WHy shouldn't I buy the X1? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 101 Old 01-03-2003, 06:36 PM - Thread Starter
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????

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #2 of 101 Old 01-03-2003, 08:01 PM
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rainbows.
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post #3 of 101 Old 01-03-2003, 08:43 PM
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You shouldn't buy the X1 because you have $3,000 that is burning a hole in your pocket and you want a picture that is only $100 better than the X1!

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post #4 of 101 Old 01-03-2003, 09:06 PM
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I saw HS10, Z1 and X1. X1 ranked 3rd IMHO.
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post #5 of 101 Old 01-03-2003, 09:22 PM
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4x3 could be an issue.

-Mike Lindberg-
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post #6 of 101 Old 01-03-2003, 09:48 PM
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X1's ranking among today's resolution choices is an issue.
Current resolution offerings:

800x600=X1
848x600
964x544
1024x768
1280x720
1366x768
1280x1024
1365x1024
1400x1050
1920x1080
1600x1200
2048x1536
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post #7 of 101 Old 01-04-2003, 08:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lindberg
4x3 could be an issue.
How so?

Probably not a problem though. I will use it for about 95% DVD.

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post #8 of 101 Old 01-04-2003, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by leckian
X1's ranking among today's resolution choices is an issue.
Current resolution offerings:

800x600=X1
848x600
964x544
1024x768
1280x720
1366x768
1280x1024
1365x1024
1400x1050
1920x1080
1600x1200
2048x1536


I know this. But for DVD as my first projector, and for the cost thought it was a nice entry level to get into.

I do plan to buy a 1280X720 DLP 4X model afterwards... But I thought the X1 is good to get my feet wet with. It's either that or a used, rebuilt CRT model for about the same cost or less.

I am also seriously considereing the HT1000 NEC , but that's not even the full 1280X720 I really want.... So I am afraid.

Was thinking to try the X1 for a year or a few months or whatever, then sell it and upgrade when there better out for lower prices...

WHy do 1280X720 DLP 's costs 10 freakin Grand?

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post #9 of 101 Old 01-04-2003, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mfusick

I am also seriously considereing the HT1000 NEC , but that's not even the full 1280X720 I really want.... So I am afraid.
?
To go more into this.

I hear great things about this FP, but it's not full HDTV spec resolution, which if I was to spend that money it costs....I would want or expect.

The X1 costs so little that it's not a big deal.

My thinking was that with a 5 year warranty and long bulb life and the cost, the X1 is a no brainer I can't lose on. Even if I sold it for $999 later on, I think the $600 cost for say a year or less of ownership would have been worth it?

What do you think?

I can spend more If I have too.... But I don't want to unless I am going to get improvements worth the extra cost for watching DVD's.

Next year when there is more HDTV in my area.... I would of coarse want a HDTV spec Front Projector... but for now... the X1 seems to make sense for the price of almost nothing... The X1 retails for less than my current RPTV, or my speakers, and it only costs a few hundred more than my Surround RCVR.

It's really not a big investment... and I thought It would be a good starting point to learn about and get into FP.

I know myslef... and I will get sucked in and want somthing better, and even if I do a 720x1280 DLP now, I'll still want somthing better later...having made a wrong choice or simply wanting a newer product.

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post #10 of 101 Old 01-04-2003, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by mac2047
I saw HS10, Z1 and X1. X1 ranked 3rd IMHO.
Really?

Was it the image quality?

From what I can tell, the X1 lacks the punchy colors of the LCD models... and not as bright... so in back to back testing most people prefer the LCD.

What about screen door? LCD lower resolutions have this...

I don't see rainbows... atleast on the DLP sharp 9000 I checked out. I know the X1 has a 2X instead of the Sharp 4X wheel... So I plan to check out a freinds 2X model to see before I buy and find out the hard way.

the throw distance is killing me though... I need the X1 to be about 15 feet from my screen or wall to make my image size I think.

That means it will be behind me.... Hmm.....

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post #11 of 101 Old 01-04-2003, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Someone talk me out of it.....

