Short Throw, 3000+ lumens, at least 720p? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 18 Old 10-03-2017, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Short Throw, 3000+ lumens, at least 720p?

I'm already aware of these:

1. Optoma GT1080 Darbee
2. Optoma W316ST
3. Nec M353WS

But I need something bright enought to be used in a cosy low-lit classroom.
Looks to me that these models usually have a hard time under any light at all.
Do you guys know of something else that would help? Or these ones are enough?

(that chinese Mi laser projector would help, but it's not really avaible now)
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post #2 of 18 Old 10-03-2017, 07:41 AM
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Is this for a classroom or for a home theater?

What image size?

On a budget, something like this is inexpensive and should deliver close to 3,000 real world lumens:
https://epson.com/Clearance-Center/P...p/V11H690020-N

For higher resolution, this is a solid option and is brand new...
https://epson.com/For-Work/Projector...r/p/V11H846020

Anyway, anything on this page seems like it would be a great option...
https://epson.com/For-Work/Projector...lTgt_onRefresh
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post #3 of 18 Old 10-03-2017, 08:16 AM
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@novakpoa , it would help to know more details. If for classroom use are you a teacher in a school? Most schools provide classroom projectors. What will primarily be shown, charts and still images or video? How big is the screen (diagonal in inches) and what aspect ratio (1:1 square, 4:3, 16:9, etc.)? How many feet away from the screen does the projector need to be mounted? Finally, what is your budget in dollars, i.e. how much are you willing to spend to get the best performance?
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post #4 of 18 Old 10-03-2017, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks so much for the replies so far!

The minimum screen size is 150" and we're looking for any aspect ratio right now.
It's for a classroom, although not a traditional one, it's more like a professional-grade meeting room, with low ambient light.
I work in a tech company and this will be used for corporate courses, that's why we need these specs.
We usually show an equal amount of videos, images, charts, regular slides.
We need the projector about 1.5m away from the screen, due to room limits.
Our price range is something near the cost of the Optoma GT1080, but can be adjusted if there's any compelling options.
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post #5 of 18 Old 10-03-2017, 09:24 AM
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Ultra short throw (UST) projectors are typically not recommended for images larger than 100" as their special lenses tend to produce more distortion at larger image sizes. A 150" diagonal is beyond the recommendation of any lower cost UST projector that I'm aware of. It also takes a lot of lumens to properly illuminate a 150" screen in ambient light, and it's not entirely clear exactly how much ambient light you may have in your professional grade meeting room. For a tech company I think you would find the performance of the projectors you have mentioned to be inadequate for detailed work.

If you want to keep the budget within reason and get an acceptably bright, detailed image without distortion you really need to be looking at longer throw projector models. Is there any way that you could have a longer throw projector mounted further back in the room?
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post #6 of 18 Old 10-03-2017, 09:38 AM
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You have set a sub $1,000 budget for a room in which you intend to teach professionals about something on a regular basis and you have extreme requirements for the setup of the room and an unusually large screen size?

Not one bit of that makes sense to me.

At 150" in a blacked out room, the GT1080 may do okay, but with any lighting on, you will be lucky to achieve a 5:1 contrast ratio, and colors will be weak.

You need closer to a 4,000+ lumen specification for that screen size in a dim room, and you want that post calibration, not by manufacturer specifications.

If you are part of a tech company that is paying people $60,000+ a year ($30/hr) and you have 20 of them in the room, then that's $600/hr. for their time. Yet, you have a budget that is basically the cost of ONE HOUR of their time. I expect you want to get hundreds of quality hours out of the projector you install, so I would recommend that you might want to discuss with someone the possibility that perhaps your budget is just a smidgen too low.

Then you have the issue of the ultra short throw requirement and screen size which is extremely atypical for short throw models.

Knowing the short throw requirement now and the screen size you are after, then this is the list I would pull from, and I would specifically avoid the cheaper DLP models which won't touch their claimed specifications:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/proj...sort=brt&sz=15

While there are some $7000+ models on that list, and some $2,000- models on that list, the vast majority are between about $3,000 and $5,000. I would take this list to management and let them know that THIS is their budget they must meet to have acceptable results.

I would be very comfortable recommending this model to you, which is just under $3,000:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Sony-VPL-FW60.htm

You would need their short throw lens to go with it (as you would pretty much any projector on this list that is acceptable)...
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...hrow_lens.html

Which is CRAZY expensive. So, maybe a bad choice in projectors.

From Epson... http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-Pro_G7000W.htm
With this lens: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...Zoom_Lens.html

So, about $5,000 total vs. $7,000 for the Sony setup.

Be aware, that the Sony with a more typical throw lens is likely closer to $3,500. But, your requirement for the lens to be really close to such a large image increases cost significantly.

NOW: Would the GT1080, or (better) the BenQ HT2150ST be usable? Yes - if you completely black out the screen area with no lighting at all and use a screen with a bit of gain to it like 1.3-1.6 or so. You would have acceptable results for not a lot of cash. The HT2150 can't be as close, so it may not work, but it is actually brighter with colors than the GT1080.

