Optoma UHD60 4K HDR Projector at CES 2017 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 164Likes
Reply
Thread Tools
post #1 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 12:04 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scott Wilkinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 2,696
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1432 Post(s)
Liked: 4086
Optoma UHD60 4K HDR Projector at CES 2017

The Optoma UHD60 4K HDR Projector offers a lot of performance for not a lot of money.

http://www.avsforum.com/optoma-uhd60...r-at-ces-2017/

Scott Wilkinson
Editor, AVS Forum
Scott Wilkinson is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 04:20 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mtbdudex's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 5,719
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 751
Awesome, with these "entry"($2.8k MSRP) 4K HDR Projectors now looks like 1080p is "dead" mostly for anyone looking at big screen HT.

2017, the year of 4K HDR Projectors
M Lo likes this.
mtbdudex is offline  
post #3 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 05:57 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 23
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 2
Great news, 4k seems to be starting to trickle down to mid-price projectors. Now let's wait for a review to see what contrast numbers can it produce.
coaxy is online now  
 
post #4 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 06:01 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
humbland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,532
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 379 Post(s)
Liked: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaxy View Post
Great news, 4k seems to be starting to trickle down to mid-price projectors. Now let's wait for a review to see what contrast numbers can it produce.
+1 on the DLP excitement front. The new 4K Benq offering seems promising as well.
DLP fans, this could be year of the 4K breakthrough. For our particular set up, we need powered lens controls and lens memory. Hard to see how that could be done at this price level, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed...
humbland is offline  
post #5 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 06:29 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
swarm87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: rhode island
Posts: 1,063
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked: 97
hopefully we can get some short throw models at decent prices now; those ultra short are too expensive and complete over kill

unless the udh60 can give me a 92-100" screen from ~8.5' away
DavidK442 likes this.

pcm=potato
bitstream=patato
swarm87 is offline  
post #6 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 07:35 AM
Member
 
Aquarian09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Damn .... this is big
Glad I didnt place order for JVC X5000 yet,
seems like I'll have to postpone the projector purchase for couple months more
Waiting for new JVC models also
bpassman likes this.
Aquarian09 is offline  
post #7 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 08:19 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Verge2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: arkansas
Posts: 2,965
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 715 Post(s)
Liked: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian09 View Post
Damn .... this is big
Glad I didnt place order for JVC X5000 yet,
seems like I'll have to postpone the projector purchase for couple months more
Waiting for new JVC models also
Then JVC will hammer this thing in every aspect other than sharpness with 4K.
kohe321 likes this.
Verge2 is offline  
post #8 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 08:29 AM
Advanced Member
 
Webmonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 975
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 32
No 3D???
Webmonkey is offline  
post #9 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scott Wilkinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 2,696
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1432 Post(s)
Liked: 4086
Quote:
Originally Posted by Webmonkey View Post
No 3D???
Nope. Optoma's 1080p models have 3D, but not 4K/UHD.

Scott Wilkinson
Editor, AVS Forum
Scott Wilkinson is online now  
post #10 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 08:43 AM
Member
 
zim2411's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 65
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
one with an RGBCY color wheel and the other with an RGBRGB color wheel.
Red, green, blue, cyan, yellow? What's the advantage of one over the other?
zim2411 is offline  
post #11 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 09:23 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
RLBURNSIDE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,455
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1706 Post(s)
Liked: 1362
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Nope. Optoma's 1080p models have 3D, but not 4K/UHD.
Grrr, I was considering this projector but not any more. I wonder if TI just didn't offer any reference 3D implementation for their new Faux-K chips and just said : you guys do it, and then they shrugged and didn't bother. Any of them.

Only way I'd get this now is if it by some miracle supports 120hz at 1080p which would allow outboard LCD shutter glasses to be used for 3D (like those older PC LCD monitors for NVidia Stereo 3D, all they need to have is support for 120hz, that's it).
robdman and Barry C like this.
RLBURNSIDE is offline  
post #12 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 09:57 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
RLBURNSIDE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,455
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1706 Post(s)
Liked: 1362
Quote:
Originally Posted by zim2411 View Post
Red, green, blue, cyan, yellow? What's the advantage of one over the other?
RBGCY probably has better colour gamut (or more saturated cyans and yellows? duh) I'm guessing, but sacrifices effective colour wheel speed from 2X to 1X multiplier. RGBRGB is 2X so it should have less rainbows for those who see it.
RLBURNSIDE is offline  
post #13 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 09:58 AM
Member
 
Aquarian09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verge2 View Post
Then JVC will hammer this thing in every aspect other than sharpness with 4K.
Yeah, thats very much true
JVC is my first choice always, but after looking at all the brands getting into 4K UHD projectors, i'll wait and see what best we can get, also, after the launch of new JVC models if the price of X5000 drops thats another jackpot but am sure JVC will not do any price drops after launching their new models.

