Epson Home Cinema 4000 4Ke HDR Projector Debuts - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 11:20 AM
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Okay what does this offer that the 5040 doesn't beside the three hundred dollar price difference ?
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post #32 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
There's one UHD Bluray at 4K60, Billy Lynn, so far, and even though it's not in HDR (I believe), all UHD Blurays are encoded in 10-bit minimum, meaning you will get 8-bit instead on this projector. This will result in more banding, for sure.

.
So the 5040/4000 will play all UHD discs made to date except Billy Lynn at 4K24/10 bit/422?

(I assume all UHD discs made to date are 24p or 30p)
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post #33 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 11:37 AM
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that is a good price considering it has 3D support, full P3 and motorized lens controls, all missing from the competitively priced Optoma UHD60.

The heat is on in the 2K projector price range.
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post #34 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 12:32 PM
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4K signal input compatibility chart from 4000 4ke manual attached
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post #35 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 12:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Rgb View Post
4K signal input compatibility chart from 4000 4ke manual attached
That chart doesn't really make sense though, because HDMI 2.0a can't do anything beyond 8-bit in 4:4:4 at 4K60 in SDR either, so several of those "SDR" cells should be empty. The thing that tells me it's not 18gbps is exactly this: if it can't do HDR10 at 60hz, it's because it can't muster 10-bit even at 4:2:0 or 4:2:2, meaning it's got 10 gbps HDMI chips for sure.

Just like the 5040 etc.

And considering it's likely just a rehash of the same electronics, but cheaper, that makes sense (from their point of view...for a consumer, it sucks).
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post #36 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 12:47 PM
 
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So the 5040/4000 will play all UHD discs made to date except Billy Lynn at 4K24/10 bit/422?

(I assume all UHD discs made to date are 24p or 30p)
Yeah, it all you care about is plugging a UHD Bluray player and watching 24p movies, then 10gbps is fine. But for something with such low input lag and support for 3D, it's really disappointing. And for streaming sources, there's plenty of HDR10 at 4K60 on YouTube and such that you will never see on these projectors. (unless it has built-in apps for that).

It would be extremely irritating to me if I had to keep switching between 60hz and 24hz in order to turn on HDR.
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post #37 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
Looks like they're advertising 4K60 in 420 only (look at the website under full specs). That means no HDR at 4K60, means no HDR gaming at 4K. Doesn't matter that much, because HDR is really the important thing (lumens + native on/off contrast). But true 18 gbps input ports would open up other options like 1080p at 120hz in HDR10 mode. And THAT's exciting for gamers. (at least myself). Of course I'd definitely try 4K60 HDR10 too but I don't think the extra processing power for 4K is worth it given that this is really just a 1080p projector. 120hz would indeed represent a big boost in sharpness and clarity and smoothness (we are much closer to the spatial limits of resolution than temporal with current display tech, so 120hz is a much better feature to have than 4K, even razor-sharp 4K like on DLPs IMO).

As soon as you have basically any motion, all those razor sharp details are smeared away due to the low temporal sampling rate. (persistence based motion blur which is added by your mind, not the display itself). To even get full use out of a 1080p display you'd need like 1000 fps or so. Check out blurbusters.com




All these Epson projectors use a Cinema filter in the light path, which is activated or removed electronically using gears, a motor, and a sliding mechanism, and have for the past five years or so. I bought one for my w1070 DLP, and year it looks great but it is quite a bit dimmer.

I read that for the 5040, the measured lumens are basically cut in half with the filter active. So, no, probably not 2200 lumens in WCG mode. Maybe even less than 1000 with calibration. We'll see!

