Epson Home Cinema 4000 4Ke HDR Projector Debuts - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 12:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Epson Home Cinema 4000 4Ke HDR Projector Debuts

The Epson Home Cinema 4000 4Ke projector offers amazing bang for the buck, with HDR10, P3 color, and motorized lens for only $2200.

http://www.avsforum.com/epson-home-c...jector-debuts/
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post #2 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 12:26 AM
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Looks the same as the 5040ub but priced $300 lesser at $2200. I think if one just bought the 5040ub. U would be pissed!
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post #3 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 01:05 AM
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Epson Home Cinema 4000 4Ke HDR Projector Debuts

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Originally Posted by finclk View Post
Looks the same as the 5040ub but priced $300 lesser at $2200. I think if one just bought the 5040ub. U would be pissed!


Nah. My bet is this is the home version of the 4040. Meaning it has all the bells and whistles but look closely: no UB at the end of the model number. I bet contrast and black levels on this model skew closer to the 3100/3700 than the 5040/6040. If you just bought a 5040ub- especially at it's sale price- my guess is you're still plenty happy with your purchase.

But it's still a killer deal! Especially considering Epson has a habit of reducing prices on their projectors fairly aggressively. Feels like Epson is targeting the recently announced Optoma UHD60. It lacks the pixel count of the Optoma but makes up for it was a LOT more features. Interesting time in the projector market.

EDIT: I might be wrong-- when I clicked the link to the Epson product page it DOES mention ultrablack(tm) but doesn't make any mention of an iris. Could this be the 5040's panels without the trick Iris? I guess only time will tell. I also see no mention of 3D capability. That's a shame as this is the second high profile product launch this month that doesn't have 3d. I'm super curious to see a review on this.

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post #4 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 01:23 AM
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oh man how many things we forgot to analyze in your review (or maybe should we call it advertisment?)

- why you do not compare that Epson with one Optoma UHD65 that support in AMAZING way the frame interpolation while the Epson DO NOT HAVE IT?
- what about the well known problem with the maximum bandwidth input with the Epson? did they solve the problem or the HDMI inpust is still unable to manage up-to-date content (oh yes, you can always add external electronic to downgrade the color resolution... clever solution)
- what about the fact that with a dlp it is impossible to have problems like shading, becouse single panel instead of three? how many panels in the Epson?
- what about the ability of single chip dlp to resolve details and what are, in comparison, the performance of a typical common three chip product?
- is it really a seriuos point to talk about the rainbow effect when waching the Oppo logo (I can immagine full white on a full black backgroung... the worste possible condition for rainbow)... what abou rainbow watching "normal" contents?
- are we serious when talking about 2200 lumen and and WCG? at the same time? you mean that Epson is able to reach that gamut without using additional filter and loosing light? that would be an interesting news.. where can we read about that?

... ok... I could go on...

Epson is an honest product with an excellent customer support... that should be more then enough to promote it

p.s.: by the way... I'm one follower of your youtube channel... very interesting

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post #5 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 01:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lupoal View Post
oh man how many things you forgot to analyze in your review (or maybe should we call it advertisment?)
- why you do not compare that Epson with one Optoma UHD65 that support in AMAZING way the frame interpolation while the Epson DO NOT HAVE IT?
- what about the well known problem with the maximum bandwidth input with the Epson? did they solve the problem or the HDMI inpust is still unable to manage up-to-date content (oh yes, you can always add external electronic to downgrade the color resolution... clever solution)
- what about the fact that with a dlp it is impossible to have problems like shading, becouse single panel instead of three? how many panels in the Epson?
- what about the ability of single chip dlp to resolve details and what are, in comparison, the performance of a typical common three chip product?
- is it really a seriuos point to talk about the rainbow effect when waching the Oppo logo (I can immagine full white on a full black backgroung... the worste possible condition for rainbow)... what abou rainbow watching "normal" contents?
- are we serious when talking about 2200 lumen and and WCG? at the same time? you mean that Epson is able to reach that gamut without using additional filter and loosing light? that would be an interesting news.. where can we read about that?

... ok... I could go on...

Epson is an honest product with an excellent customer support... that should be more then enough to promote it


Dude... wtf?

