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post #1 of 70 Old 02-01-2017, 08:30 PM - Thread Starter
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used projector under 500$

So the lens must be made of glass (that feature isn't shown in amazon, so you'd have to find that out elsewhere)
high contrast ratio, and other perks such as RGB color wheel, no rainbow effect etc

So far I've stopped my choice at:
Epson 8350 (~409$)
SONY VPL-FE40 (~324$)

I'm only considering Sony because it's a great deal, but it seems to deliver lower quality than Epson, because it has only 700:1 contrast ratio, and supports SXGA resolution of 1400x1050, Epson supports full hd - 1920 by 1080...

what can you recommend?
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post #2 of 70 Old 02-01-2017, 08:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Also considering 3d Optoma HD142X 1080p projector (23,000:1 contrast ratio)

Of all projectors mentioned so far, which one's gonna deliver the best quality (2d)?
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post #3 of 70 Old 02-01-2017, 09:27 PM
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That Sony VPL-FE40 is an 11-year-old design that went out of production 6 years ago. It's an antique. It will not be up to modern standards.

The Epson 8350 is a 7-year-old design that went out of production last year. It's more up to date than the VPL-FE40 and has a lot of features such as extensive horizontal and vertical lens shift. It's still an acceptable performer as you can see by reading the 8350 owners thread on this forum.

The Optoma HD142X is a brand new model just introduced a few months ago. It's a lower end model than the Epson 8350 and lacks added features such as lens shift. But some people might prefer it because it's a DLP model whereas the Epson is LCD, and DLP is a little sharper than LCD. You can get a new HD142X with a full factory warranty for just over $500. Any used projector runs the risk of failing at any time with no warranty, so many would likely pick a new HD142X over a used model for around $500.
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post #4 of 70 Old 02-01-2017, 09:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
The Optoma HD142X is a brand new model just introduced a few months ago. It's a lower end model than the Epson 8350 and lacks added features such as lens shift. But some people might prefer it because it's a DLP model whereas the Epson is LCD, and DLP is a little sharper than LCD. You can get a new HD142X with a full factory warranty for just over $500.
I was under impression Epson's higher contrast ration would make for a better video quality, richer detail etc

so I guess I will settle for Optoma HD142, even though it's said to be technically a data projector
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post #5 of 70 Old 02-02-2017, 04:48 AM
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There is nothing wrong with starting off with a new data projector. Many can do excellent color reproduction with the non RGB color wheels as long as you use them in their movie / cinema modes and realize the output lumens will be somewhat lower.

I have had FP home theater for over 10 years and always use crossover data projectors. The one I’m using now I have had going on 2 years and it cost $365 brand new with a 3 year warranty.

Bud
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post #6 of 70 Old 02-02-2017, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by vizakenjack View Post
I was under impression Epson's higher contrast ration would make for a better video quality, richer detail etc

so I guess I will settle for Optoma HD142, even though it's said to be technically a data projector
Epson just makes up contrast ratio numbers.


The 8350 doesn't even have an iris right? I bet it measures under 1000:1.

The optoma is probably 1500:1.
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post #7 of 70 Old 02-02-2017, 08:32 AM
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I see a JVC in the classified for $495
JVC-RS1 with new Osram lamp

Doug
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post #8 of 70 Old 02-02-2017, 08:37 AM
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The 8350 measures 786:1. http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...-labs-measures


They all lie about the contrast.
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post #9 of 70 Old 02-02-2017, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vizakenjack View Post
I was under impression Epson's higher contrast ration would make for a better video quality, richer detail etc

so I guess I will settle for Optoma HD142, even though it's said to be technically a data projector
Manufacturer specifications for contrast can be misleading and are not useful in selecting a projector. It's best to read professional reviews that measure how much contrast the projector produces in the real world.

The HD142X is what's known as a crossover model that can be used for both data and home video. Another crossover projector that has been rated a little higher than the HD142X is the BenQ TH670 which thewirecutter.com rated "The Best Cheap Projector" for full 1080p HD and has a current street price of $499 new.