The good thing about the Epsons is they have awesome input lag, at least the 5040 and 6050 models, with 28ms! That's at 1080p60 so who knows at 4K60. Also not sure about 4K upscaling / e-shift enabled.
Let me be perfectly clear. I am enjoying the heck out of my Epson5040UB projector because it has auto lens memory. I can watch the 2:35.1 scope presentation without the necessity of anamorphic optics and motorized sled which can cost double the price of the projector. My 1080P films which number close to one thousand have been given new life. The UHD discs I've started collecting are amazing, once I learned how to use settings on the fly. I'm still very happy with one gripe. The HDMI board that is restricting throughput of any input over 10.2gpbs. My only complaint. 3D brightness is the best I've seen and most immersive of any projector I've viewed. Long life bulb when compared to my Panasonic AE8000U is still very strong and bright after 2700 hours in a little over six months. Six months. That's a record number of hours for our home cinema in such a short amount of time. I'd have to say that is because once mounted the Epson 5040UB is dangerously addictive. If I think of anymore attributes, I'll edit this post. if anyone else has highlights of their Epson 5040Ub, please feel free to add comments. Cheers!
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post #38 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by john barlow View Post
Let me be perfectly clear. I am enjoying the heck out of my Epson5040UB projector because it has auto lens memory. I can watch the 2:35.1 scope presentation without the necessity of anamorphic optics and motorized sled which can cost double the price of the projector. My 1080P films which number close to one thousand have been given new life. The UHD discs I've started collecting are amazing, once I learned how to use settings on the fly. I'm still very happy with one gripe. The HDMI board that is restricting throughput of any input over 10.2gpbs. My only complaint. 3D brightness is the best I've seen and most immersive of any projector I've viewed. Long life bulb when compared to my Panasonic AE8000U is still very strong and bright after 2700 hours in a little over six months. Six months. That's a record number of hours for our home cinema in such a short amount of time. I'd have to say that is because once mounted the Epson 5040UB is dangerously addictive. If I think of anymore attributes, I'll edit this post. if anyone else has highlights of their Epson 5040Ub, please feel free to add comments. Cheers!


The 10.2gpbs is the ONLY thing holding me back on this projector. Scratches every other itch I care about. I honestly couldn't come up with a trade off that is important to me with this projector if that part were stepped up.
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post #39 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 02:15 PM
 
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I'm mostly criticizing Epson because I was hoping to have an alternative to the new DLPs but with lower input lag and better contrast, while keeping frame interpolation and letting my watch my 3D Bluray collection. Apparently the 3D has very little ghosting on the 5040 and the ANSI is 330:1 which is very good, plus the on/off is 2800:1 which represents a decent upgrade from my w1070.

I'm really hoping 18 gbps HDMI 2.0 input ports on a 3D Ready 3LCD projector might mean 120hz at 1080p. That would be such good news to me, I would totally buy that. The big question is whether Epson can manage that this year. I hope CEDIA has some nice surprises for us.
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post #40 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Hawkmarket View Post
The 10.2gpbs is the ONLY thing holding me back on this projector. Scratches every other itch I care about. I honestly couldn't come up with a trade off that is important to me with this projector if that part were stepped up.
So, let's petition Epson for a solution, such as, a hardware update for a full throughput HDMI board installation. I've sent several pieces of audio gear in over the years for hardware upgrades. Most recently my rock around the clock Denon AVR 5308CI and now it's labeled as the 3D edition AVR 5308CIA. Amazing AVR, even without Atmos or DTS X Master capability. Build quality and presence is off the charts. Nothing comes close from main stream audio manufacturers to the quality of this 75 pound mega receiver. I paid big bucks for it and hated the thought of giving it up. I'm still not 100% sure it was the right thing for me to do but, alas, too late now.
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post #41 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 02:32 PM
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... My bet is this is the home version of the 4040. ...
You win. The specs are virtually identical except Epson generously gives the 4040 a tiny edge in a couple of specs to justify the 4040's Pro label and higher price over the 4000.

A key difference between the 5040 and 4040 is that the 5040 has both a dynamic iris and a manual iris while the 4040 omits the manual iris. Checking the 4000's user manual there is no mention of a manual iris. It's the manual iris in conjuncion with the dynamic iris that helps give the 5040 such a huge contrast specification advantage over the 4040 and 4000. In real world viewing no one changes the manual iris between bright and dark movie scenes.
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post #42 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 02:44 PM
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If these 10.2Gbps HDMI pj's do the job for all BD's and UHD BD's released to date except one (Billy Lynn 4K60) (10 bit, DCI-P3, 4:2:0, HDR10, 4K24/4K30- the data as-is from the disc, not up/cross converted by a UHD player to 12bt and/or 422/444), I call it a Win in my book.