He saw it at the show and made a post about it. It's just a first look. He made the comparison to the BenQ because that's what Epson presented for comparison. The BenQ 8050's issues with RBE are well known. This isn't a full review and it isn't an endorsement. It's a report of what he witnessed. And he DID mention that in SDR the BenQ did look better than the Epson just not 4times the price better.

Relax.

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post #6 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 01:55 AM
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This is their stop-gap for true 4K 3LCD in a year or two.
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post #7 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 02:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
...

Relax.
ok... ... ..
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post #8 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 04:17 AM
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3d and frame interpolation are listed in the full specs...
https://epson.com/For-Home/Projector...R/p/V11H715120
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post #9 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Car67 View Post
3d and frame interpolation are listed in the full specs...
https://epson.com/For-Home/Projector...R/p/V11H715120
I'm not sure where you see frame interpolation, These two features have nothing to do with FI, AFAIK:

Tri-stimulus Motion Technology — precision-aligned 3-chip engine delivers jaw-dropping action scenes with no rainbow effect
Epson® Image Enhancement Technology — Super-resolution and Detail Enhancement sharpen and refine images for lifelike smoothness and clarity


The "true" DLP competitor would probably be the Optoma UHD 60 for $ 1.999 (which unlike the UHD 65 does not feature FI) or the UHD 65 for $ 2.499.
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post #10 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 05:30 AM
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if, as it could be, the electronic inside (processor) will be the same as in the proviuos model then I'm afraid the FI will not be there because of, maybe, not enough computing power to manage both FI and 4Ke at the same time

I'm wondering if somebodies is also thinking about the ANSI contrast instead of the most common, and IMHO meaningless, on-off contrast (most of the time crazy numbers good only for marketing purpose) ... if I remember right the DLP technolgy should guarantee much better ANSI contrast (that is not exactly what we see during "normal" content view but give us much better idea about how it could be in reality) that should be a very important factor for HDR contents

I agree... let's have a comparison with UHD 65 ... I remeber very well a comparison side by side with Benq W11000 against Sony 550 and the real surprise seeing a projector 50% cheaper doing better of the most pricey and famous one ... and it was DLP against the "marvelous" Lcos
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post #11 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
I'm not sure where you see frame interpolation, These two features have nothing to do with FI, AFAIK:

Tri-stimulus Motion Technology — precision-aligned 3-chip engine delivers jaw-dropping action scenes with no rainbow effect
Epson® Image Enhancement Technology — Super-resolution and Detail Enhancement sharpen and refine images for lifelike smoothness and clarity


The "true" DLP competitor would probably be the Optoma UHD 60 for $ 1.999 (which unlike the UHD 65 does not feature FI) or the UHD 65 for $ 2.499.
It's there in the full specs.
1080 24p 2D and 3D
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post #12 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 06:14 AM
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I asked Epson when I talked to them about it last week what the differences between this and the 5040UB are, and it comes down to:

- 200 more lumens in the 5040UB
- A more advanced dynamic iris in the 5040UB for higher contrast ratios

But everything else, from lens memories to IP control and so on is in the new model. I'll have to see how the less advanced iris is, but that seems like a pretty good deal for saving $500 right now.

I also have the Optoma UHD here right now, so hopefully I can get in the Epson to compare the two.
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post #13 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 07:14 AM
 
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Full specs seem to imply 4K60 is only in 420, meaning 8-bit, meaning no HDR10 at 4K60, meaning no 18 gbps input ports. It seems Epson is either not listening to people who want true HDMI 2.0a inputs or they just don't care. Otherwise this could be a winner, given all the features and perhaps superior contrast performance compared to the DLPs. Razor sharp input is one thing, but not at the expense of contrast.

Terrific to see projectors at this price supporting all those features and 100% P3 gamut. Now all they need to do is add 18 gbps input ports and make sure the input lag is better than the UHD60 or at least the 65 and they could have a winner for gaming on their hands. I'm fine with inputting 1080p native only for windows desktop to get 1:1 input to output mapping.