Lets wait and see
Aquarian09 is offline  
post #14 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 10:59 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
erkq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,561
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 647 Post(s)
Liked: 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
Awesome, with these "entry"($2.8k MSRP) 4K HDR Projectors now looks like 1080p is "dead" mostly for anyone looking at big screen HT.

2017, the year of 4K HDR Projectors
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaxy View Post
Great news, 4k seems to be starting to trickle down to mid-price projectors. Now let's wait for a review to see what contrast numbers can it produce.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verge2 View Post
Then JVC will hammer this thing in every aspect other than sharpness with 4K.
This is not a true 4k projector, but rather the "Faux-k" pixel shifting sort like JVC's e-shift. I'm a fan, don't get me wrong, I own a JVC RS500 and think it's great. I just wanted to be clear that this isn't the full 4k image (which we don't seem to need anyway).
erkq is offline  
post #15 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 11:01 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Verge2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: arkansas
Posts: 2,965
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 715 Post(s)
Liked: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq View Post
This is not a true 4k projector, but rather the "Faux-k" pixel shifting sort like JVC's e-shift. I'm a fan, don't get me wrong, I own a JVC RS500 and think it's great. I just wanted to be clear that this isn't the full 4k image (which we don't seem to need anyway).
I'm aware, if you look at the cine4home screenshots compared to the epson shift anyway, it's night and day better. Not as good as a real 4k sony, but decently close.
Troy LaMont and erkq like this.
Verge2 is offline  
post #16 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 12:08 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
3DBob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Southeastern Michigan
Posts: 1,239
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 408 Post(s)
Liked: 130
Before we all get frustrated by lack of 3D: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/report.php?p=49626393 Please refer to that statement. Yes it will have 3D, but 1080p only since specs for 4K 3D do not exist yet. Though only 1080p, it will probably have more apparent resolution since one pixel will be 4 pixels on the 4k image. Others who have the 4K Sony have confirmed that the same--1080p 3D, but sharper. I have a contact request into Optoma to verify...more to come.
3DBob is offline  
post #17 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 12:15 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
RLBURNSIDE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,455
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1706 Post(s)
Liked: 1362
Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq View Post
This is not a true 4k projector, but rather the "Faux-k" pixel shifting sort like JVC's e-shift. I'm a fan, don't get me wrong, I own a JVC RS500 and think it's great. I just wanted to be clear that this isn't the full 4k image (which we don't seem to need anyway).
I often use the term "Faux-K" now but if it can indeed resolve all 8 million pixels it deserves to be called UHD native, otherwise it couldn't legally use the "4K" moniker which it can.

It's like calling single-DLP projectors greyscale, which they are, pedantically speaking. You never see more than one colour at once, and a 1080p DMD's native capabilities are in fact 1080p for all three colours, which is 1/3rd of what a 1080p monitor has. Is it fake / unfair to call a DMD with ~700k subpixels the same as one with 2M subpixels? Just because it uses temporal multiplexing to achieve all three colours? Same thing for this "faux-k" technique. If you can't tell the difference, or a test pattern, I don't think it makes a difference.

If we insist on calling these DLPs Faux-K despite being able to individually address and display 8 million pixels, then we should also call them "faux-colour" too which they are.

3000 lumens and high ANSI contrast, these should have very decent HDR performance. I wonder what's the final, calibrated, rec 709 vs P3 lumens. HDR really needs high peak nits and good ANSI contrast, not just on/off contrast.

I also wonder why this projector needs to be so large. There are BenQ single chip DLPs that are 1/4 of the size of this with 6000 lumens, lamp based of course. I guess the optics need to be larger?

Scott, did they mention frame interpolation? A 3000 dollar projector should have that, IMO.
n84china, Pyronaut and JeffR1 like this.
RLBURNSIDE is offline  
post #18 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 12:37 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
erkq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,561
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 647 Post(s)
Liked: 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
I often use the term "Faux-K" now but if it can indeed resolve all 8 million pixels it deserves to be called UHD native, otherwise it couldn't legally use the "4K" moniker which it can.

