ACER M550 : 4K DLP projector for less than 2000€ with frame interpolation SDR and 4K - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 53 Old 09-18-2017, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by rayan1910 View Post
But isn't it with the RGBRYC colour wheel that colour brightness/richness is way less than a RGBRGB colour wheel?

Apparently it's a bit more complicated as I'm currently learning from a technical discussion at the German Hi-Fi-Forum. In combination with "Brilliant Color" the RGBRYC color wheel with a white segment provides bigger brightness at the expense of color accuracy which makes colors look "washed out". Supposedly it's not possible to get colors according to Rec 709 with that kind of color wheel, but @nolimithardware seems to have accomplished that. He was speculating that it is perhaps because the color wheel of the M550 doesn't feature that particular white segment.

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post #32 of 53 Old 09-18-2017, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
Apparently it's a bit more complicated as I'm currently learning from a technical discussion at the German Hi-Fi-Forum. In combination with "Brilliant Color" the RGBRYC color wheel with a white segment provides bigger brightness at the expense of color accuracy which makes colors look "washed out". Supposedly it's not possible to get colors according to Rec 709 with that kind of color wheel, but @nolimithardware seems to have accomplished that. He was speculating that it is perhaps because the color wheel of the M550 doesn't feature that particular white segment.
Makes sense, still so confused whether to go for the UHD65 or the M550 since price isn't a factor.
Brightness and Contrast seem better on the Acer but color brightness is what I'm worries about.
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post #33 of 53 Old 09-18-2017, 08:57 AM
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Here is an older AVS thread addressing DLP color wheels: RGB, RGBRGB, RGBW, RGBCMY, RGBCWY My Head might explode!


Members at the German HiFi-Forum also said that RGBC_Y makes colors too bright. Still doesn't explain the (positive) observations on the M550 by owners in France and Germany.
Maybe Acer model designation "H" stands for RGBCWY, "M" for RGBCMY and "V" for RGBRGB color wheel.

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post #34 of 53 Old 09-19-2017, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by rayan1910 View Post
Makes sense, still so confused whether to go for the UHD65 or the M550 since price isn't a factor.
Brightness and Contrast seem better on the Acer but color brightness is what I'm worries about.

We discussed this over at the German HiFi Forum. Bottom line seems to be:


With an RGBRGB color wheel you'll get the most accurate colors (slightly exceeding Rec 709) but with less brightness (so projection distance and ultimate screen size need to be considered, IIRC the maximum recommended screen width for the UHD 65 was around 8-9 feet).


With an RGBCMY color wheel (which seems to be the case with the M550) you stay within the limits of Rec 709, colors are a bit brighter and so is brightness in general. It's a compromise between ultimate color fidelity and brightness.


The no-go remains a color wheel with a white "W" segment as this will further increase brightness but not only at the expense of accurate colors but also at the expense of contrast and black level reproduction which many of us consider important for home theater applications.


Last but not least, it's the overall look of the projected image that should matter, IMHO. A friend of mine (JVC owner) watched the UHD 65 and felt the overall image to look somewhat synthetic and digital. I've not yet heard this complaint from owners of the M550, so I'd still like to hear their comments regarding that particular issue.

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post #35 of 53 Old 09-19-2017, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post

Last but not least, it's the overall look of the projected image that should matter, IMHO. A friend of mine (JVC owner) watched the UHD 65 and felt the overall image to look somewhat synthetic and digital. I've not yet heard this complaint from owners of the M550, so I'd still like to hear their comments regarding that particular issue.
This may simply be the 1-chip vs. 3-chip difference. Even though my JVC RS1 had much better optics than my Benq, it was noticeably softer. Some of my friends associated that softness with "film-like". I attributed the softness to the lack of perfect convergence of the three chips.

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post #36 of 53 Old 09-19-2017, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by rayan1910 View Post
Makes sense, still so confused whether to go for the UHD65 or the M550 since price isn't a factor.
Brightness and Contrast seem better on the Acer but color brightness is what I'm worries about.

We discussed this over at the German HiFi Forum.


Last but not least, it's the overall look of the projected image that should matter, IMHO. A friend of mine (JVC owner) watched the UHD 65 and felt the overall image to look somewhat synthetic and digital. I've not yet heard this complaint from owners of the M550, so I'd still like to hear their comments regarding that particular issue.
Well to be honest, I really love the cartoony saturated colours over the natural look of the JVC. Have been trying to read those forums but some times google translate doesn't do the best job.

Thanks heaps for the info!
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post #37 of 53 Old 09-19-2017, 09:44 AM
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I hope they bring this projector to the US. I want to buy a 4K projector this year/early next year but don't want to spend $5K+ on a projector right now as I feel HDR and 4K projectors will really evolve in the next 3 years. Would rather spend $2K or less and then upgrade in 2-3 years.

