Optoma UHD60 & UHD65 4K/UHD HDR DLP Projectors Now Available - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 1932 Old 06-05-2017, 01:38 PM
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I'd have to agree with Sage here, sorry.
Those are very dangerous words.
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post #32 of 1932 Old 06-05-2017, 01:43 PM
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Projector Central just did a small comparison of the projectors. It seems their conclusion was the Epson 5040 was superior in almost every way with the exception of 4K content where the Optoma was sharper. If 4K resolution is your number 1 priority then the Optoma is the way to go. It held no advantage in resolution with content 1080p or less which is where the contrast/brightness/3D/etc. advantages all went to the Epson. Just depends on what you watch and prioritize.
They also said the frame interpolation of the Optoma is about the best they've ever seen.

The limited lens shift rules out the Optoma for me. I'll be happy with my 5040ub.
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post #33 of 1932 Old 06-05-2017, 01:47 PM
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Support Blu-Ray 24fps 1080p 3D format?
No 3D.

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post #34 of 1932 Old 06-05-2017, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by curtishd View Post
I am trying to understand the lens shift on this... can I shelf mount it at the height of the screen?
I'm afraid not. As with other Optomas the "lens shift" will apparently mostly correct the projector's "offset". If you table mount the projector, you can get the bottom of the image close to the level of the projection lens. Or you ceiling mount it and the top of the image is approx. 10" below the level of your projection lens.

What interests me personally is whether you can electronically shift a 21:9 Cinemascope image all the way to either the top or bottom edge of the DMD display area (something I recommended to Optoma many moons ago).

And, of course, I'll be interested how the UHD 65 upscales standard FullHD Blu-ray resolution.
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post #35 of 1932 Old 06-05-2017, 02:37 PM
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At these prices, there's no way they can afford to include a decent lens...certainly not one that is capable of passing all 8.3 million pixels unmolested (i.e. soft). That begs the question...is one better off with a 2K single-chip projector that can deliver a razor sharp image from 2K sources? I guess it depends on seating distance and screen size. Also, what percentage of 2020 can it achieve on the 2.0a input? Hard to imagine that it would include sophisticated color processing and filtering at the price. But in the absence of comparison, it probably does a decent job, and it does provide 4K bragging rights to would-be owners.
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post #36 of 1932 Old 06-05-2017, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by curtishd View Post
I am trying to understand the lens shift on this... can I shelf mount it at the height of the screen?


No. Like most DLPs this projector has very limited lens shift. No horizontal and the vertical shift amounts to 18% of the image height. This is a unit designed for ceiling mount and ceiling mount only.

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post #37 of 1932 Old 06-05-2017, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
@zombie10k has reported that there's some conflicting info stating that it will indeed do DCI-P3 color gamut. It could be marketing or truth. We don't know for sure yet.
The manual mentions a "native" color mode which may be dci-p3. But then again, all the DLPs can tone map BT2020/DCI-P3 to rec709. So technically they are all capable of being compatible with bt2020/dci-p3.

Problem is, due to the color wheel, even if truth you are likely talking 900 calibrated lumens tops when the lamp is brand new and at ideal zoom range. A bit too low as after a bit of use and zoom you are probably talking more like 750 lumens tops. Better off just taking the extra lumens and using BT2020 mapped to rec709.

For DLP you really need LED/Laser to do anything more than rec709 effectively in this pricerange.
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post #38 of 1932 Old 06-05-2017, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete View Post
At these prices, there's no way they can afford to include a decent lens...certainly not one that is capable of passing all 8.3 million pixels unmolested (i.e. soft). That begs the question...is one better off with a 2K single-chip projector that can deliver a razor sharp image from 2K sources? I guess it depends on seating distance and screen size. Also, what percentage of 2020 can it achieve on the 2.0a input? Hard to imagine that it would include sophisticated color processing and filtering at the price. But in the absence of comparison, it probably does a decent job, and it does provide 4K bragging rights to would-be owners.


Not sure why you would assume that. Single chip DLP has an extraordinarily simple light path so my guess is they can afford the optics vs something similarly priced in 3LCD or LCoS. From the initial glimpse on projectorcentral it appears optics and image sharpness / clarity isn't going to be a problem for these projectors. Jury is still out on the rest of it.

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post #39 of 1932 Old 06-05-2017, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by DDailey View Post
I certainly hope they included a slider for on/off/auto for Pixel Wiggling in the menu.
Sorry for the dumb question but what does Pixel Wriggling mean/do?

Also, if I want to watch various streaming sources like Netflix that send HDR in the stream, what is the best device?

