afford better, anyway. But what did you expect for $2000? :)
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