TI Demos New Pixel-Shifting DLP Chip - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 17 Old 09-11-2017, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
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TI Demos New Pixel-Shifting DLP Chip

Anybody have any additional information on this? Why would they be doing a 1080P pixel-shifter?

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...truments-chips

Edit: forgot the link.

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post #2 of 17 Old 09-11-2017, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Buddylee123 View Post
Anybody have any additional information on this? Why would they be doing a 1080P pixel-shifter?

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...truments-chips

Edit: forgot the link.
To bring the price down under $1000 for an pixelshifting unit much more rapidly, and enable very small footprint pixelshifting projectors.
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post #3 of 17 Old 09-11-2017, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Buddylee123 View Post
Anybody have any additional information on this? Why would they be doing a 1080P pixel-shifter?

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...truments-chips

Edit: forgot the link.
It is a smaller chip, which means smaller optics, which means less expensive. It is set to flash four times per frame instead of the larger chip's two times per frame to achieve 8 million pixels on screen, which means it is either faster or it cannot achieve the same color depth as the larger chip, right ? And with just the same two tilt positions shown in the diagram, there is no explanation of what is doing the pixel shifting. Is there a separate mirror plate or lens that vibrates to move the 1080P chip image both horizontally and vertically ? It also shows just 10d tilt for mm on/off positions, which I thought resulted in lower contrast. Doesn't the DarkChip3 use a 12d or 17d tilt ?
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post #4 of 17 Old 09-11-2017, 10:55 PM
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Are people going to call a 1080p native projector that flashes 4 times (with all 4 flashes overlapping) "4K" with no qualifier?

People should keep in mind that putting up 8 million pixels with overlap does not mean that you've done the 8 million pixels in the 4K source. They can be different pixels because the overlap results in a different image than the source image (in most cases).

No overlap would be a completely different beast, but TI won't do that because having less than 25% fill ratio for every flash would kill both white level and on/off CR. So, they fill the whole screen, then flash again filling the whole screen, with overlap.

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post #5 of 17 Old 09-12-2017, 05:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dreamer View Post
It is a smaller chip, which means smaller optics, which means less expensive. It is set to flash four times per frame instead of the larger chip's two times per frame to achieve 8 million pixels on screen, which means it is either faster or it cannot achieve the same color depth as the larger chip, right ? And with just the same two tilt positions shown in the diagram, there is no explanation of what is doing the pixel shifting. Is there a separate mirror plate or lens that vibrates to move the 1080P chip image both horizontally and vertically ? It also shows just 10d tilt for mm on/off positions, which I thought resulted in lower contrast. Doesn't the DarkChip3 use a 12d or 17d tilt ?


I not up to date on DLP. I was hoping that this was an advancement that would result in a better contrast ratio but that seems to be the opposite of what's happening


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post #6 of 17 Old 09-12-2017, 09:29 AM
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Isn't TI's 0.47" DMD primarily used in pico projectors that mostly come with LED light source? If so this might be a nice added feature for that class of projector depending on how much cost it adds over the standard 0.47" chip.
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post #7 of 17 Old 09-12-2017, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Buddylee123 View Post
I not up to date on DLP. I was hoping that this was an advancement that would result in a better contrast ratio but that seems to be the opposite of what's happening


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There is a possibility in a year or two that we may see a native 4k 0.95" DMD, but the contrast ratio of the DMD itself will likely be similar to the 0.67" XPR DMD as density is same.

It doesn't appear after darkchip3/4 that there is much left in optimizing dmd for contrast. Instead the lightpath needs to be optimized for contrast using fixed iris or multiple DMDs in series. The former is far more likely to happen at a reasonable price than the latter, and 2018 laser DLPs should have the spare lumens to accommodate more aggressive contrast optimizations.
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post #8 of 17 Old 09-12-2017, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
There is a possibility in a year or two that we may see a native 4k 0.95" DMD, but the contrast ratio of the DMD itself will likely be similar to the 0.67" XPR DMD as density is same.

It doesn't appear after darkchip3/4 that there is much left in optimizing dmd for contrast. Instead the lightpath needs to be optimized for contrast using fixed iris or multiple DMDs in series. The former is far more likely to happen at a reasonable price than the latter, and 2018 laser DLPs should have the spare lumens to accommodate more aggressive contrast optimizations.
I spoke to one of the TI engineers behind this tech at a work lunch and learn. I asked about the lag in contrast. His answer was that DLP had better ANSI contrast. I don't think they are worried about black levels... for whatever reason. It isn't their focus at all.
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post #9 of 17 Old 09-12-2017, 06:22 PM
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It doesn't appear after darkchip3/4 that there is much left in optimizing dmd for contrast. Instead the lightpath needs to be optimized for contrast using fixed iris or multiple DMDs in series. The former is far more likely to happen at a reasonable price than the latter, and 2018 laser DLPs should have the spare lumens to accommodate more aggressive contrast optimizations.
I don't see that. A second DMD chip could be driven in parallel with the first, with no additional processing required. The second DMD chip itself shouldn't add more than $100 to the manufacturing cost. Simply put it in the light path in place of the mirror that bounces the colored light onto the main DMD. It would cost 1/3rd of the lumens, but hugely improve contrast. A good question for TI would be why their micromirrors are only 67% reflective. They could greatly improve contrast with a single chip if the reflectance could be improved to 90% as a true FS mirror would be.
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post #10 of 17 Old 09-13-2017, 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Buddylee123 View Post
I was hoping that this was an advancement that would result in a better contrast ratio but that seems to be the opposite of what's happening

Same here, Texas Instruments appears to be moving 'south' with its DLP technology (and south of Dallas lies Houston...).