Others may chime in with some recommendations as well, but I would seriously look at budget.

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
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post #7 of 18 Old 10-03-2017, 10:14 AM
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It turns out that there are two <$1,000 short throw (not UST) projectors currently in production that can throw a 150" image from 1.5m (5 feet) as measured from the front of the lens to the screen. They are both ViewSonic DLP models with WXGA (1280x800 pixels) resolution. While the specs on projectorcentral.com are virtually identical for the two, the ViewSonic site shows the PJD6552LWS to be brighter than the PJD5553LWS (3,500 lumens vs. 3,200 lumens), so I would recommend the PJD6552LWS for your use. Maybe someone else knows of a projector that didn't show up in this search on projectorcentral.com:

projectorcentral.com/projectors.cfm?g=1&hide=0&st=1&r=&br=&c=&w=&ar=&db =&zr=&wt=&ltg=&ll=&mfg=&p=&wr=&dt=&t=&pjl=0&pjw=0& pjh=0&td=5&is=150&i=d&tr=&tr2=&oop=1&sort=%24&sz=1 5

EDIT: I see that @AV_Integrated made the case for a more premium model while I was composing this. Of course his recommendations would provide superior performance. But if you are truly stuck with a <$1,000 budget and your original throw distance limit then I think the ViewSonic above would be a better choice than the models you mentioned in your first post.

Last edited by Dave in Green; 10-03-2017 at 10:19 AM.
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post #8 of 18 Old 10-03-2017, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Understood guys, and thanks again for your comments.

When i've mentioned tech company, i meant tech startup, so we're really chasing that small budget.
Also, we are based on Brazil, which overall diminishes the avaibility of quality equipment.
Nevertheless, thanks a lot for helping us understand more of what we are looking for!

If others would like to continue with recommendations, please feel free to!
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post #9 of 18 Old 10-03-2017, 10:58 AM
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Since you are on a tight budget and must make do with what you can afford, let's go back to the three projectors you mentioned in your first post. The Optoma W316ST needs to have the front of its lens 1.7m from a screen to produce a 150" image, so it might work for you if you can have your projector a little further back than 1.5m. The NEC M353WS should be able to throw a 150" image from 1.5m. I don't know why it didn't show up in the projectorcentral.com list. Those two would be comparable with the ViewSonic PJD6552LWS as bright 1280x800 pixel resolution business projectors. The Optoma GT1080Darbee like the Optoma W316ST would need 1.7m to make a 150" image. It would not be as bright as the other three options in brightest mode but would have finer resolution (1920x1080) for more detail. All of them could work but would not work as well as more expensive models.
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post #10 of 18 Old 10-03-2017, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
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@Dave in Green Thanks man! We do have a tight budget, but 1.7m is still okay for our purposes. So these three are still good options. Your suggestion by ViewSonic would be great, but it isn't avaible anywhere on Brazil. So i guess we're unfortunately stuck with the most recognisable brands and models. So, now we're stuck with this exact question:

Is 1080p with 3000 lumens (Optoma GT1080Darbee) better than 720p with 3500/3600 lumens (options 2 and 3)?

Our first guess is: yes.
As our students will be sited at about 6m to 9m from the screen, we believe 1080p will make a difference.
Here's some kind of reference we've found.

http + s3.carltonbale + .com + /resolution_chart.html

We're now aware that any of these options will in fact require a very dark room. To solve that, we're going to try manipulate the room lightning arranging spotlights where it matters, instead of lightning the entire room with dim lights. It is something that generally people with fixed ceiling lights can't do in their home theaters, but we can, so we thought it'll be a good idea to take advantage of that.

While we do appreciate the advice by @AV_Integrated on more premium options, we're aiming to achieve something like this, which should be possible within this budget.

Youtube -> watch?v=j8b43Gtb_0g

Another question is what kind of screen we should use, as of now, we're searching for white high gain ones, as suggested by @AV_Integrated .
Sounds like a reasonable plan, considering our budget and throw ratio needs.
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post #11 of 18 Old 10-03-2017, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novakpoa View Post
Thanks so much for the replies so far!

The minimum screen size is 150" and we're looking for any aspect ratio right now.
It's for a classroom, although not a traditional one, it's more like a professional-grade meeting room, with low ambient light.
I work in a tech company and this will be used for corporate courses, that's why we need these specs.
We usually show an equal amount of videos, images, charts, regular slides.
We need the projector about 1.5m away from the screen, due to room limits.
Our price range is something near the cost of the Optoma GT1080, but can be adjusted if there's any compelling options.
I suggest you talk a look at our latest Classroom Projector Report at the following link:

http://www.projectorreviews.com/proj...17-2018-intro/


For a screen size of 150 inches (is that width or diagonal size) and a projector-to-screen throw distance of just 1.5 meters (about 59 inches, I assume you can go even closer if needed), then a short throw, or actually an ultra short throw projector is what you will need. Many ultra short throw models are designed for use with a screen size of around 80 to 120 inches but most should work with larger screens (i.e., can focus correctly, but will have some image limitations), but the larger the screen size the dimmer the image, so look for a model with fairly high lumens output, and don't just read the manufacturer's spec. sheet, read the reviews for info on the actual brightness. However, these ultra short throw models generally cost more than entry level standard throw or short throw models. If you can make provisions for a longer throw distance (i.e., 200+ inches) that would open up the number suitable projectors greatly.