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post #40 of 1932 Old 06-05-2017, 05:49 PM
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I'm afraid not. As with other Optomas the "lens shift" will apparently mostly correct the projector's "offset". If you table mount the projector, you can get the bottom of the image close to the level of the projection lens. Or you ceiling mount it and the top of the image is approx. 10" below the level of your projection lens.

What interests me personally is whether you can electronically shift a 21:9 Cinemascope image all the way to either the top or bottom edge of the DMD display area (something I recommended to Optoma many moons ago).

And, of course, I'll be interested how the UHD 65 upscales standard FullHD Blu-ray resolution.
I'm trying to understand this lense shift and projector mounting and is having difficult time (first projector). With the Epson 5040, there's plenty of lense shift for me to be less precise with mounting. But with the Optoma unit, it appears that mounting has to much more precise. Now, if I'm planning on a 110" screen and mounting the projector about 13 to 14 feet away, where approximately should the middle of my lense be in relation to my screen? thanks.

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post #41 of 1932 Old 06-05-2017, 06:16 PM
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I'm trying to understand this lense shift and projector mounting and is having difficult time (first projector). With the Epson 5040, there's plenty of lense shift for me to be less precise with mounting. But with the Optoma unit, it appears that mounting has to much more precise. Now, if I'm planning on a 110" screen and mounting the projector about 13 to 14 feet away, where approximately should the middle of my lense be in relation to my screen? thanks.
If it is like most DLP's - for rear ceiling mount it would be slightly above the top of the projector screen. Inverted on a mount. Can't do a rear ceiling height shelf mount with DLP unless you get really creative.
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post #42 of 1932 Old 06-05-2017, 06:21 PM
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No. Like most DLPs this projector has very limited lens shift. No horizontal and the vertical shift amounts to 18% of the image height. This is a unit designed for ceiling mount and ceiling mount only.
I agree. My current ceiling mounted PJ would be easy to manually adjust from side to side, but, up and down, not as easy.

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post #43 of 1932 Old 06-05-2017, 08:21 PM
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I have seen one in the flesh the projector is nice but it had horrible black level.

But this is only my opinion im sure at this cheap price point many will like it.


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post #44 of 1932 Old 06-05-2017, 11:21 PM
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I have seen one in the flesh the projector is nice but it had horrible black level.

But this is only my opinion im sure at this cheap price point many will like it.


Asab
Horrible Black Level would be a deal killer for me. We will have to wait and see. Perhaps Best Buy will get them in soon?
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post #45 of 1932 Old 06-06-2017, 12:22 AM
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I have seen one in the flesh the projector is nice but it had horrible black level.



But this is only my opinion im sure at this cheap price point many will like it.



Asab

Are you sure it was the UHD65, or could it have been the UHD60? Was it at a trade show? The reviews I saw of it there were only showing the projector pretty much out in the open and not in a dedicated room with light control.
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post #46 of 1932 Old 06-06-2017, 02:05 AM
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Checked the UHD 65's user manual.


"Image shift" (i.e. to move a 21:9 Cinemascope image on the DMD display element) has 100 control steps, which sounds promising, but I guess I'll have to wait for feedback from someone to verify whether you can really shift the 21:9 image segment all the way to the top or the bottom edges.


One thing I definitely do not like is the remote control. Apparently Optoma is using its standard bone-shaped RC where the function buttons "3D" and "keystone" are now - of course - with no function.
Good thing I still have my Optoma HD 83 and its beautiful RC (illustrated below) which I might use for both, i.e. should I get the new UHD 65.





There is however one thing I do NOT understand:

From what I read here at the AVS the US price is 2.499 US $ (that would be approx. 2.222 € today).

The German price (without VAT) is still 2.772 €. So I have to pay 500 € more just because I live in Continental Europe, what's wrong with that?

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post #47 of 1932 Old 06-06-2017, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
Checked the UHD 65's user manual.


"Image shift" (i.e. to move a 21:9 Cinemascope image on the DMD display element) has 100 control steps, which sounds promising, but I guess I'll have to wait for feedback from someone to verify whether you can really shift the 21:9 image segment all the way to the top or the bottom edges.


One thing I definitely do not like is the remote control. Apparently Optoma is using its standard bone-shaped RC where the function buttons "3D" and "keystone" are now - of course - with no function.
Good thing I still have my Optoma HD 83 and its beautiful RC (illustrated below) which I might use for both, i.e. should I get the new UHD 65.





There is however one thing I do NOT understand:

From what I read here at the AVS the US price is 2.499 US $ (that would be approx. 2.222 € today).

