I don't understand 4K- I thought 1080p was the highest you could go? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 04-13-2015, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't understand 4K- I thought 1080p was the highest you could go?

Sorry I know I may sound like a newbie here I just don't fully understand how they can continue releasing new higher def formats. What is the limit?
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Old 04-13-2015, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomT99 View Post
Sorry I know I may sound like a newbie here I just don't fully understand how they can continue releasing new higher def formats. What is the limit?
The limit is the consumers and what we are foolish enough to buy. They have 8K displays out there in the wild already, so I would expect that we will see something beyond 4K at some point, but at this time, true 4K content is basically a myth. Broadcasters aren't even on the 1080p bandwagon yet, so 4K is years away for high quality content. Not worth worrying about for several years yet at the very least.
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Old 04-13-2015, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post
The limit is the consumers and what we are foolish enough to buy. They have 8K displays out there in the wild already, so I would expect that we will see something beyond 4K at some point, but at this time, true 4K content is basically a myth. Broadcasters aren't even on the 1080p bandwagon yet, so 4K is years away for high quality content. Not worth worrying about for several years yet at the very least.
Oh ok, yeah I can't beliebe TV isn't even 1080p yet.
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Old 04-13-2015, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomT99 View Post
Sorry I know I may sound like a newbie here I just don't fully understand how they can continue releasing new higher def formats. What is the limit?
Does regular Bluray on your 1080p display look indistinguishable from reality to you? If not, there is room for improvement. The new formats are the next step on the content side. Display technology will take some time to catch up for most people.

 

 

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Old 04-14-2015, 08:43 AM
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Display technology will take some time to catch up for most people.

can't have people catching up to 4k since there is zero (or real close to zero) 4k content ... nuthin to catch up with...
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Old 04-14-2015, 09:23 AM
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Does regular Bluray on your 1080p display look indistinguishable from reality to you? If not, there is room for improvement. The new formats are the next step on the content side. Display technology will take some time to catch up for most people.
This seems like a poor comparison to make. There are so many more factors that go into distinguishing what is real and what isn't than just resolution. I bet if you had a system that placed a 1080p 55inch display as a window, installed some sort of head tracking to move the image realistically, had accurate colors/contrast, and realistic scenery, it would be very hard to tell that it isn't a real window.


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Old 04-14-2015, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomT99 View Post
Sorry I know I may sound like a newbie here I just don't fully understand how they can continue releasing new higher def formats. What is the limit?
There are a couple of limits: source and what you can actually see.

For sources, 35mm film has a grain resolution of about 3K x 4K (12 megapixels). Larger formats have even higher resolutions (i.e. 70mm would be somewhere around 6K x 8K for about 48 MP). Just for reference, 1080P is about 1K x 2K (2 MP), so there is lots of source material out there that could benefit from 4K or even 8K. (Let's not worry about specifics of various film types and aspect ratios.)

As to what you can actually see... I'm not going to dig up all the references, but remember that 35mm was shown on 20 foot screens and 70mm on 65 foot screens, none of which are going to fit in your house. With the limitations of smaller screen size in a home theatre, there is little benefit to go beyond 1080P. If you don't see pixelization now, then going to 4K won't have much benefit (you won't see the even smaller pixels). For a very large home theatre, with extremely good source material and optics, 4K will produce a better image, but the difference between that and 1080P will me minimal.

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Old 04-14-2015, 11:00 AM
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Yeah source material or lack of it is seriously stalling 4K at the moment

I actually can't remember a technology in recent history with such a delay between hardware and software

Upscaling is a load of bull, we need proper 4K content
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Old 04-14-2015, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swargolet View Post
This seems like a poor comparison to make. There are so many more factors that go into distinguishing what is real and what isn't than just resolution. I bet if you had a system that placed a 1080p 55inch display as a window, installed some sort of head tracking to move the image realistically, had accurate colors/contrast, and realistic scenery, it would be very hard to tell that it isn't a real window.
Hints of judder or motion blur kills it.
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Old 04-14-2015, 11:08 AM
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Hints of judder or motion blur kills it.
Yes it would, but that has nothing to do with resolution. My scenario assumes everything else is perfect, it is just the resolution I was talking about. I'm probably derailing this thread slightly though, so I'll stop.


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Old 04-14-2015, 08:44 PM
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can't have people catching up to 4k since there is zero (or real close to zero) 4k content ... nuthin to catch up with...
"Content" was a poor choice of words on my part. We are talking about a new format and the associated standards. That's really the container for the content. The content itself will come, but first they need the infrastructure in place so we can use it.

Both the content and the displays need to catch up. They've set the bar pretty high with the new standards, which I think is good. So instead of display manufacturers coming up with gimicks to exceed the current standards, they can work to meet the capabilities of the new format . Same thing on the content side. The studios have a huge amount of content that is better than Bluray, but it may take a while before they are maximizing the format with 4k and/or all of the other features.