At the 5040/4000 price level and the pace of change moving forward in the sub $3K pj market, the pj doesn't have to cover EVERY use case (Youtube, streaming/gaming sources)- yet

Buy it for what it does today, enjoy it for 12-24 months, and when a new model adds the use case(s) not currently addressed (4K60 HDR), sell and move on.
You get a new pj, bulb, features and someone else gets a great pj from you. The $2K-$3K pj space will be red hot with a lot of feature/improvement churn for the foreseeable future.
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post #43 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
I'm not sure where you see frame interpolation, These two features have nothing to do with FI, AFAIK:

Tri-stimulus Motion Technology — precision-aligned 3-chip engine delivers jaw-dropping action scenes with no rainbow effect
Epson® Image Enhancement Technology — Super-resolution and Detail Enhancement sharpen and refine images for lifelike smoothness and clarity


The "true" DLP competitor would probably be the Optoma UHD 60 for $ 1.999 (which unlike the UHD 65 does not feature FI) or the UHD 65 for $ 2.499.
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Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
It's there in the full specs.
1080 24p 2D and 3D
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Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post
I asked Epson when I talked to them about it last week what the differences between this and the 5040UB are, and it comes down to:

- 200 more lumens in the 5040UB
- A more advanced dynamic iris in the 5040UB for higher contrast ratios

But everything else, from lens memories to IP control and so on is in the new model. I'll have to see how the less advanced iris is, but that seems like a pretty good deal for saving $500 right now.

I also have the Optoma UHD here right now, so hopefully I can get in the Epson to compare the two.
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Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
That's not frame interpolation to reduce motion blur and judder.
US manuals for the hc4000/5040/4040/6040 mention FI 3 times only, check page 89-90 for the main menu, while the EU-UK tw7300/8300/9300 manual mentions FI 8 times, check page 36 (37 pdf) with explanation...

http://www.projectorpoint.co.uk/imag...00w-manual.pdf

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post #44 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 04:15 PM
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According to the 4000 FAQ
https://epson.com/faq/SPT_V11H715120~faq-0000530-hc4000

The HC4000 takes 4K24/10-12 bit/HDR10 at 4:2:2, but AFAIK, all UHD BD's released to date are encoded as 4:2:0:

http://www.projectorreviews.com/home...-now-complete/

Quote:
all Ultra HD Blu-ray players will be required to play UHD discs with the following characteristics:

Disc Capacity: 66 GB (dual layer) and 100 GB (3 layer)

Maximum Data Rate: greater than 100 Mbps (probably 128 Mbps max. rate for a 100 GB disc)

Video coding: HEVC (ITU-T H.265)

Video Bit Depth: 10-bits (per color)

Note: use of bit depths greater than 10-bits may be option or perhaps accommoded in a future update to the spec. through an extensibility provision.

UHD Video format: 2160p/24Hz up to 2160p/60Hz

Chroma Sub-Sampling Scheme: 4:2:0

Note: higher fidelity chroma sub-sampling schemes (i.e., 4:2:2, 4:4:4) may be accommoded in a future update to the spec. through an extensibility provision.

Color Gamut: Multiple color spaces (color gamuts) will be supported and delivered within a ITU Rec. 2020 transport format. Most likely Rec. 709 and DCI-P3 color spaces will specifically be identified and the player will be required to map from the color space used for the recording to the color space that can be supported by the connected UHD display.

High Dynamic Range (HDR): Is a feature that the Ultra HD Blu-ray players must support and is a option for use on Ultra HD Blu-ray discs. HDR can be implemented with one or two layers of information on the recording. The SMPTE sfor HDR (ST 2084 and ST 2086) is consider the first or basic data layer for HDR and will be a baseline requirement that all players must support. There will also be a option for a second layer of HDR support and players may optionally support the DolbyVision HDR or the Philip HDR extensions for this second layer. Individual movies released on Ultra HD Blu-ray discs may elect to support the HDR feature or not. If a disc is released that supports, for example, the baseline HDR plus DolbyVision HDR extensions, then this disc will still be compatible even with those players that only support the baseline HDR layer, in which case the DolbyVision extensions would simply be ignored.
Another error?
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post #45 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 04:57 PM
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pass
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post #46 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by finclk View Post
Looks the same as the 5040ub but priced $300 lesser at $2200. I think if one just bought the 5040ub. U would be pissed!
I just bought a 5040UB and I am not pissed at all. I will say that I was chatting with the projector people with their online support and I asked them about the 4000 and they said they don’t know about that model and blew me off, I was also interested in the UHD 60 and 65 and they made me do my own research. This is the second time I was turned off by them and they lost another sale.
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post #47 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 05:50 PM
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pass
Hard to make out, did you say Pass?
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post #48 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 06:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
You win. The specs are virtually identical except Epson generously gives the 4040 a tiny edge in a couple of specs to justify the 4040's Pro label and higher price over the 4000.