The German price (without VAT) is still 2.772 €. So I have to pay 500 € more just because I live in Continental Europe, what's wrong with that?
Import tax and extremely high logistics costs.
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post #48 of 1932 Old 06-06-2017, 05:56 AM
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I wouldn't put a lot of stock in the PJC review. Seegs has ordered one and it will be interesting to hear his opinion.

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post #49 of 1932 Old 06-06-2017, 06:48 AM
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Import tax and extremely high logistics costs.

AFAIK import tax in Germany for consumer electronic products is 0%, but a VAT of 19% is imposed on all products which I already considered / subtracted, so my question remains.


Or Optoma USA is anticipating the implementation of the new import taxes the 45th president has announced. So eventually we'll all pay the same price.

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post #50 of 1932 Old 06-06-2017, 07:16 AM
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Okay my question is why Frame Interpolation so important on the UH65(500 price markup) but you also loose 800 lumens but at a high price ???

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post #51 of 1932 Old 06-06-2017, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Not sure why you would assume that. Single chip DLP has an extraordinarily simple light path so my guess is they can afford the optics vs something similarly priced in 3LCD or LCoS. From the initial glimpse on projectorcentral it appears optics and image sharpness / clarity isn't going to be a problem for these projectors. Jury is still out on the rest of it.
It's all relative. Projectorcentral may describe the image sharpness as "not a problem", but if the optics/lens is not capable of passing 93 line pairs per millimeter, it's not completely resolving 8.3m pixels. Lenses with this capability are expensive. That's all I'm saying.
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post #52 of 1932 Old 06-06-2017, 08:04 AM
 
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Okay my question is why Frame Interpolation so important on the UH65(500 price markup) but you also loose 800 lumens but at a high price ???
Those aren't 800 extra colour lumens on the 60 vs the 65, but white lumens, which is only useful for data projectors like in a boardroom or classroom. The 65 is better for movies.

FI has nothing to do with lumens but this does seem to have the best FI in the industry. Pixelworks FTW!
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post #53 of 1932 Old 06-06-2017, 08:05 AM
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Okay my question is why Frame Interpolation so important on the UH65(500 price markup) but you also loose 800 lumens but at a high price ???
It's important to me, I would have no problem paying the extra money for that.
Look at the funeral scene from "Billy Lynn's Long Half Time Walk" at 24 fps where the camera passes the head stones _ it's an absolute mess and on a big screen, it's even worse.
The HFR version is nice and clean and I can actually look at it.

Ang Lee made no attempt what so ever to avoid the excessive frame judder on those head stones.

A good FI system cleans that up very nicely where you would be hard pressed to see the difference between the FI and the HFR version.
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post #54 of 1932 Old 06-06-2017, 08:07 AM
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Those aren't 800 extra colour lumens on the 60 vs the 65, but white lumens, which is only useful for data projectors like in a boardroom or classroom. The 65 is better for movies.

FI has nothing to do with lumens but this does seem to have the best FI in the industry. Pixelworks FTW!
Okay thanks for clearing that up. Also why is FI so important ?

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post #55 of 1932 Old 06-06-2017, 08:12 AM
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Okay my question is why Frame Interpolation so important on the UH65(500 price markup) but you also loose 800 lumens but at a high price ???

I can only speak for myself, but Frame Interpolation (especially for UHD program content) is very important to me, I'm spoiled by the PureMotion FI performance of my Optoma HD 83(00) which effectively elimates motion blur and image judder.


Here are two examples from a Sony 4K experience over at my friend's place:


THE MARTIAN - fantastic image clarity and detail but during a camera pan of the Martian landscape the image 'stuttered' (image judder), really took me out of the film.


STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - there's so much handheld camera shaking going on in the early parts of the film, that at times you can't tell whether it's a DVD, a Blu-ray or a UHD BD you're watching because any details are lost in motion blur.


Now, the PureMotion engine of the UHD 65 will probably take care of these issues, which is something I really look forward to.


Thus far I wasn't really interested in UHD BD because of the lack of FI in 4K compatible projectors, the UHD 65 looks like a candidate that could change my attitude.
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post #56 of 1932 Old 06-06-2017, 08:14 AM
 
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On a large screen you can see all the judder and motion blur inherent in 24 frames per second movies way more, so FI on projectors becomes important for image quality. Judder is annoying and distracting and FI is the only real way to cure it (until most movies become high framerate which could take a while, but will happen eventually...because, duh).