I was leaning towards a 75" TV, but this could push me back into a projector.
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post #38 of 53 Old 09-19-2017, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post
I hope they bring this projector to the US. I want to buy a 4K projector this year/early next year but don't want to spend $5K+ on a projector right now as I feel HDR and 4K projectors will really evolve in the next 3 years. Would rather spend $2K or less and then upgrade in 2-3 years.

I was leaning towards a 75" TV, but this could push me back into a projector.
I agree. This projector has renewed my interest in getting a stop gap 4K solution. Really looking forward to hearing more user reviews but excited to hear it may pull the best features from the optomas at a cheaper price. As a side note, can someone step me through how to translate Kraine's review? Thanks
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post #39 of 53 Old 09-19-2017, 01:37 PM
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You guys in the US should check out the Vivitek HK2299. It s resell price is 2999USD but I have seen it for 2300USD at projectorpeople (i think). From people which have seen it, they say it had the best image so far out of these new 4k projectors and it will be available in November.

For Kraines post:
The M550 performs better in contrast/brightness than H7850, the Optoma UHD60 and UHD65. Not sure about the V7850, but most likely as well. Think UHD65 has better colors but not too sure, I m not native french speaking...
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post #40 of 53 Old 09-21-2017, 05:02 PM
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You guys in the US should check out the Vivitek HK2299. It s resell price is 2999USD but I have seen it for 2300USD at projectorpeople (i think). From people which have seen it, they say it had the best image so far out of these new 4k projectors and it will be available in November.

For Kraines post:
The M550 performs better in contrast/brightness than H7850, the Optoma UHD60 and UHD65. Not sure about the V7850, but most likely as well. Think UHD65 has better colors but not too sure, I m not native french speaking...
Thanks I am going to keep my eyes open for reviews of the Vivitek. The Acer, based on Kraines review, still might be the front runner based on contrast and lumen output. The input lag is a problem with all these DLP's though.. ugh.. TV might be in my future.
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post #41 of 53 Old 09-21-2017, 11:42 PM
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This is also my current frontrunner, but still not available in Sweden, and I'll need more info on the 50hz issue. If Acer plan to fix it as Optoma seeminlgy are.
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post #42 of 53 Old 09-22-2017, 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
We discussed this over at the German HiFi Forum. Bottom line seems to be:


With an RGBRGB color wheel you'll get the most accurate colors (slightly exceeding Rec 709) but with less brightness (so projection distance and ultimate screen size need to be considered, IIRC the maximum recommended screen width for the UHD 65 was around 8-9 feet).


With an RGBCMY color wheel (which seems to be the case with the M550) you stay within the limits of Rec 709, colors are a bit brighter and so is brightness in general. It's a compromise between ultimate color fidelity and brightness.


The no-go remains a color wheel with a white "W" segment as this will further increase brightness but not only at the expense of accurate colors but also at the expense of contrast and black level reproduction which many of us consider important for home theater applications.


Last but not least, it's the overall look of the projected image that should matter, IMHO. A friend of mine (JVC owner) watched the UHD 65 and felt the overall image to look somewhat synthetic and digital. I've not yet heard this complaint from owners of the M550, so I'd still like to hear their comments regarding that particular issue.
I would not opt for a RGBCMY colorwheel unless it is video optimized in the size of the segments, has a brilliant color video profile and has the ability to calibrate by inputting the user measured native xyY of each segment including the CMY produce. That is something the projector is unlikely to have but in my opinion is crucial. With a RGBCMY wheel it is too easy to end up with a image robbed of contrast and accurate color by being tinted slightly yellow or cyan. I would also want user ability to fine tune colorwheel timing as a small timing error with a RGBCMY wheel can result in image artefact problems.

I have a old Projectiondesign F30 vizsim with a video optimized full brilliant color implementation with RGBCMY colorwheel. On my projector the brilliant color computer mode with native white point and color gives full lumen output and contrast. Brilliant color video mode reduces lumen output by about a third. D65 reduces it by about another tenth. So in video mode with D65 it is only about 60% of maximum lumen and contrast. Which for lumen output is about what it would get in the first place with a RGB colorwheel. Having said that I do prefer it to a RGB colorwheel. The color is better, more lifelike and vivid giving the image more color contrast.

Modern projectors have unishape or vidi lamp dimming peaking synced to the colorwheel segments so should have far less of a loss than my old projector. But, its still going to be nowhere near the manufactures claimed max figures. Yellow and cyan segments enable lumen output to be greatly boosted.

Last edited by dovercat; 09-22-2017 at 05:05 AM.
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post #43 of 53 Old 09-22-2017, 09:59 AM
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With a RGBCMY wheel it is too easy to end up with a image robbed of contrast and accurate color by being tinted slightly yellow or cyan.
I saw what you mean the day before yesterday. Had the opportunity to compare the Acer M550 to the Aver V9800. The M550's image showed the effects you described, color fidelity was much better with the V9800 (which has an RGBRGB color wheel IIRC).