If your budget was a little higher you could consider the BenQ HT2050, which is a pure home video model that produces a more refined image than the crossover models and is the most often recommended projector for under $1,000. BenQ is currently selling factory refurbished HT2050s with 1-year factory warranty for $637 as you can see at the following link:

benqdirect.com/benq-outlet/refurbished-projectors/ht2050-refurb.html
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post #10 of 70 Old 02-03-2017, 12:39 PM
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I can highly recommend the Optoma HD142x. It is supposed to have just an OK contrast ratio, but I don't notice that. Blacks are excellent, IMHO. I can't see any rainbow effect. To me, the biggest drawback is the placement issue. It has a paltry 1.3:1 zoom and limited lense shift. It took me a couple of days to get my ceiling mount exactly right.
I guess the refurbished Benq should be a candidate, but I do prefer new.
Bear in mind that my experience on this site has proven that I am nowhere nearly as discriminating as I once thought I was.
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post #11 of 70 Old 02-03-2017, 12:53 PM
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... It has a paltry 1.3:1 zoom and limited lense shift. ...
The HD142X does not have limited lens shift. It has no lens shift at all. The HT2050 has limited vertical lens shift.
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post #12 of 70 Old 02-03-2017, 02:13 PM
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The HD142X does not have limited lens shift. It has no lens shift at all. The HT2050 has limited vertical lens shift.
I just upgraded to the Optoma HD142X myself and can testify that it's a really nice projector for the money. Previously I had an Optoma W311.

The 142X does not have lens shift - it *says* it does, but it's useless. All it does is digitally shift the image, so you lose pixels on whatever side you're moving it toward.

For reference, I do AVN installs and have seen/used/installed a ton of different projectors. If you're in a smallish home theatre like me, it's a solid choice. My throw distance is 11' and I get a ~7' wide image that's clean, crisp and bright, even in ECO mode. 3D is solid - a noticeable step up from the W311, even though they say they have about the same lumens. Viewing distance is ~16'.
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... The 142X does not have lens shift - it *says* it does, but it's useless. All it does is digitally shift the image, so you lose pixels on whatever side you're moving it toward. ...
Actually Optoma does not say the HD142X has lens shift. It's advertised and listed in the on-screen menu as Image Shift. As you said, unlike true lens shift that optically shifts the image without degrading it, Image Shift digitally shifts the image in the same way digital keystone correction does by remapping pixels and losing resolution. It should be avoided if you want the highest resolution image.

So far all the reviews have said the HD142X is a great deal at its price point. But for $100-$200 more there are other sub-$1,000 models that have more features and produce a better overall image.
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post #14 of 70 Old 02-03-2017, 03:15 PM
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Please don't offer to sell the OP your projector, it violates the forum rules and could will get this thread locked.

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post #15 of 70 Old 02-04-2017, 05:56 AM
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I just upgraded to the Optoma HD142X myself and can testify that it's a really nice projector for the money. Previously I had an Optoma W311.

The 142X does not have lens shift - it *says* it does, but it's useless. All it does is digitally shift the image, so you lose pixels on whatever side you're moving it toward.

For reference, I do AVN installs and have seen/used/installed a ton of different projectors. If you're in a smallish home theatre like me, it's a solid choice. My throw distance is 11' and I get a ~7' wide image that's clean, crisp and bright, even in ECO mode. 3D is solid - a noticeable step up from the W311, even though they say they have about the same lumens. Viewing distance is ~16'.
The Optoma HD142X has the type of color wheel design I have been experimenting with for the last year and a half. It is a non RGB and a RGBCYW but the industry going back more to what they had in crossover DLP projectors 10 years ago when they had RGBW. They are giving a larger amount of the color wheel over to the RGB sectors and a small amount to the CY sectors. If you look at the spec of this projectors color brightness where they just measure the RGB output they say it max 700 color lumens. But if you view other reviews they measure brightness in the lower few modes where the colors are quite accurately blended and say it is 1200 lumens. Of course they throw color out the window in the torch setting meant for business presentations and advertise it as 3000 plus lumens. Those lumens were never intended for movies but marketing leads you in that direction.

TI wrote a lot about this concept and its ability to enhance colors and brightness. In reality the dedicated HT projectors RGBRGB come out right around the same number say 1200 lumens of accurate color lumens and just don’t have the top end for business use, and they may or may not have a noticeable edge in color accuracy to the eye of the user. So for all practical purposes IMO the advantage of a projector like this boils down to cost and something like 30% savings. 30% is 30% even if it is only 200 bucks. $200 means different things to different people for sure.

As to the digital “lens shift” I wish all projectors had this feature. It cost really nothing to add except a few lines of code. I had it in my first projector and used it to move a scope image higher on the screen when watching reclined or when I had people viewing from my second row. I also sometimes enjoyed lowering the image to eyes a center of the screen when no one was in the back row and I wasn’t sitting reclined. I really wish they did a CIH mode as well with the digital shift. I was disappointed in the projector I bought as it has a digital shift but they limited it for whatever reason to 10 pixels.

I’m going to be keeping my eye on the HD142X for a little more than $500 it sounds like a lot of projector for the money.