A key difference between the 5040 and 4040 is that the 5040 has both a dynamic iris and a manual iris while the 4040 omits the manual iris. Checking the 4000's user manual there is no mention of a manual iris. It's the manual iris in conjuncion with the dynamic iris that helps give the 5040 such a huge contrast specification advantage over the 4040 and 4000. In real world viewing no one changes the manual iris between bright and dark movie scenes.
Not only that, the 5040 (9300, on the left below) has literally double the native contrast of the 4040 (7300):



Do not buy this just to save a couple hundred clams over the 5040:

Comparison review.
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post #49 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 06:56 PM
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this just put "4K' and HDR on the map for me. first display i've seen in my budget that i would actually want. I still have another bulb to burn through on my x35, but i sure hope this has some competition by the time i do

i'm still a huge fan of Lcos, but if my choices are this for 2200 or Lcos with the same features for over 4000, the black levels need to be VERY different between the two.

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post #50 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
Not only that, the 5040 (9300, on the left below) has literally double the native contrast of the 4040 (7300):







Do not buy this just to save a couple hundred clams over the 5040:



Comparison review.


Unfortunatley it will still likely be much higher than what the Optoma UHD60/65 will be capable of. The best contrast projector in the sub $2k market is and will continue to be the Sony 45ES. Hey Sony, can we get a 4k e-shift model to replace the 45ES... at the same price?

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post #51 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 08:06 PM
 
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Or just release a 1080p HDR projector with 5k:1 native and WCG and a buncha lumens and 120hz that'd be great k thx
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post #52 of 217 Old 06-27-2017, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Unfortunatley it will still likely be much higher than what the Optoma UHD60/65 will be capable of. The best contrast projector in the sub $2k market is and will continue to be the Sony 45ES. Hey Sony, can we get a 4k e-shift model to replace the 45ES... at the same price?
Yup.

I think they are cannibalizing the 5040UB parts because they will have true 4K 3LCD with 18Gbps inputs soon.

Sony will probably have true 4K in the 2~3K region soon.

It's just a bad time to buy a low end 4K PJ now, but I'm glad some are. It pushes down the prices for those of us with patience.
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post #53 of 217 Old 06-27-2017, 08:17 AM
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I need a little help, having some trouble with research, its been a while (10 years since I looked hard at this stuff).

So I have HDMI 1.3 cables in the wall. 2 of them, 35 foot and 50 foot. From what I can tell, these cables are not going to work for this projectod that had HDMI 2.0. I have a Marantz AV8802A. I also have 2 Cat5e cables in the wall there.

Main issue is that I cant run cables in the wall. I could not install conduit when I built them so whatever goes in has to go in outside the wall to my front mount projector on the ceiling around 15 feet back. Im trying to not make it to ugly.

So if that is truly the case, then I need to buy a 2.0 HDMI cable that is ~35 foot long.

But I see this projector supports a new format I have never seen, HDMI over fiber. The Projector has a port for this. Can someone explain how I would use this connection to connect to my Marantz. I see 50 foot cables on Monoprice but do I need to have a transever also between the two or do they just plug in??? Its a bit confusing since I am reading things about needing a USB port for power (both sides have this) but I dont see a USB cable off the ends of the cable (which is why it seems like it would need some kind of booster (monoprice?)). So its it not even worth trying such a thing? Just get a 50 foot HDMI 2.0 cable? I would like to try the fiber cable if possible.

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post #54 of 217 Old 06-27-2017, 09:18 AM
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This looks awesome but waiting for Dolby Vision to be featured in a projector so I can effectively recreate the Dolby Cinema experience on 100+" screen.
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post #55 of 217 Old 06-27-2017, 09:27 AM
 
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This looks awesome but waiting for Dolby Vision to be featured in a projector so I can effectively recreate the Dolby Cinema experience on 100+" screen.
I'm still not entirely sure that 12-bit vs 10-bit is going to make a huge difference, it's more about the dynamic metadata.