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #12 of 101 Old 01-04-2003, 08:39 AM
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Keep the screen size reasonable (80" dia.) and a reasonably darkened room and you will think you have died and gone to heaven.
Widescreen material is still presented 60+ inches wide with the X1 on an 80" screen.
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post #13 of 101 Old 01-04-2003, 08:39 AM
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You shouldnt buy the X1 because you want to buy one of the other models where the depreciation in one year will be worth more than the cost of the X1. In the case of some of Leckians other resolutions make that depreciation enough to buy 5 X1's.

You may prefer screen door effect as in mac2047's choices of LCD's .. Also if you choose an LCD you prefer knowing that if you get dead pixels you feel completely comfortable knowing that there is nothing you can do about it except replace the panels, and that there is no warranty for dead pixels.

Your going to bob your head like Stevie Wonder while watching a movie and see rainbows.

lol... you got labeled AVS troublemaker..
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post #14 of 101 Old 01-04-2003, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mfusick
How so?

Probably not a problem though. I will use it for about 95% DVD.
I know that I don't have room for a 4x3 screen (don't ask) and I watch a lot of 4x3 material, and can't have the projector "filling out". That and I don't want spilled light of any kind due to how little light control I have. 16x9 is a must for me.

-Mike Lindberg-
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post #15 of 101 Old 01-04-2003, 09:35 AM
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As an X1 owner who has already put over 100 hours on mine, I can give you several reasons you should not buy an X1:

1. You will look like a slack-jawed idiot when watching it, because your lower jaw will be hanging down and you will sit and stare at the screen for hours.

2. You will have to spend countless hours online ordering X1s for your neighbors, because once they see yours, they will not rest until they have one too.

3. Your vocabulary will shrink to the level of a moron, since you will be mostly saying things like. "Holy s**t that looks good."

4. Your house will become totally trashed, since you'll no longer want to do anything but watch all your old dvds that now look a hundred times better than you remember.

5. If you have teenagers, you will no longer ever be able to get them, and their 26 friends out of the house. Ever.

6. You will become known in your neighborhood as a big fat liar--no one will believe you only paid $1500 for this thing.

7. You will become very unpopular, because you will piss off all your neighbors who just spent $2500 on a 53" rptv they thought was "big screen". You may also cause several divorces in the neighborhood, since many of the husbands with these new "big screens" will want to sell them at a loss and get an X1.

Buy the X1 at your own peril.

mike:D :D
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post #16 of 101 Old 01-04-2003, 10:58 AM
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Mike...

I am going to have to now recommend good therapists and family counsellors when I sell this projector.
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post #17 of 101 Old 01-04-2003, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mfusick
Really?

Was it the image quality?

From what I can tell, the X1 lacks the punchy colors of the LCD models... and not as bright... so in back to back testing most people prefer the LCD.

What about screen door? LCD lower resolutions have this...

I don't see rainbows... atleast on the DLP sharp 9000 I checked out. I know the X1 has a 2X instead of the Sharp 4X wheel... So I plan to check out a freinds 2X model to see before I buy and find out the hard way.

the throw distance is killing me though... I need the X1 to be about 15 feet from my screen or wall to make my image size I think.

That means it will be behind me.... Hmm.....


Local dealer called me for an HS10 demo since he got one in and he had to check it for his customer so I went to take a look. I have been checking an HS10 for quite some time for its availability but do not want to order it until I saw it personally. I read this forum a lot past moths and was impressed with the information of X1 posted here so I asked for a demo of X1 too hoping that I could take one home if the quality was acceptable.

Out of the box, HS10 just blew X1 away. There was no comparison for me. We did adjust X1 a little bit but the HS10 was just too good to spend time on X1. You have to have a really dark room for an X1 also.

Prior to seeing HS10 and X1, I saw Z1 and the picture was nice. However, it has more screendoor that HS10 but less than X1 IMHO. The picture quality was also better.

I saw 9000 some time ago and it was amazing. My jaws dropped. I think the DLP is the way to go if they can make it below $3000 for 16:9 format with picture quality of 9000.

LCD has dead pixels while DLP can have stuck mirror? I guess this depends on the warranty. Infocus stands behind this issue so there should be no problem.