Most people (according to scientific studies) prefer higher framerates when given the choice and when not subjected to stigma and groupthink bias, common on this site where FI is seen as evil but landscape panning shots skipping across the screen and action scenes so blurry you can barely make out what's going on are A-OK.

If you visit AV sites and forums in the UK, Europe, and Asia, people are far more receptive to the problems of low framerate content and how to solve them. Put simply, once you get a super big screen, all the flaws from low temporal resolution become more prevalent and thus more irritating. With FI there was always the objection of haloing and other artifacts but apparently this latest projector has the state of the art which looks great and artifact-free. (according to ProjectorCentral, of course).
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post #57 of 1932 Old 06-06-2017, 08:26 AM
 
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Also, another thing worth mentioning is that HDR makes judder more apparent because HDR accentuates silhouettes and high-frequency detail in moving objects and lights, thus makes each frame's static detail more pronounced. This has the side effect of also exposing the flaws in the framerate, making FI even more important.

People might remember old CRTs flickering more on a white background than a darker one, it's because higher peak brightness fluctuating to darkness is more obvious. And that was at 60hz. The same principle applies to when specular highlights which HDR exposes more are moving across the screen, it makes it as if each pixel is "flickering" since low framerates tend to have high frequency detail jump from one location to another. This is bad enough in SDR, but HDR makes it super obvious. Hence, FI. Of course I have no issue with people not wanting it when it was poorly implemented, but on a low setting it should smooth out panning shots at least without making it look "too smooth". I always put it on max. Once you get used to it it becomes hard to go to the movies and watch films without it. It's like Plato's Cave or Alice taking the Red Pill, leaving illusions behind.

There were several space and landscape panning scenes in Rogue One, Interstellar, and of course the latest Star Trek which were just brutal to watch in the theater, but once I got home I could experience those movies in a better way without that annoying judder and skipping. Motion blur is also annoying too. A lot of the benefit of 4K static resolution gets wasted the second things are in motion, due to blur. But frame interpolation allows you to take more full advantage of the static resolution. Temporal and spatial resolution go hand in hand, and help (or hinder) one another, so higher framerates via FI add up to a much more convincing and immersive experience. Clearer, sharper, more fluid. Just better in every way.
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post #58 of 1932 Old 06-06-2017, 08:34 AM
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so I'm not thrilled with the throw ratios but I think I might be able to make it work

the trick is how far down would I have to hang the projector to get the image to land right?

so at a throw distance of ~17' where could I adjust the image (vertically) to relative to the lens of the projector?

I couldn't figure out how to get projector central to tell me that.
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post #59 of 1932 Old 06-06-2017, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
If you visit AV sites and forums in the UK, Europe, and Asia, people are far more receptive to the problems of low framerate content and how to solve them. Put simply, once you get a super big screen, all the flaws from low temporal resolution become more prevalent and thus more irritating.
I concur, here's what the German reviewer Ekki Schmidt had to say about the Acer V9800:

"Defizite gibt es hingegen in der Bewegungsschärfe: Der Projektor verfügt über keinerlei Zwischenbildberechnung und zeigt bei 24p Zuspielung eine eher ruckelige und wenig gleichmäßige Bewegtdarstellung. Hier verliert er deutlich, selbst bei abgeschalteter FI der Konkurrenten. Dadurch leidet auch der sonst so hervorragende Schärfeeindruck."

Translation:

"However there are deficits in motion sharpness: The projector does not feature any Frame Interpolation and reveals with 24p input rather juddering and little homogenous motion displays. In that regard he clearly loses, even with deactivated FI of the competitors. Thus the otherwise excellent sharpness impression gets diminished."

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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
With FI there was always the objection of haloing and other artifacts but apparently this latest projector has the state of the art which looks great and artifact-free. (according to ProjectorCentral, of course).
If it does the same good job as his predecessor HD 83(00) did with DVDs and BDs now with UHD BDs I'm not worried one bit.

Had a chance to test the FI performance of a JVC DLA-X35 and was rather underwhelmed, none of the Clear Motion Drive settings got close to the performance of the Optoma HD 83 and its siblings up to the HD 50, I think I understood for the first time why there is talk of haloes and artifacts (in contrast the latest JVC DLA-X5500 delivers a good FI performance that's almost indistinguishable from the PureMotion FI performance I've seen with Optomas).

"It is only about things that do not interest one that one can give a really unbiased opinion, which is no doubt the reason why an unbiased opinion is always absolutely valueless." Oscar Wilde
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post #60 of 1932 Old 06-06-2017, 08:40 AM
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My 5 year old ... needs a new bulb

hey I'm all about being strict with your kids but calling them dim bulbs is sort of harsh =D
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