It's like calling single-DLP projectors greyscale, which they are, pedantically speaking. You never see more than one colour at once, and a 1080p DMD's native capabilities are in fact 1080p for all three colours, which is 1/3rd of what a 1080p monitor has. Is it fake / unfair to call a DMD with ~700k subpixels the same as one with 2M subpixels? Just because it uses temporal multiplexing to achieve all three colours? Same thing for this "faux-k" technique. If you can't tell the difference, or a test pattern, I don't think it makes a difference.

If we insist on calling these DLPs Faux-K despite being able to individually address and display 8 million pixels, then we should also call them "faux-colour" too which they are.

...
"Faux-k" is actually 4MP, not 8. Apparently it is legal to advertise 4K when it's faux-k because JVC has been doing it for many years.
erkq is offline  
post #19 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 12:46 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 23
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 2
I'm a little worried about contrast. Although It's clear that it won't compete with JVC in blacks (which imho its not the point due to being quite cheaper than JVC), ¿will it represent an improvement over previous DLP generation? The equivalent Benq 4k DLP showed pretty poor contrast numbers...
coaxy is online now  
post #20 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 01:01 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
3DBob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Southeastern Michigan
Posts: 1,239
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 408 Post(s)
Liked: 130
Of course, unless you are actually watching a 4K movie from a true 4K bluray, you are always getting scaled 4K. And cable typically sends movies out at 720p and a lot of programming on lesser than prime channels, unless you use a streaming service for movies, which might then be 1080p. And some streaming at 4k, but if your internet can't handle it, might be even less than 1080p. I verified this with xfinity (Comcast). We are in a world where the TVs and projectors are beyond the capability of most cable media services and media infrastructure.
3DBob is offline  
post #21 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 01:16 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
RLBURNSIDE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,455
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1706 Post(s)
Liked: 1362
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3DBob View Post
We are in a world where the TVs and projectors are beyond the capability of most cable media services and media infrastructure.
+1...Understatement of the year! (we only just started 2017 so that's not too bad)

What I find really silly is how often people want to upgrade static resolution but...hey, guys, we have had the capacity for 60 frames per second for 3/4 of a century on televisions, but movies still haven't caught up.

A 1080p movie shot at 60 frames per second would look far, far clearer, on current 1080p projectors, than a UHD Bluray at 24 fps on a UHD native projector, for any scene with motion in it, especially if the 1080p version included HDR and WCG as well. Plus, it would STILL cost less bandwidth. Our eyes use temporal supersampling at 83hz and if we had 120 fps video it would effectively double our static resolution as well. (noise and specular highlights moving around the image).

1080p / 120hz in terms of raw bandwidth is the same as UHD / 30hz, so slightly more than 24p. But compressed in HEVC? You could fit probably 2 1080p 120hz streams in the same bandwidth as a UHD 24p one, and it would look far better and clearer. Higher framerates compress far more efficiently than the same % increase in static resolution, hence it's a more efficient parameter to exploit.

There's a comparison on homecinema.fr of native shots at 1080p vs 2160p at various framerates and 1080p60 looks clearer than 2160p24 as soon as there is ANY motion, and once you go up to 60p or 120p there is a night-day difference in sharpness and clarity and realism.

I always laugh at the idea that we "need" UHD for sharper images, when HDR and HFR offer way more bang for the buck and HFR is ALREADY built in to literally every single consumer display device created in the past 75 years, it's just we don't use it. On purpose. And 60p is well within the "capability of most media services and infrastructure" as you put it, it's just not exploited.

The main reason I want to upgrade my projector is for HDR + UHD Bluray compatibility. I'm fine with 1080p native resolution, which I consider the JVCs to be. It's kind of moot worrying about 3D crosstalk performance on JVCs being poorer than DLP, if these new DLPs don't even offer 3D whatsoever. But the saving grace here would be a UHD DLP that can accept 1080p at 120hz so I can use IR based LCD shutter glasses for 3D and send the material in a frame sequential way (probably will have to buy a 3D video processor though, but 1080p ones should be fine since 3D Blurays are only 1080p).
RLBURNSIDE is offline  
post #22 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 02:36 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
3DBob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Southeastern Michigan
Posts: 1,239
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 408 Post(s)
Liked: 130
RLBURNSIDE, I agree. If people would realize that most 1080p media is already upscaled, maybe they would stop chasing the 4k rainbow. That said, I have plugged my USB memory stick into my LG 4K TV and watched some fantastic still pics in 4K. I have also looked at 3D MPO pics taken with 3D cameras and they look great as well (although in 1080p). People--if you have jpg pics on your PC, load them on a USB stick and plug into your 4K TV, and it should immediately recognize you have photos on it and allow you to watch them as a 4k slide show--now you will be amazed!
Haiej likes this.
3DBob is offline  
post #23 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 04:43 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 79
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Less than $3K MSRP for a true 4K or 8M pixel DLP, where do I sign up?
Mike Butny and prerich like this.
GekkoSoze is offline  
post #24 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 05:38 PM
Member
 