After seeing these 3 projectors, I ordered HS10 and now I wait. I would not mind to order Z1 though. Just have to sit further back.

Above is just my opinion. You should demo X1 yourself (you may like it who knows!!).
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post #18 of 101 Old 01-04-2003, 04:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lindberg
4x3 could be an issue.
Why is 4:3 an issue? 95% of viewing materials are 4:3.
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post #19 of 101 Old 01-04-2003, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Why is 4:3 an issue? 95% of viewing materials are 4:3.
He said he'd be using it for 95% DVD... I don't know how many 4:3 DVDs most of you have, but outside of my Star Trek : TNG collection, I have VERY few... if most of your viewing will be widescreen formats (16:9 or wider) then the native 4:3 panel would cost you quite a bit of resolution when viewing widescreen material.

My biggest issue with the X1 is resolution-- followed by the fact that it is a native 4:3... lastly that it is DLP... rainbows and headaches would bug me to no end (I entertain a lot of guests... usually daily... if any of them were bothered by this it would bother me, too)...

I really wouldnt recommend the X1 to many people except for those who really do watch more 4:3 material than widescreen or perhaps for people who are serious gamers but cant break the bank on an XGA 4:3... if you're going to be up for mostly movies... then I would rather have the Sanyo Z1...if you can sit at a proper seating distance screen door may or may not be an issue... and I would take reduced black levels over the possibility of rainbows and/or headaches any day... just my preference though.
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post #20 of 101 Old 01-04-2003, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Why is 4:3 an issue? 95% of viewing materials are 4:3.
If you watch a whole lot of sitcoms, or C-Span.
I personally watch probably 2% 4:3...

98% of MY viewing is 1.78:1, 1.85:1, or 2.35:1.

with regards to the X1 debate, I have nothing valid to offer, because I've never seen any of these projectors in action... I'm thinking the HS10 is for me, but I haven't seen it yet.

Rainbows... whoa.
If you haven't seen them on DLP... good. I don't understand how anyone can stand those things. My friend just got the 61" Samsung DLP... and watching it I noticed what I first thought might be a rainbow... but I chalked it up to a trick of my eyes... and went on.

Pretty soon, everytime I glanced anywhere but directly at the screen, I saw those things, and it was REALLY disorienting... it felt like I was on some hallucinogenic (not that I would ever know anything about that) and I found it hard to actually watch the movie.

This may not be so for some, but I surely know that the Samsung DLP did it to me. The Sharp 9000 never bothered me with rainbows, nor did the Runco CL-500, and CL-700.

I personally think tossing $1,500 at a projector you have no intentions of keeping is foolish, but then... I understand. The desire for a low cost "band-aid" solution is strong.

I personally am practicing restraint... I want to order an HS10, but I'm searching for a dealer within 5 hours of Indianapolis that actually has one for me to see, so I can know what I'm buying.

Long story short... in my experience, rainbows = very much bad, "investing" money into a short term projector = financially unsound.

It doesn't sound like you really care much about the economics of the situation, but if that's the case... why not pony up for an HS10?
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post #21 of 101 Old 01-04-2003, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kidd Digital
Long story short... in my experience, rainbows = very much bad, "investing" money into a short term projector = financially unsound.
Excellent Point!

The X1 is a short term fix that it may prove to be one of the most expensive choices. As much as X1 proponents state that it is OK to watch either cropped DVD or to watch DVD with 30 lines of resolution dropped it does not make sense when there are other low cost options that don't force you to make such a basic compromise.
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post #22 of 101 Old 01-04-2003, 06:16 PM
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... I mean, it's up to you, if you want to buy a temporary fix... just to get by, you can... just understand that to most people it isn't going to make sense.

This isn't like buying a really cheap tire to hobble around on, until you can afford to replace all 4 with performance tires... this is a hobby of excess... and you already have an HD RPTV, I gather... therefore, you're already in excess.

Why try to be moderate in a world of excess?

Holy crap I just confused myself. Nevermind... I'm going to go eat Steak & Shake now.