Is there a link to a manual? There's some chance that a 3D Ready Epson with true 18 gbps HDMI 2 could support 1080p120, even potentially in HDR10. And that to me would be much better than 4K60 for HDR gaming. Not to mention 3D + HDR10 would be pretty cool too. If there's 2D to 3D conversion I wonder if that works with HDR content.
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post #14 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 07:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lupoal View Post
- what about the well known problem with the maximum bandwidth input with the Epson?
Looks like they're advertising 4K60 in 420 only (look at the website under full specs). That means no HDR at 4K60, means no HDR gaming at 4K. Doesn't matter that much, because HDR is really the important thing (lumens + native on/off contrast). But true 18 gbps input ports would open up other options like 1080p at 120hz in HDR10 mode. And THAT's exciting for gamers. (at least myself). Of course I'd definitely try 4K60 HDR10 too but I don't think the extra processing power for 4K is worth it given that this is really just a 1080p projector. 120hz would indeed represent a big boost in sharpness and clarity and smoothness (we are much closer to the spatial limits of resolution than temporal with current display tech, so 120hz is a much better feature to have than 4K, even razor-sharp 4K like on DLPs IMO).

As soon as you have basically any motion, all those razor sharp details are smeared away due to the low temporal sampling rate. (persistence based motion blur which is added by your mind, not the display itself). To even get full use out of a 1080p display you'd need like 1000 fps or so. Check out blurbusters.com


Quote:
Originally Posted by lupoal View Post
- are we serious when talking about 2200 lumen and and WCG? at the same time? you mean that Epson is able to reach that gamut without using additional filter and loosing light? that would be an interesting news.. where can we read about that?
All these Epson projectors use a Cinema filter in the light path, which is activated or removed electronically using gears, a motor, and a sliding mechanism, and have for the past five years or so. I bought one for my w1070 DLP, and year it looks great but it is quite a bit dimmer.

I read that for the 5040, the measured lumens are basically cut in half with the filter active. So, no, probably not 2200 lumens in WCG mode. Maybe even less than 1000 with calibration. We'll see!

The good thing about the Epsons is they have awesome input lag, at least the 5040 and 6050 models, with 28ms! That's at 1080p60 so who knows at 4K60. Also not sure about 4K upscaling / e-shift enabled.
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post #15 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 07:53 AM
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It's there in the full specs.
1080 24p 2D and 3D

That's not frame interpolation to reduce motion blur and judder.
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I have basically given up on seeing a true UHD HDR projector for several years to replace my 10 year old Panasonic AE10000 (which has 10K+ hours on it and still amazingly looks great to me) at a decent price.

I think Im gonna have to jump to this guy for now and hope to get something better in ~5 years.
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post #17 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 08:30 AM
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Has anyone seen an estimated release date for this unit?

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post #18 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 08:32 AM
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This is almost exactly what I wanted, a 4k capable 1080p wcg hdr projector, I don't think that true 4k is that important, not at the distance I sit. I look forward to some real reviews. Maybe this is projector #5?
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post #19 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 09:03 AM
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Epson Home Cinema 4000 4Ke HDR Projector Debuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post
I asked Epson when I talked to them about it last week what the differences between this and the 5040UB are, and it comes down to:



- 200 more lumens in the 5040UB

- A more advanced dynamic iris in the 5040UB for higher contrast ratios



But everything else, from lens memories to IP control and so on is in the new model. I'll have to see how the less advanced iris is, but that seems like a pretty good deal for saving $500 right now.



I also have the Optoma UHD here right now, so hopefully I can get in the Epson to compare the two.


Thanks for that.

I'm curious to see your review. When looking at the specs side by side with the Epson 4040 they look nearly identical. But the 4040 lists a 160,000:1 contrast ratio vs the 4000 140,000:1 (I know contrast ratios are bunk but they can often be a good indication of where a unit falls in a manufacturers lineup). The more and more I look at this thing the more and more it looks like a white 4040 without the spare bulb and the extra year warranty. Art over at http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...jector-review/ did a review of the Epson 4040 and really liked it although he was quick to point out that the contrast of this unit didn't match up to the 'ultrablack' 5040/6040 due to the use of lower contrast LCD panels. His take:
"The Pro Cinema 4040 has new 3LCD panels. These new panels are than those in all less expensive Epson projectors (except the HC3900 which we haven’t tested yet, but which does not support 4K), but they do not rival the higher native contrast panels that go into the Epson UB projectors. The contrast claim says it all: Epson UBs: 1,000,000:1 contrast. The PC4040: 160,000:1 | What that means is that the PC4040 just can’t begin to match the black level performance of the 5040UB and 6040UB. But it rivals those projectors at everything else – except coming in at 2300 lumens, which is only 8% less bright than the UBs (and plenty bright in its own right)."