Hawkmarket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 137
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3DBob View Post
Before we all get frustrated by lack of 3D: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/report.php?p=49626393 Please refer to that statement. Yes it will have 3D, but 1080p only since specs for 4K 3D do not exist yet. Though only 1080p, it will probably have more apparent resolution since one pixel will be 4 pixels on the 4k image. Others who have the 4K Sony have confirmed that the same--1080p 3D, but sharper. I have a contact request into Optoma to verify...more to come.


To clarify you are saying the Optoma UHD60 4K projector will have 3d. Am I understanding that correctly?
Hawkmarket is offline  
post #25 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 06:09 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Verge2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: arkansas
Posts: 2,965
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 715 Post(s)
Liked: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by GekkoSoze View Post
Less than $3K MSRP for a true 4K or 8M pixel DLP, where do I sign up?
I'm not sure how, out of the endless threads, you are indeed the impression this is a true 4K projector?
Verge2 is offline  
post #26 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 06:13 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 79
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verge2 View Post
I'm not sure how, out of the endless threads, you are indeed the impression this is a true 4K projector?
If it can display 8M pixel image, it is 4K. This better than the Epson 5040 which can only display 4M pixel image. Pixel shift or not, 8M pixel image>4M pixel image.

I'll like to get a "Real" or "True" 4K PJ but none of that are available at $3K MSRP.
GekkoSoze is offline  
post #27 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scott Wilkinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 2,696
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1432 Post(s)
Liked: 4086
Regarding Epson/JVC pixel shifting versus TI's DLP pixel shifting, the former doubles the number of pixels from 2 million on the chip to 4 million on the screen, while the latter doubles the number of pixels from 4 million on the chip to 8 million on the screen. Thus, the TI approach is much closer to true UHD than the JVC/Epson method.

Scott Wilkinson
Editor, AVS Forum
Scott Wilkinson is online now  
post #28 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 11:33 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
dreamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Walnut, CA, USA
Posts: 2,987
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 942 Post(s)
Liked: 250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Regarding Epson/JVC pixel shifting versus TI's DLP pixel shifting, the former doubles the number of pixels from 2 million on the chip to 4 million on the screen, while the latter doubles the number of pixels from 4 million on the chip to 8 million on the screen. Thus, the TI approach is much closer to true UHD than the JVC/Epson method.
True, but is is still not 8M pixels simultaneously displayed is it ? Isn't it analogous to the difference between a 1080i display and a 1080P display ? Is this Optoma displaying even numbered lines during one cycle and then odd numbered lines in the next cycle ? Are we going to call this "full 4k UHD" just like 1080i claimed to be "full HD" even though the frames were 1/60th second apart ?

*********************
Kirk Ellis
BenQ W1070 VuTec 122" Screen
Harmon Kardon AVR 247 Parasound L&R Amp
Psycoustic Mark III L&R Towers, Boston Center
Energy Take 5 Surrounds, HSU Research Sub
dreamer is online now  
post #29 of 377 Old 01-08-2017, 11:59 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
blastermaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sunny Okanagan
Posts: 1,862
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 470 Post(s)
Liked: 598
I thought it would be a few years yet before I'd be able to afford to upgrade to 4k. Thank you, Optoma, for proving me wrong. My HD3300 has performed flawlessly for the last number of years, so I'll gladly support them again with my next theater upgrade.
blastermaster is offline  
post #30 of 377 Old 01-09-2017, 12:55 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 759
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 355 Post(s)
Liked: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamer View Post
True, but is is still not 8M pixels simultaneously displayed is it ? Isn't it analogous to the difference between a 1080i display and a 1080P display ? Is this Optoma displaying even numbered lines during one cycle and then odd numbered lines in the next cycle ? Are we going to call this "full 4k UHD" just like 1080i claimed to be "full HD" even though the frames were 1/60th second apart ?
I wouldn't say so because the pixels are overlapped rather than interlaced. Its sharpness advantage comes from having more pixels than LCD/LCoS Faux-K at the start, and probably approaches the 4K PJs because DLPs are inherently sharper, assuming they are single chip, single light sourced.
Mike Butny likes this.
TheronB is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

Tags
ces 2017 , hdr , Optoma , uhd60

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off