Bud
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post #16 of 70 Old 02-04-2017, 10:44 AM
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So far all the reviews have said the HD142X is a great deal at its price point. But for $100-$200 more there are other sub-$1,000 models that have more features and produce a better overall image.
I'd be curious what you would recommend that fits your description ($100-$200 more).
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post #17 of 70 Old 02-04-2017, 10:58 AM
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I'd be curious what you would recommend that fits your description ($100-$200 more).
There are a pretty limited number of 100-200 dollar improvements. I wont speak for Dave but the common logic here is if it isn’t RGBRGB in the DLP lineup then it is a business projector or a business projector with crossover potential. There are a handful but most are outside the 200 unless you look at factory refurbs.

If you read deep enough into the TI white papers behind the non RGB colors it seems quite logical that a yellow segment for instance would help making yellow a color most difficult from RGB only. And one part white will equal one part each RGB. These white papers show the possibility for an almost HDR situation when properly controlled. Most here don’t buy into that logic.

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post #18 of 70 Old 02-04-2017, 03:35 PM
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I'd be curious what you would recommend that fits your description ($100-$200 more).
Let me start of by saying that Optoma markets the HD142X as its least expensive, entry level 1080p home video projector. So right away you have several Optoma models with better specs and more features that have street prices less than $200 more than the HD142X such as the HD27 and HD28DSE. It would make absolutely no marketing sense for Optoma to have the lower cost HD142X outperform its more expensive models.

Beyond that the street price for the BenQ HT2050 is now almost exactly $200 more than that of the HD142X, and the HT2050 is often recommended as the best overall performer for less than $1,000. The new BenQ HT1070 costs even less than the HT2050 with the same image quality but fewer features.

All of the good reviews for the HD142X have been based on its price/performance ratio, not purely on its performance. It's a good deal for those who can't afford an extra $100-$200 for a more premium model with better performance. But it's not in the running for best overall projector for less than $1,000.
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post #19 of 70 Old 02-04-2017, 04:31 PM
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The Optoma HD142X has the type of color wheel design I have been experimenting with for the last year and a half. It is a non RGB and a RGBCYW but the industry going back more to what they had in crossover DLP projectors 10 years ago when they had RGBW. They are giving a larger amount of the color wheel over to the RGB sectors and a small amount to the CY sectors. If you look at the spec of this projectors color brightness where they just measure the RGB output they say it max 700 color lumens. But if you view other reviews they measure brightness in the lower few modes where the colors are quite accurately blended and say it is 1200 lumens. Of course they throw color out the window in the torch setting meant for business presentations and advertise it as 3000 plus lumens. Those lumens were never intended for movies but marketing leads you in that direction.

TI wrote a lot about this concept and its ability to enhance colors and brightness. In reality the dedicated HT projectors RGBRGB come out right around the same number say 1200 lumens of accurate color lumens and just don’t have the top end for business use, and they may or may not have a noticeable edge in color accuracy to the eye of the user. So for all practical purposes IMO the advantage of a projector like this boils down to cost and something like 30% savings. 30% is 30% even if it is only 200 bucks. $200 means different things to different people for sure.
There's theory and there's reality. Reality is that every DLP projector manufacturer in the world uses RGBRGB color wheels for all of their more premium home video models and non-RGBRGB color wheels for their lower cost home video models. Guess why? Because lumen for lumen non-RGBRGB color wheels cannot match the image quality of RGBRGB color wheels at any comparable brightness setting. For example, the HD142X produces its most accurate color balance in its dimmest mode (Reference) which is several hundred lumens dimmer than the HT2050 in its dimmest and most accurate color mode (Cinema).

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As to the digital “lens shift” I wish all projectors had this feature. It cost really nothing to add except a few lines of code. I had it in my first projector and used it to move a scope image higher on the screen when watching reclined or when I had people viewing from my second row. I also sometimes enjoyed lowering the image to eyes a center of the screen when no one was in the back row and I wasn’t sitting reclined. I really wish they did a CIH mode as well with the digital shift. I was disappointed in the projector I bought as it has a digital shift but they limited it for whatever reason to 10 pixels.
Projectorcentral.com did a great job of describing how digital image shift degrades a full frame image by cutting off some of the HD142X's 1920x1080 image pixels but does have limited use in shifting a 2.4:1 image up or down on a 16:9 screen by cutting off pixels in the black bars:

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As a side note, the HD142X offers a digital image shift, but this is not a feature that contributes to mounting flexibility like physical lens shift does. Normally, lens shift actually moves the full optical path left-or-right and up-or-down with all projected information intact. When the HD142X does a digital image shift, the image on the screen does shift, but it loses vertical or horizontal pixels on the edge in the direction of the shift. In other words, if you perform a digital shift to the right of 5% of the image width, you simply lose the 5% of the image on the right side. It can be used to shift a 2.4:1 format movie up or down in the black bar space but other than this it is of limited use in trying to re-position the image on the screen.
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I’m going to be keeping my eye on the HD142X for a little more than $500 it sounds like a lot of projector for the money.
I agree that the HD142X is a lot of projector for its low price. It's just not as good overall as the better models with RGBRGB color wheels and added features that cost more.
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post #20 of 70 Old 02-05-2017, 08:35 AM
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There's theory and there's reality. Reality is that every DLP projector manufacturer in the world uses RGBRGB color wheels for all of their more premium home video models and non-RGBRGB color wheels for their lower cost home video models. Guess why? Because lumen for lumen non-RGBRGB color wheels cannot match the image quality of RGBRGB color wheels at any comparable brightness setting. For example, the HD142X produces its most accurate color balance in its dimmest mode (Reference) which is several hundred lumens dimmer than the HT2050 in its dimmest and most accurate color mode (Cinema).
I would have to say a company the size of Texas Instruments DLP division deals in reality as much as theory. I don’t proclaim to be a color light scientist, I don’t have a testing lab for such things and I don’t have privy to the algorithms these many projector manufactures use in creating billions of colors from 3 or 6 components. Brilliant Color technology is certainly still evolving as I have been looking at color wheel designs and no two are alike. The trend is the RGB segments are growing in size and proportion and the non RGB segments are becoming smaller proportioned differently as well. If all a manufacture wanted to do was produce a very bright business projector with color would be to go back to a brighter lamp larger power supply and a RGBW color wheel like they did 10 years ago. They would have no problem hitting 3000 lumens output. They are not doing that because business projectors are no longer doing just power point presentations in schools and the workplace. They are really not shooting for the home theater market as they also have more expensive products aimed at that market. On the other hand schools and business are demanding quality video presentation. And of course there is the idea lowering product cost. Why build a 450 watt projector when you can build a 250 watt projector and still print 3000 lumens on box. Smaller wattage demands translates into manufacturing savings and greater profits and lower prices to the consumer in a market with lots of competition. They do market research that is unbelievable and know the serious folks here at AVS are very informed but they are looking at all the markets outside the “business” market.

Is the theory flawed or is there other realities at play, or is the technology still evolving.

Read this white paper and ask yourself is he talking about HDR long before we heard of HDR. I started a few threads and had some response to my questions about these non RGB DLP projectors but I never really got a good answer as to why a RGBRGB projector can produce a truer yellow than a projector with a yellow segment along with RGB segments.

All I know by visually watching these projectors and studying how the better ones work is the algorithms used for the lower half of the advertised lumens seem to be quite accurate and HDR like the upper half of the lumens quickly degrade in quality in favor of brightness / contrast. It seems logical when you compare the watts of light output with the goal of meeting an advertised spec that is out of the reach of that wattage without diluting colors. Something they have to have to sell it as a business projector.

The real question is where are the RGBXYZ Brilliant Color home theater projectors? Why does the technology stop at “Crossover” projectors?
Is there a HDR RGBXYZ Brilliant Color home theater projector on the horizon?
Or is David C. Hutchison of TI full of beans as you suggest?

http://focus.ti.com/download/dlpdmd/...hite_paper.pdf

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post #21 of 70 Old 02-05-2017, 04:50 PM
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Bud, that TI paper "Introducing BrilliantColor Technology" by David C. Hutchison makes for interesting reading. Since TI introduced BrilliantColor in 2005 the data in the paper would be more than a decade old now.

In the more than 10 years that have passed since BrilliantColor was introduced many projector companies have agreed with the proposal that adding some combination of yellow, cyan and magenta to RGB can produce better colors in a bright image than just adding white. There are very vew RGBW models still available and most of the least expensive DLP projectors have some CMY with RGB. That's one of the reasons why the lower end DLP models have become so much better.

However over that same decade not a single projector company in the world has agreed with the theory that any combination of CMY with RGB is superior to RGBRGB. All of the more premium, higher-rated DLP models from every projector manufacturer come with RGBRGB. The reason is that RGBRGB produces the best balance of color and brightness. That's the only reasonable explanation why no projector manufacturer has added any CMY to RGB on their best DLP models.
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post #22 of 70 Old 02-06-2017, 04:56 AM
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Bud, that TI paper "Introducing BrilliantColor Technology" by David C. Hutchison makes for interesting reading. Since TI introduced BrilliantColor in 2005 the data in the paper would be more than a decade old now.