In either case it's a welcome new product at a cost competitive price. I guess for the $300 between this and the sale price 5040 I'd just go with the 5040 but if the price comes down on this unit I think it will be very competitive. With better features than an Optoma UHD60 and the 4k enhancement that the Sony 45ES lacks this should slot in nicely.

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post #20 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 09:17 AM
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I do wonder if they made tweaks in this new unit or it's just marketing.

For example, on the 4000 page it specifically states, "Offers 100% coverage of the DCI-P3 color space, the digital cinema standard". It doesn't state this on the 5040 page and I recall seeing some cal reports where the coverage was less than 100% even with the filter.

There is also a blurb on the 4000 page about low delta E and color accuracy - although that was generally the case especially with rec 709 with the 5040.
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post #22 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tleavit View Post
Has anyone seen an estimated release date for this unit?
Sooner than you expect, but longer than you think.
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Sooner than you expect, but longer than you think.
I just bought one on Amazon! I'll have it Wed!

Cant wait, been using my Panny AE10000 for 10 good years, it will be a great change!!!
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post #24 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by tleavit View Post
I just bought one on Amazon! I'll have it Wed!

Cant wait, been using my Panny AE10000 for 10 good years, it will be a great change!!!
Yes, the long "dry spell"/"dark ages" for sub $3K projectors appears to be finally ending.

New projector models in the sub $3K market will be coming fast and furious for the next several years - fun times like the ~2000-2010 time frame for 720p and the first affordable 1080p's.

Beyond the 4K pixel count, just getting 10-12 bit processing/WCG, DCI-P3 /BT2020<>BT709, plus conversions/HDR flavors (HDR10/10+/DV/HLG/?)/HDR<>SDR conversions/tone mapping/HDR brightness levels (Laser/led/?)/HDMI 18Gbps/ good 3D/ low lag all dead nuts will take many release cycles- fun times to watch 'em fight it out!

From 1999-2011 I upgraded projectors every 2-2.5yrs, with significant picture/feature improvements at lower cost every time.

Still using the 8350 I bought 10/2011, still wowing meet visitors.

Sit back and enjoy the ride, scooping up all the fine projector casualties with competition-reduced pricing/refurbs/B-stocks and used selling in the coming years.

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I am looking to upgrade my loaned out Optoma HD65 to something a lot better and seems like this is a good time for the e-shift 4K's. I have been looking at the UHD60 and now that the HC4000 is coming out from Epson I have a choice to make. I want to go from a fixed 120" diagonal 16:9 to a 163" to maybe 177" diagonal 2.35:1 AT screen and be able to go between both with a push of a button. The HC4000 just went into the lead for me with the powered zoom now. My room is light controlled so 2200 lumens should be just fine for what I want out of it.

The hard part for me will be convincing SWMBO that it would be a good buy. I look forward to reading other reviews on the HC4000.

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post #26 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Has anyone seen an estimated release date for this unit?
According to Epson, it's available as of today.
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post #27 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 10:45 AM
 
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Sadly, we have confirmation of 10 gbps HDMI, like the 5040 / 6040s.

No HDR at 4K60.
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post #28 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
Sadly, we have confirmation of 10 gbps HDMI, like the 5040 / 6040s.

No HDR at 4K60.
Have any UHD BD's been released at 60fps?

I assume the 4K60 issue is limited to PC/gamers?
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post #29 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
According to Epson, it's available as of today.
...like I said, sooner than we expected!
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post #30 of 217 Old 06-26-2017, 11:11 AM
 
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There's one UHD Bluray at 4K60, Billy Lynn, so far, and even though it's not in HDR (I believe), all UHD Blurays are encoded in 10-bit minimum, meaning you will get 8-bit instead on this projector. This will result in more banding, for sure.

There will be more such content eventually.

4K60 being limited to 8-bit 4:2:0 is very disappointing.

No HDR10 at 4K60 means no Netflix / Amazon streaming from your PC, or laptop, or any source, unless you switch the refresh rate to 24p. Of course if the source is 24p that's fine, but for mouse or finger scrolling it's brutal. 24p is awful for animation, it makes me wonder why it's tolerated in movies but that's another discussion.

I applaud Epson for keeping 3D in there, and FI at this price, but this 10 gbps isn't going to cut if in 2017.
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