Okay, what I was trying to say is that this is not a necessary step for you to take at the moment, and far be it from me, or anyone else here to talk you out of this decision, but if you want someone to talk you out of it, I can sure try.

X1 Pro's:

Big Screen
Affordable Price Tag (affordability is obviously relative)

X1 Con's:

4:3
Low Resolution
A lot of money to spend on something that you don't intend to keep, and will probably be worth 1/3 of what you paid for it a year from now
blasted rainbows (I don't care what anyone says, those *******s are distracting)


If you were saying "hi, I'm in the market for a low cost projector, I really want a nicer one, but it's just beyond my means, is the X1 decent?" I'm sure the response would be very positive towards the X1... but what you're saying is akin to saying "Hi, I drive a Corvette... but I really want a Ferrari... why shouldn't I buy a Porsche in the meantime to satisfy me, and then sell it in 6 months?"

It makes people say "You already have a Corvette... just enjoy that and wait it out 6 months for the Ferrari."
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post #23 of 101 Old 01-04-2003, 08:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks... That's what I am looking for.

The Sony HS10?

Anything else I should consider?

I was thinking that I like the blacks of DLP and I hate screen door.

I haven't seen rainbows yet... I'll look at the samsung DLP RPTV since someone says they see them on that....see if I see them.

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #24 of 101 Old 01-04-2003, 09:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kidd Digital


Long story short... in my experience, rainbows = very much bad, "investing" money into a short term projector = financially unsound.

It doesn't sound like you really care much about the economics of the situation, but if that's the case... why not pony up for an HS10?
NOt really...

I mean I could spend 4K if I thought I had too do it... Was looking at the HT1000 NEC too...

Seems like these are hard to compare....

I don't want to spend it if I don't have too... This is a toy and a stepping stone.

The way I look at it is for $1599 how much can I lose..... with a five year warranty.... I should be able to get $900 for it in a year right??? On ebay??

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #25 of 101 Old 01-04-2003, 09:01 PM
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How many of you people have actually seen the X1? I have--for over 100 hours, and the thing just keeps amazing me. No dust blobs. No vertical banding. Very good blacks. Nice shadow detail. Resolution is good--I see screendoor only when I get closer than 1.5x screen width, and I'm using a 105" screen Anyone out there considering this pj, I would heartily recommend it--unless you see rainbows. I'm not necessarily trying to defend this pj, I am just amazed by the number of people who have a woody over some of its admitted shortcomings. For cripes sake, I paid $1450 for it, and it kicks the crap out of my very highly tweaked 61 inch Sony RPTV. I've also got a Sanyo Z1 on the way--so I'll be able to give you a real side by side comparison soon. If you're listening to people who have not seen this pj, you should take their opinions not just with a grain of salt, but about 50 pounds of salt. Ask anyone who owns one, and they'll tell you flat out it's one hell of a pj, especially for the price. I am in the same position you are--I have a very nice rptv, but wanted a pj too--I have not regretted my decision for one moment. This little pj is simply an outstanding value that delivers pq damn close to the big boys.
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post #26 of 101 Old 01-04-2003, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by leckian
Excellent Point!

The X1 is a short term fix that it may prove to be one of the most expensive choices. As much as X1 proponents state that it is OK to watch either cropped DVD or to watch DVD with 30 lines of resolution dropped it does not make sense when there are other low cost options that don't force you to make such a basic compromise.
\\\\

I seriously doubt the X1 "may prove to be one of the most expensive choices." You'll lose a lot more by spending $3000 to $4000 on a pj that could lose half it's value in a year or so.Three years ago I bought a Sony W400Q for $3500--now it's worth about a grand. And the X1, less than half the original cost of the 400Q kicks its butt. I learned my lesson--in two years when I'm laughing because I can buy a new pj for $1500 again that's twice as good as anything out today, I'll be damn glad I didn't pour $4000 into a "state-of-the-art" "Ferrari".

As far as the X1s cropping, keep in mind it amounts to 6%, that most X1 owners have a very hard time seeing it even when they compare to the non-cropped mode, and that the X1 gives you the accuracy of 1 to 1 pixel mapping without the bother of an HTPC for this "basic compromise", and that the X1 allows you to view the dvd without cropping in the non-anamorphic 4:3 mode. If you're a purist, then even the slight cropping of the X1 will never make you happy. I personally have never felt I missed the 6%, and in fact, I see more of the total picture on the X1 than I do my rptv.