And even there, on these projectors, they are analyzing the average + peak luma values per-frame regardless of using SDR or HDR10 /w static metadata (pre-set for the whole movie), in order to do dynamic dimming. And if you do dynamic dimming that must mean scaling the content to compensate, similar to what dynamic metadata does.

Dynamic metadata doesn't really need to change the mastering display's gamut every frame, only once per movie I think, so that leaves mostly the min / max / peak luminance which like I said, must be calculated by these projectors per-frame already, to dim the bulb (for both SDR and HDR10).

I'm really trying to understand what's in the metadata per frame that you can't just calculate on the fly by inspecting the values, which like I said is done already for SDR. My 500 dollar DLP does metadata extraction for SmartEco.
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post #56 of 217 Old 06-27-2017, 09:32 AM
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fwiw I'm happy with my JVC RS400 2016 model, not a gamer, it's my 4 year stopgap PJ.
AV science store has them at good deals, below $3k.
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post #57 of 217 Old 06-27-2017, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tleavit View Post
I need a little help, having some trouble with research, its been a while (10 years since I looked hard at this stuff).

So I have HDMI 1.3 cables in the wall. 2 of them, 35 foot and 50 foot. From what I can tell, these cables are not going to work for this projectod that had HDMI 2.0. I have a Marantz AV8802A. I also have 2 Cat5e cables in the wall there.

Main issue is that I cant run cables in the wall. I could not install conduit when I built them so whatever goes in has to go in outside the wall to my front mount projector on the ceiling around 15 feet back. Im trying to not make it to ugly.

So if that is truly the case, then I need to buy a 2.0 HDMI cable that is ~35 foot long.

But I see this projector supports a new format I have never seen, HDMI over fiber. The Projector has a port for this. Can someone explain how I would use this connection to connect to my Marantz. I see 50 foot cables on Monoprice but do I need to have a transever also between the two or do they just plug in??? Its a bit confusing since I am reading things about needing a USB port for power (both sides have this) but I dont see a USB cable off the ends of the cable (which is why it seems like it would need some kind of booster (monoprice?)). So its it not even worth trying such a thing? Just get a 50 foot HDMI 2.0 cable? I would like to try the fiber cable if possible.
There is no such thing as a HDMI 1.3 cable.

There are high-speed and standard speed HDMI cables, period. Your cables are likely standard speed, but that doesn't mean they won't work, it's just that they may be out of the specification to allow them to work properly. But, they may work just fine. If you are looking to get a new projector which supports UHD, then try the cables after you get the projector and if you have a proper UHD source hooked up to it like a Blu-ray player or computer with proper output. Some cables work, some do not.

Fiber cables will most likely work very well. Typically there is just a voltage rating on a HDMI connection that allows for fiber based HDMI cables to work properly.

You really should look and read the HDMI Q/A section of these forums for specific answers to your HDMI questions. Do not say the words "I have a HDMI 1.3 cable installed" - as it will get the same response I just gave you.

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
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post #58 of 217 Old 06-27-2017, 12:57 PM
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*NOTE: currently, the Epson 5040UB and UBE projectors are not compatible with gaming console HDR specifications. They are, however, compatible with Blu-ray HDR.

I really want to upgrade my 9 year old Panasonic AE 2000U with an HDR/4K projector, I eagerly awaited the 5040UB and this projector. But I'm primarily interested in gaming, I'd like HDR from my PS4 Pro. When I read the note above at projector people regarding the 5040UB I delayed the purchase. Is this projector also incapable of PS4 HDR?
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post #59 of 217 Old 06-27-2017, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dabagboy View Post
*NOTE: currently, the Epson 5040UB and UBE projectors are not compatible with gaming console HDR specifications. They are, however, compatible with Blu-ray HDR.

I really want to upgrade my 9 year old Panasonic AE 2000U with an HDR/4K projector, I eagerly awaited the 5040UB and this projector. But I'm primarily interested in gaming, I'd like HDR from my PS4 Pro. When I read the note above at projector people regarding the 5040UB I delayed the purchase. Is this projector also incapable of PS4 HDR?
Yes, I believe they both share the same limitations.
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post #60 of 217 Old 06-27-2017, 01:36 PM
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still need a shorter throw "budget" 4k projector.
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