In the more than 10 years that have passed since BrilliantColor was introduced many projector companies have agreed with the proposal that adding some combination of yellow, cyan and magenta to RGB can produce better colors in a bright image than just adding white. There are very vew RGBW models still available and most of the least expensive DLP projectors have some CMY with RGB. That's one of the reasons why the lower end DLP models have become so much better.

However over that same decade not a single projector company in the world has agreed with the theory that any combination of CMY with RGB is superior to RGBRGB. All of the more premium, higher-rated DLP models from every projector manufacturer come with RGBRGB. The reason is that RGBRGB produces the best balance of color and brightness. That's the only reasonable explanation why no projector manufacturer has added any CMY to RGB on their best DLP models.
Dave I agree that RGBRGB is what has ruled the HT DLP market for the last 10 years. Many models are virtually identical and I have to believe a RGBRGB , RGBCMY , RGBCYW color wheel all have to be about the same amount to make. But they result in a projector that is 1/3 more expensive for some reason.

HDR is all the craze now and HDR as close as I can understand improves CR and expands the color gamut. That’s also what Brilliant color was attempting to do in a way. Of course it can’t expand the color gamut if the source DVD / BD is calling for colors bound within a RGB set. What the non RGB colors can do is add brightness like a RGBW could do and at the same time use the secondary colors to help the hard to make colors like yellow and bright reds. What they do hurt is producing the dark base colors as they are too bright and a second set of RGB would greatly help there.

As close as I can figure and my eyes tell me the same thing when I run in my movie setting causing the CYW to be virtually shut off and if you go by the colorlightoutput numbers everything except RGB lumens are ignored when they measure each independently and add them up. We know the non RGB’s are invoked though because testing measures overall higher in movie mode. So in the case of these RGBCYW “3000 lumen” projector most of the good ones measure out at about 1000. Where a RGBRGB similar power measures closer to 1500. So if movies are your only thing (lights out) and you need those extra lumens of course RGBRGB would be the HT choice.

I believe the difference shows when you start watching sports and regular TV with their much brighter content and you watch with more ambient light people could find an improvement in CR and the bright colors against the ambient light with Brilliant color. IMO most people like myself last night watching the super bowl in a room with a fair amount of task lighting on and taking the RGBCYW up to about its 2/3 point of overall brightness would find the CR the extra lumens allowed would outweigh the loss in the dark color levels as the image is almost all bright and contrasting.

For that reason I don’t denounce all projectors with secondary colors as not a smart move in a home media room and only worthy of bright classrooms and conference rooms. Mixed media is much different than cinema only and saving 30% is always a nice thing.

Bud
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post #23 of 70 Old 02-06-2017, 09:13 AM
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Well, the RGBRGB models aren't 1/3rd more expensive just for the color wheel. They typically represent more upscale models that add features such as more zoom range, some lens shift, etc.

When a projector with an RGBXXX color wheel is set to most accurate color in its dimmest mode ignoring the XXX segments then, effectively, color wheel speed is cut in half. For each revolution of an RGBXXX color wheel where XXX is ignored an RGBRGB color wheel would be effectively twice as fast. Also when those XXX segments are ignored and no light is coming through it's the equivalent of having three black segments significantly cutting lumen output compared with the RGBRGB wheel that's always passing lumens through each segment.

RGBRGB models also have brightest modes that make them usable in some ambient light. The colors won't be as accurate as in lower lumen output settings but they will be more accurate than an RGBXXX model at the same lumen output. Of course the RGBXXX model can get brighter at its highest settings but at the expense of further color degradation. Most of those extra lumens will be white lumens and not color lumens, so OK for casual viewing but not something many people would consider a quality image compared to RGBRGB.

So, sure, if you just want a big, bright image in ambient light an inexpensive model with RGBXXX can work. But if viewing in ambient light is a high priority then you might be better off with a bright LCD model that produces equal lumens in both whites and colors even at full brightness. The Epson LCD models may not be 100% color accurate in their brightest modes but they do have an advantage over DLP.

I don't denounce any type of projector because each one has a feature mix that appeals to different people. The RGBXXX DLP models primarily feature low price and a usable if far from balanced brightest image. For those who have $500 or less to spend and only want a new (not used or refurbished) projector the RGBXXX DLP models are about the only game in town.