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post #11 of 17 Old 09-13-2017, 04:35 AM
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I don't see that. A second DMD chip could be driven in parallel with the first, with no additional processing required. The second DMD chip itself shouldn't add more than $100 to the manufacturing cost. Simply put it in the light path in place of the mirror that bounces the colored light onto the main DMD. It would cost 1/3rd of the lumens, but hugely improve contrast. A good question for TI would be why their micromirrors are only 67% reflective. They could greatly improve contrast with a single chip if the reflectance could be improved to 90% as a true FS mirror would be.
There is more to the cost of DMD implementation than manufacturing costs.

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post #12 of 17 Old 09-13-2017, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Same here, Texas Instruments appears to be moving 'south' with its DLP technology (and south of Dallas lies Houston...).
This is disappointing to hear. My first projector was an Infocus 4805 and I loved the picture. I wish they would push the technology forward.
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post #13 of 17 Old 09-13-2017, 09:59 PM
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There is more to the cost of DMD implementation than manufacturing costs.
Like feeding Dolby's greed and keeping people on infinite upgrade paths.
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post #14 of 17 Old 09-14-2017, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by joepaiii View Post
I spoke to one of the TI engineers behind this tech at a work lunch and learn. I asked about the lag in contrast. His answer was that DLP had better ANSI contrast. I don't think they are worried about black levels... for whatever reason. It isn't their focus at all.
Yep, they don't seem to care about the black floor all that much. Unfortunately, there has been a lot of misinformation in the industry for years, with people giving ANSI CR more credit than it deserves and on/off CR much less credit, usually based on poor understanding of the physics and things like gamma. Although much of the industry over the last few years has started to understand that native on/off CR matters a lot and people can see far beyond levels that "experts" claimed humans couldn't. I think JVC and the OLED market are largely responsible for people seeing that some of us were right when we said that when manufacturers made the blacks a lot better, people would be able to see improvement, even as "experts" continued to claim they wouldn't.

I saw one of the new 2.k+eShift BenQ DLPs (what TI calls 4k), which had ANSI CR of around 600:1 I believe, with on/off CR of less than 1k:1. Blacks on real material were horrendous. Worse than my DLP from over 10 years ago. That ANSI CR is high, but still didn't save the images overall.

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post #15 of 17 Old 09-15-2017, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by joepaiii View Post
I spoke to one of the TI engineers behind this tech at a work lunch and learn. I asked about the lag in contrast. His answer was that DLP had better ANSI contrast. I don't think they are worried about black levels... for whatever reason. It isn't their focus at all.


I don't necessarily blame them for this. The truth is, high dollar / high contrast projectors are a niche market. Most consumers don't care about black levels-- if they did then LCD wouldn't have trounced plasma for years. DLP is plenty good enough for most mixed rooms or casual applications. You really have to get into dedicated spaces and theaters to start seeing the advantages that high contrast LCD and LCoS projectors have to offer. That's not where the mainstream audience is. Most people aren't going to paint their ceiling black or line their walls with velvet.

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post #16 of 17 Old 09-15-2017, 12:36 PM
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I don't necessarily blame them for this. The truth is, high dollar / high contrast projectors are a niche market. Most consumers don't care about black levels-- if they did then LCD wouldn't have trounced plasma for years. DLP is plenty good enough for most mixed rooms or casual applications. You really have to get into dedicated spaces and theaters to start seeing the advantages that high contrast LCD and LCoS projectors have to offer. That's not where the mainstream audience is. Most people aren't going to paint their ceiling black or line their walls with velvet.
Also keep in mind ultra high end home theater and pro use when you get into the massive screens and/or ambient light the brightness of DLP is needed. 3000 lumens ain't gonna cut it for a massive screen, especially if AT or ambient light.

So the market DLP is missing out on is people who want to spend a lot of money but also have a small screen in a dark room, and this is a tiny market in comparison to the other 3 markets (budget, ultra high HT, pro) combined.
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post #17 of 17 Old 09-18-2017, 06:58 AM
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It's more that if they put DMDs in series no one will have the need to upgrade often and they risk pissing off the UHE market
IMO.

3LCD and LCoS already do alignments just as if not more difficult.

They just want to keep spoonfeeding suckers, and the market will probably continue to allow it unfortunately.

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