Contrast and black level reproduction was equally mediore, IMHO, add to this that the HD sports program (50Hz) that looked normal during scenes from the football field (however the FI is obviously inactive for 50Hz content) showed terrible judder during another scene showing players disembarking from a bus (if this is the 50Hz bug, they better fix that ASAP!).

The electronic store only had the Blu-ray of Star Wars VII (and other BD titles) at its disposal, so I couldn't evaluate UHD performance.

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post #44 of 53 Old 09-22-2017, 10:15 AM
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Was enviroment good enough to judge blacks levels , because not always happen in that kind of shops.

I see your comments in german forum

I know dlps not strongs in that point.


Saludos

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post #45 of 53 Old 09-22-2017, 01:12 PM
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Was enviroment good enough to judge blacks levels , because not always happen in that kind of shops.
Hola, it was a dedicated home theater room with all the lights and the other projectors switched off at my request. Projection screen of the M550 was right in front of me (next to a white wall on the left) while on the far right end of the room the V9800 projected its image to the wall opposite of the white one. I thought it was actually a rather good environment but the black letterbox bars of Star Wars VII were still too bright for my taste.

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post #46 of 53 Old 09-22-2017, 09:35 PM
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Hola, it was a dedicated home theater room with all the lights and the other projectors switched off at my request. Projection screen of the M550 was right in front of me (next to a white wall on the left) while on the far right end of the room the V9800 projected its image to the wall opposite of the white one. I thought it was actually a rather good environment but the black letterbox bars of Star Wars VII were still too bright for my taste.
Not much of a "dedicated home theater room" if it had a white wall raising the ambient light level.

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post #47 of 53 Old 09-23-2017, 01:44 AM
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Not much of a "dedicated home theater room" if it had a white wall raising the ambient light level.
The only light sources remaining (overheads were switched off, too, of course) were the projections of the M550 and the V9800. And the black bars on the right image side (away from the white left wall and other ambient light) were still brighter than the white screen areas that did not reflect any light (i.e. the projection image didn't fill the entire screen).

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post #48 of 53 Old 10-05-2017, 12:41 PM
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If I'm interpreting the manuals from Acer correctly I believe the M550 = H7850 and the V550 = V7850 with the only differences being the name.
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post #49 of 53 Old 10-10-2017, 12:03 PM
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Does it have the vertical stretch in 4K needed for anamorphic lens ? What about vertical digital image shift for using zoom method of CIH ?

What is missing compared the the H78 and V78 models that makes the M550 less expensive ?
Well, to answer two of my own CIH questions now that the manual is downloadable:

Yes, it does have vertical stretch for use with anamorphic lens.

No, it does not have vertical digital image shift for zoom method CIH. The vertical lens shift is enough to pull the black bar above the screen, but that would wash the wall above the screen so it had better be a dark colored and light absorbing material. And you would need enough ceiling height to get the lens a full 13% above the top of a scope screen.

Still no idea what features make the V7850 more expensive than this M550/H7850. RGBRGB color wheel yielding lower lumens and supposed higher contrast ratio is all I have found.

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post #50 of 53 Old 10-11-2017, 12:13 PM
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After spending a few days with the Sony VPL-VW360ES, looks like Kraine feels this Acer is better in 4K.
"Après quelques jours en compagnie du Sony vpl-vw360es et de l’Acer M550, je dois dire que le meilleur effet 4k et 4k HDR est rendu par le petit DLP à 1999€."
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post #51 of 53 Old 10-11-2017, 12:47 PM
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After spending a few days with the Sony VPL-VW360ES, looks like Kraine feels this Acer is better in 4K.
"Après quelques jours en compagnie du Sony vpl-vw360es et de l’Acer M550, je dois dire que le meilleur effet 4k et 4k HDR est rendu par le petit DLP à 1999€."
That sounds promising considering the H7850 is a much cheaper projector. I'm hoping Acer will ship my V7850 this week; they're really taking their time on shipping these.
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post #52 of 53 Old 10-11-2017, 12:55 PM
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The ACER M550 review is now online :

http://www.projection-homecinema.fr/...-dlp-4k-1999e/

For me the best choice of actual 4K DLP projector under 4000$ and better than the Optoma UHD65 for 1500$ less.
You mean 1500 euros less. $1500 less than the Optoma UHD65 would be quite impressive, putting it at $999 in the US
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post #53 of 53 Old 10-11-2017, 10:04 PM
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You mean 1500 euros less. $1500 less than the Optoma UHD65 would be quite impressive, putting it at $999 in the US
I believe he means, literally, $1500 less than $4000 = $2500 rather than $1500 less than the UHD65.

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