For those new to front projection the decision-making process for picking a first projector can be daunting. For some an RGBXXX model may make sense. For others RGBRGB or LCD may make more sense. All those of us with more projector experience can do is try to lay out all the options and all the pros and cons to help those new to front projection through their own decision-making process.
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post #24 of 70 Old 02-06-2017, 10:47 AM
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I don’t think when a RGBXXX projector is in its most accurate mode it is shutting down everything except the RGB the colorlightoutput site would like you to believe that as they are trying to show a bit of an unfair comparison between the two technologies. Light bursts are primarily going thru the RGB sectors but bursts are also going in between segments blending brightness with a non-primary color and also if needed adding in a full burst. The bright colors are going to do nothing to improve a dark color as one of the main components of a dark color is black the un-talked about segment on the color wheel. That’s because black isn’t on the color wheel it is in the micro mirror turning the light off. Black works the same way in a RGBRGB as it does in a RGBXXX and dark colors don’t need a lot of bursts of primaries because they are not bright.

That’s my point exactly we are told these projectors are only using half the light in the best mode but testing and watching proves otherwise. And in each successive bump up in brightness mode you then can invoke 10 levels of brilliant color I believe. Perhaps you are correct in movie mode with brilliant color set to zero you are forcing RGB only. I was pretty sure though PC measured mine at 1000 and RGB alone was going to be 700.

If we knew what was going on in the minds of the people programing and testing these things we would know more. I have talked to quite a few people on the subject that have thought a lot on the subject. And the conclusion is always there are benefits to the secondary colors for brightness and filling some of the hard to blend parts of the gamut and of course there are down sides in not having twice the RGB components.

If there is more than just the color wheel then where is the RGBRGB projector with limited zoom and so forth for 500 bucks. They would sell a million of them.

For the OP and the others with suggestions of their well liked RGBXXX projectors for home theater they know what they see and their usage patterns and maybe haven’t thought about this to the extent I have. A lot more of these are being sold into home theater than what one might think here on the forum.

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post #25 of 70 Old 02-06-2017, 12:18 PM
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In brightest mode projectorcentral.com measured the Optoma HD142X at 2575 lumens and in most accurate mode at 985 lumens, or 38% of maximum. For the HT2050 they measured a high mode of 1824 lumens and a most accurate mode of 1255 lumens, or 68% of maximum. That's the kind of difference you get between RGBXXX and RGBRGB when comparing their brightest and most accurate modes.

Of course people who don't visit places like this forum often have no clue about how the game is played. If they do any comparison at all they look at price and manufacturer specs for maximum brightness (and maybe contrast) and go with the lower cost and bigger numbers not knowing there are other important factors at work. They just assume that beyond simple brightness and contrast numbers that the images will otherwise look the same. So they end up with less expensive RGBXXX models and are thrilled at having a bigger image than any TV they've ever seen.
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post #26 of 70 Old 02-06-2017, 02:34 PM
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The brightest mode means nothing on a RGBXXX projector nor does the percentage of the “Best Mode” of that number. What is important is how many lumens do you require and what the PQ is at that lumen output. No one is ever considering running at max lumen output or what the PQ is at that output. The HT2050 draws 330 Watts. The HD142X draws 260 Watts. If we want to talk percentage that’s 27% increase in power of the better more expensive Benq.

So the Benq runs between 1255 & 1824
The Optoma runs between 985 & 2575 using 27% less power and costing 34% less 549.00 & 738.00

The real question is what is the PQ of the Optoma when it is adjusted between 1255 &1824 and what type of media will be viewed under those light levels? By the way Cinema mode is measured at 1265 and vivid is 1530. Reference mode is the one below Cinema and is the 985 you mentioned. I have not played around or tested this Optoma projector but I have a year and a half experience with a RGBXXX projector with similar specs as to brightness and a quite similar color wheel. I can say that I have found bumping this projector from 985 to 1265 the secondary color segments tend to improve rather than distract from the PQ and I doubt if many could see an improvement one to the other. By eye I don’t feel anyone would ever complain about color PQ with a projector like the Optoma at least to midpoint of its max rated lumens. Is the PQ exactly the same who knows maybe it is better maybe worse maybe the same. But seeing as how it is doing it for 34% less cost and with 27% less power that’s pretty impressive in my book.

I’m speculating and you are speculating as to PQ comparison measuring apples to apples I would love to see someone compare something like this.

People maybe don’t research this stuff to death. I’m ashamed at every projector for inflating every spec there is in some ways. I’m dumbfounded how people buy stuff based on simple inflated specs. But none of that makes something bad it just makes the company seem foolish and the consumers fools. It is no different than starting a model number off with HT and that somehow makes it a Home Theater projector. Non of that means anything show me a apples to apples test and then we can talk dollar to dollar comparisons in PQ.