As far as there being pjs in this price range that don't ask you to make compromises, you ain't gonna find one. The Z1, X1, AE300, HS10 all have their faults.
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post #27 of 101 Old 01-04-2003, 10:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for the good points.

Everyone is pushing the LCD and the Sony HS10....? Why?

I am not really opposed to it, but considering I think the Grand Wega Sony LCD RPTV is a "dead pixel having no black making pig" would you still reccomend it?

Honestly I would rather slice my wrists and bleed to death than watch LCD blacks I think.... is the HS10 LCD as bad as the sony GWII?

I could not own one if it was...

2000:1 contrast of the X1 is a selling point...

So is the DCDi...

I don't want to deal with dust blobs or dead pixels either...

Should I just buy a HT1000? Even that's not 720px1280 HDTV spec though... I have problem spending that kind of money if it's not...

For $1449 the X1 is worth it I think...

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #28 of 101 Old 01-05-2003, 12:24 AM
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what shouldn't you buy the Z1?

simple answer - rainbows

I had never seen a rainbow (and I have viewed several DLP projectors) until I saw the X1.

Now if you think I'm alone on this - thing again. Some of my friends (one of them owns a piano 3100 - dlp) had also never seen rainbows before and both of them termed the rainbows on the X1 unacceptable.

Now it could be due the content that we were watching - dvd called dark city or it may have been the screen (super high gain).

If infocus can fix the rainbows the X1 would be a killer killer machine.

As it is now I think rainbows on the X1 are a deal breaker.
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post #29 of 101 Old 01-05-2003, 01:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by leckian
The X1 is a short term fix that it may prove to be one of the most expensive choices. As much as X1 proponents state that it is OK to watch either cropped DVD or to watch DVD with 30 lines of resolution dropped it does not make sense when there are other low cost options that don't force you to make such a basic compromise.
There is nothing lost at the top or bottom on 2.35:1 movies (most of the movies I watch) and if you're fanatic about not loosing insignificant pixels, you can always use an htpc or even use progressive scan and adjust the tracking and offset to see everything (at least I think I can see everything (even some borders that I think nobody is supposed to see... so in many case cropping a few pixels left and right is actually a desirable feature) with my setup)

In summary, the X1 rocks, but if you insist on spending twice as much, it's your choice...

PS: I was very bothered when I saw the first rainbows (probably because I read this forum too much) but if you relax and enjoy the movies rather than look for problems, you'll very seldomly notice them (they now bother me only when fast fwd'ing credits (white text over black bg) for instance which is 'after' the movie anyway...))

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post #30 of 101 Old 01-05-2003, 02:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mfusick
Honestly I would rather slice my wrists and bleed to death than watch LCD blacks I think.... is the HS10 LCD as bad as the sony GWII?
I can't tell you if you will be happy with the black level on any LCD, but if you like good blacks I would suggest the AE300 over the HS10. I know it could be the setup, but everything about the HS10 I saw tonight was great except that the AE300 was much better at showing black level transitions from what I saw. Our test was I think chapter 4 from Dark City where Jennifer Connelly is singing. The transition of her hair to a similar dark wall behind looked much better to me on the AE300 than on the HS10. I don't remember how the Z1 did, if I saw that scene.

The X1 we had was not calibrated and I had some trouble watching it because of the rainbows, but with the way it was setup on my small screen the scene where Jennifer goes to see the doctor after singing basically had brights and blacks and almost nothing in between. I was watching an image where maybe 65% of the screen looked like pure black to me. When I saw the other projectors on my big screen later I could see that there were all sorts of details that I had been missing. I have to think that the X1 needed some calibration, since I don't see how it could really be as bad as it looked in that one scene. It looked great in other scenes on my big screen, but then I had pain behind my eyes after watching it for a couple of minutes. It's a feeling that I don't get on my 3x Sharp M20x.

--Darin
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