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Originally Posted by swargolet View Post
This seems like a poor comparison to make. There are so many more factors that go into distinguishing what is real and what isn't than just resolution.
That's why the new formats include much more than just a bump in resolution to get closer to reality.

 

 

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Old 04-15-2015, 09:51 AM
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This is exactly the problem I'm having with sports. 1080p projection doesn't help so much when the source is 720p at best with lots of motion. I can't even imagine what I would do with 4k right now when a lot of what I watch isn't even up to snuff on my 1080p system. A good 1080p source looks awesome, but lower quality stuff is noticeably rough when you blow your screen up big enough.
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Old 04-15-2015, 10:56 AM
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Are they still using film to record movies? I thought they would have moved to digital recording by now.
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Old 04-15-2015, 11:03 AM
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Are they still using film to record movies? I thought they would have moved to digital recording by now.
They are using digital, but 4K digital cameras took time to get here. I know some movies are shot in 6K.

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Old 04-21-2015, 11:20 AM
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Lots of recent productions shooting on film.

Some TV Shows:
Breaking Bad, Walking Dead (16mm), Boardwalk Empire, True Blood, American Horror Story

Surprising number of movies:
Boyhood, Jack Ryan: Shadow Recruit, Edge of Tomorrow, The Imitation Game, Fury, Dracula Untold, The Amazing Spider-Man 2, Start Trek: Into Darkness, Interstellar, Transcendance, The Wrestler, Black Swan, Noah, Foxcatcher, The Grand Budapest Hotel, The Dark Knight Rises, Les Miserables, Django Unchained, The Fighter, The Master, Lincoln, The Hunger Games: Catching Fire, Man of Steel, The Lone Ranger, Fast & Furious 6...

Certain scenes on film:
Million Dollar Arm, The Monuments Men, Nightcrawler

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Last edited by Eyleron; 04-21-2015 at 11:52 AM. Reason: Added more shows and films
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Old 04-21-2015, 11:29 AM
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Several Use Cases for 4K+

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Originally Posted by Michael Sargent View Post
With the limitations of smaller screen size in a home theatre, there is little benefit to go beyond 1080P. If you don't see pixelization now, then going to 4K won't have much benefit (you won't see the even smaller pixels). For a very large home theatre, with extremely good source material and optics, 4K will produce a better image, but the difference between that and 1080P will me minimal.
If one sits close (big TV and 8' distance, or big monitors on a computer desk), one's visual acuity will exceed the display's, so there's one use case.

The other is what you said about a very large home theater. I have a 124" screen at 10' (and I see pixelization), my boss has a 135" screen (and I think he sits too close at 10'). If 1080p was just perfect at 60", I'd say at 120" where there's 4x the surface area(!!) that there's room for improvement.

Here's another use case that people don't think about. Movies are an art form, and they are collectible. If you're a fan of the movie, you might buy it. You might watch the extra features like making-of and interviews. You might treat certain scenes or frames like how we treat an art photograph or painting: freeze it, stand close, read the print in the newspaper about The Hulk. Examine the fine stitching in Lord of the Rings costumes. These details that are lost from the standard seating distance are there if one wants to delve in deeper. 4k.
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Old 04-22-2015, 11:44 AM
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I find 4K has a better benefit with games than movies, but it is a noticeable upgrade regardless.
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Old 04-22-2015, 02:11 PM
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I guess that's due to games having aliasing. For instance, with enough resolution you don't need anti-aliasing.

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Old 04-24-2015, 10:57 PM
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http://www.cnet.com/news/4k-content-...h-in-4k-today/

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Old 04-25-2015, 01:55 AM
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Make the technology stop. Just make it stop! I can't take any more progress!
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Old 04-25-2015, 01:57 AM
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I don't understand - every time I add a big number to a big number I get an even BIGGER number. It's like there's no limit to how big a number you can imagine. This is freakijg me out.
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Old 04-25-2015, 07:08 AM
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There's also an effort and lag between: "Our studio has this great 70mm material in the vault" and "pop in that movie."

New intermediates, soundtracks, etc. for output for the new medium. And while working on a 4k release, the studio may want to clean up some effects, color correct, or even restore damage to negatives.

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Old 04-28-2015, 12:14 PM
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Some good discussion of 4k and film from people in the industry:
In short, 4k has enough resolution to handle 35mm negatives, and it's superior to 35mm projection.
8k will be enough to handle the native (not upscaled 35mm) IMAX material.

Some interesting stuff about scanning and then processing for material that's the same from frame to frame. Similar to how compression algorithms look for the same. Except in this case, we're looking for where there's only a film grain difference, and then that grain can be removed with an increase in sharpness.

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