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post #27 of 70 Old 02-06-2017, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
... Is the PQ exactly the same who knows maybe it is better maybe worse maybe the same. ...
If the PQ of the cheaper RGBXXX models was the same or better than the more expensive RGBRGB models then I would have expected at least one experienced reviewer to have made that observation by now. If it were true I would be recommending to everyone to buy a cheaper RGBXXX model over a more expensive RGBRGB model.

But I've seen zero evidence to indicate there's any merit in the notion that projector companies would make the performance of their cheaper units equal or superior to their more expensive units. It's simply not a good business model for any manufacturer of any product line.

By the way, Evan Powell did a nice job of describing what happens with an RGBXXX color wheel in his review of the Optoma HD28DSE which is rated at 3,000 lumens but only delivers 639 lumens in Reference mode where color and white brightness are equal:

Quote:
Color Brightness. The HD28DSE has a color wheel configuration of RYGCWB. The "W", or white segment in the wheel, allows the projector to vary the amount of white relative to the color information that defines the picture. You can control this one of two ways, either by selecting the preset color mode, or by adjusting the level of Brilliant Color. If you choose the Reference mode, it turns off the white segment entirely, and the brightness of the color components of the signal (red, green, and blue) are equal to total white light. That is why the Reference mode is much lower in total lumens than the other preset modes.

If you choose any of the other preset modes at their factory default settings, an additional dose of white light is added to the color components. How much white is added is controlled by the Brilliant Color slider on a scale of 1 to 10. In Bright mode, Brilliant Color defaults to 10, but the amount of color information is not increased. So in this mode color brightness equals 34% of total White. The practical effect of this is that colored objects in scenes will appear darker than they should, and white objects will glow brighter than they should. And overall, the picture is much brighter than it otherwise would be.

In Cinema mode, the Brilliant Color setting defaults to 8, which raises the color brightness measurement up to 40% of White, and total lumens are about 1600. However, as you move the Brilliant Color slider down to its minimum setting of 1, total lumens are reduced to about 800 while color brightness is boosted up to about 79% of White. At this setting the picture is, relatively speaking, more in balance. White objects still have somewhat of an overdriven glow compared to Reference mode, but since this makes the picture appear both brighter and higher in contrast, many viewers will like the effect. Serious videophiles will not care for it as much, but we suspect most serious videophiles are spending more than $799 for their projectors to begin with.
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post #28 of 70 Old 02-06-2017, 03:43 PM
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Another good take on RGBXXX and BrilliantColor comes from thewirecutter.com's comparison review naming the BenQ TH670 "The Best Cheap Projector."

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A note on color management

BrilliantColor is a feature that adds cyan, yellow, and sometimes white segments to the DLP color wheel (which traditionally includes just red, green, blue, and sometimes white). These segments let more light through, producing a brighter white and thus better contrast ratios, which gives the on-screen image more pop.

But BrilliantColor has an unfortunate side effect: far less-accurate color. All other modern display technologies (LCD, LCOS, OLED) produce their images through a combination of red, green, and blue (and yellow, in one case). Most companies are very good at combining these colors correctly to get other colors. Adding cyan, magenta, and yellow completely changes how colors mix, and apparently it doesn’t work quite as well, at least not at this price. So when you turn on BrilliantColor, the contrast ratios improve, but the colors become less accurate.

The BenQ TH670 is the only projector we tested that let us turn off BrilliantColor to get more accurate results, though the contrast ratio then drops in half, from 1120:1 to 523:1. A formula called DeltaE measures color errors; we use the 2000 version, where errors below 3.0 are considered to be invisible to the naked eye. With BrilliantColor on, the DeltaE for colors on the BenQ TH670 averages 8.50, with most color errors measuring above 3.0, meaning you can easily see that they don’t look quite right. When you turn BrilliantColor off, the DeltaE falls to 4.53, with most colors displaying errors below 3.0, so they look perfect.

If you leave BrilliantColor on, the BenQ TH670 offers color performance similar to that of the other models we tested. Its contrast ratio, however, is much higher—between 25 percent and 450 percent better. No other projector we tested produced a color-error level below 7.10, even when we adjusted their BrilliantColor settings to their lowest level. Some of the other projectors even let us set BrilliantColor to Off or to 0 but still could not match the accuracy of the TH670.
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post #29 of 70 Old 02-06-2017, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
If the PQ of the cheaper RGBXXX models was the same or better than the more expensive RGBRGB models then I would have expected at least one experienced reviewer to have made that observation by now. If it were true I would be recommending to everyone to buy a cheaper RGBXXX model over a more expensive RGBRGB model.

But I've seen zero evidence to indicate there's any merit in the notion that projector companies would make the performance of their cheaper units equal or superior to their more expensive units. It's simply not a good business model for any manufacturer of any product line.

By the way, Evan Powell did a nice job of describing what happens with an RGBXXX color wheel in his review of the Optoma HD28DSE which is rated at 3,000 lumens but only delivers 639 lumens in Reference mode where color and white brightness are equal:

Again if all that would be needed is a tiny glass wheel tinted RGBRGB instead of RGBCYW why isn’t there a $400 cheap accurate 1000 lumen projector. Many people would need nothing more powerful and they would sell like hotcakes.

I don’t disagree with what Evan Powell wrote I actually agree and it is exactly how I use my 1000 lumens of best projected light with the lights down on a 100” screen watching movies. It is also the contrast and additional color pop in vivid mode that allows a much brighter ambient light level and makes sports come alive. Most people don’t care about perfect color reproduction of a football game when they have the house lights turned up. And most of the time a room full of people moving around eating chips and salsa and drinking beer don’t want to be in a bat cave together with their eyes fully dilated watching a film like sporting event. Parents with little kids running around watching monsters inc. also want a brighter setting than a bat cave. These animated films look great with those vivid colors and enhanced CR and pop.

I don’t know a serious videophile that is looking for a $500 projector, those same serious videophile are not looking for an $800 benq RGBRGB as well. Why should we set the standard of excellence for a cheap bargain basement projector on anything more than is the image satisfying to the guy and his family that want a big bright vivid image. I have dozens of friends with 60” plus flat panel TV’s and I go over and they sit in bright living rooms and they are set to vivid. No one I know has them set to movie as they want that HDR like image for sports and tv. Most retail stores stop and watch what TV’s people are drawn to like moths.

Most people will never see a sub $500 projector set up in a room designed for projection to be able to comment on what they actually see. I would suggest more people play with one sometime and get a feel for what they can do.

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post #30 of 70 Old 02-07-2017, 02:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Manufacturer specifications for contrast can be misleading and are not useful in selecting a projector. It's best to read professional reviews that measure how much contrast the projector produces in the real world.

The HD142X is what's known as a crossover model that can be used for both data and home video. Another crossover projector that has been rated a little higher than the HD142X is the BenQ TH670 which thewirecutter.com rated "The Best Cheap Projector" for full 1080p HD and has a current street price of $499 new.

If your budget was a little higher you could consider the BenQ HT2050, which is a pure home video model that produces a more refined image than the crossover models and is the most often recommended projector for under $1,000. BenQ is currently selling factory refurbished HT2050s with 1-year factory warranty for $637 as you can see at the following link:

benqdirect.com/benq-outlet/refurbished-projectors/ht2050-refurb.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Let me start of by saying that Optoma markets the HD142X as its least expensive, entry level 1080p home video projector. So right away you have several Optoma models with better specs and more features that have street prices less than $200 more than the HD142X such as the HD27 and HD28DSE. It would make absolutely no marketing sense for Optoma to have the lower cost HD142X outperform its more expensive models.

Beyond that the street price for the BenQ HT2050 is now almost exactly $200 more than that of the HD142X, and the HT2050 is often recommended as the best overall performer for less than $1,000. The new BenQ HT1070 costs even less than the HT2050 with the same image quality but fewer features.
How does the new BenQ 1070 compare to the old? I ended up buying the original 1070 2.5 yrs ago and felt it was ok. I happen to have a friend who offered his BenQ W7000 for $1050 with four pairs of 3d glasses and a mere few hundred hrs on the original bulb/unit entirely so I returned the 1070 and bought it from him. I felt it was a decent step up for sure and justified at the $400 increase. Now if I were to pay retail for that W7000 perhaps I would not have felt it justifiable. Nonetheless it was really sharp on a basic Spears and Munsil disc calibration. I loved the detail and clarity but black levels kinda sucked. Even though I wish I didn't get rid of it...

So here is my question. I am in an awkward transition again before dedicated room comes into play. So I want to spend $700 ish on a ok projector to go big screen again and do an DIY AT for my mains. So how does the BenQ HT2050 compare to the W7000? Have black levels evolved in DLP projectors? I am no videophile, 85% audio but I do appreciate a good picture and will spend several grand on a nice PJ when the time comes.

Should I hold out and upgrade to the likes of a Sony 40es? I have some gear and other stuff to sell...I'm just trying to find that point of picture quality and honestly ok black levels are probably my main concern. The original 1070 black levels really sucked, the W7000 was a step up but still not the best. There is a Panny AE8000u for $7000 but has 4100 hrs and needs new bulb.

Any advice for a video/PJ noob is appreciated

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