Ron Jones
Blog + Reviews + Articles: projectorreviews.com

Last edited by Ron Jones; 10-03-2017 at 03:07 PM.
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post #12 of 18 Old 10-03-2017, 02:57 PM
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@novakpoa , I agree with you that with your budget and your short throw need that the Optoma GT1080Darbee is probably the best compromise for your needs. You really won't know exactly what kind of lighting you might need until you actually have the projector set up and projecting onto a 150" screen, so I would advise not to do anything with the lighting until you actually have the projector and screen set up and running.

With greater than 1.0 gain screens you do need to be careful because they achieve that gain by reflecting more image light toward the center of the room and less to the sides. So as gain goes up you get a brighter image for those sitting near the center of the room and a dimmer image for those sitting near the sides of the room. Also, higher gain screens can be more expensive than standard 1.0 gain white screens. So it might be best to focus more on managing room lighting than on trying to find a higher gain screen. I don't even know what screen options you may have in Brazil.

It's generally recommended that the screen image for a dark home or commercial theater should ideally have a brightness level of about 16 foot lamberts but that with some ambient light in the room you might want 50 or more foot lamberts. To calculate how many foot lamberts you can produce with a given projector and screen you divide the lumens the projector can produce by the screen's image area. A 150" 16:9 aspect ratio screen has an image area of about 67 square feet and the GT1080 Darbee is rated at a maximum of 3,000 lumens in brightest mode with full lamp power. Dividing 3,000 by 67 results in about 45 foot lamberts.

In the real world you will probably get closer to 2,500 actual lumens when the projector lamp is new and projector lamps typically lose about 25% of their brightness over the first 500 hours of operation. So you should expect actual screen brightness more in the 30-40 foot lambert range. As you can see it's not easy to get a big, bright image with an inexpensive projector. Ideally you would want a more expensive projector that produces 5,000 or more lumens. With the 3,000 lumen GT1080Darbee the darker you can make the area near the screen the better the image will look.
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post #13 of 18 Old 10-04-2017, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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@Dave in Green Understood, what a great guide by the way! Thanks again for everything so far.

These new considerations are extremely valuable, and we're going to look into it. So, we're planning our room setup the best we can, considering our throw ratio and budget needs. But for what it looks like, it'll be a risk to keep this as our only plan.

Thanks to your comments, I'm going to start looking for regular short throw projectors, and suggest them as an alternative, with some compromise on the room layout, but greater lumens/visibility, etc. While we do agree that the Optoma Darbee could provide a nice image, the room will need to be pitch black for the best image quality. Or very dark for reasonable image quality. And also that technical limitations that you pointed out, about the lumens of the lamp throught its life span, that matters as well.

Bottom-line, we're going to find a way to test our plan A (Optoma Darbee with controlled lightning), as you suggested.
While already searching for our plan B (regular short throw projector, with some compromise on room layout).

Either way, you helped a lot. Thanks!
As soon as we try these options on a real world scenario, I can post here our conclusions.
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post #14 of 18 Old 10-04-2017, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novakpoa View Post
... Thanks to your comments, I'm going to start looking for regular short throw projectors, and suggest them as an alternative, with some compromise on the room layout, but greater lumens/visibility, etc. ...
I made a mistake in my first post. I referred to ultra short throw (UST) projectors when in fact all of the projectors that you have been considering are technically regular short throw and not UST. For example a UST projector can throw the same size image as the short throw Optoma GT1080Darbee from about half the distance to the screen. So if you want something with a little longer throw than the Optoma GT1080Darbee it will be a regular throw and not a regular short throw. I apologize for confusing the issue.

I just checked the Epson Brasil website and was disappointed to see that there is only a limited selection of Epson projectors in your country. Epson has a nice 5,000 lumen business projector in the USA that would be good for your use and is also not terribly expensive. It's the Epson PowerLite 2250U Wireless Full HD WUXGA 1920x1200 pixels) 3LCD projector and it sells in the USA for $1,499.

The 2250U can throw a 150" image from as close as 4.5m, which is about an average throw for a regular throw projector. It could produce a maximum 75 foot lamberts on a 150" screen, so even as the lamp ages it should still stay above 50 foot lamberts. Best of all Epson sells genuine replacement lamps for the 2250U for just $99, which is less than half the price that other projector companies charge for genuine replacement lamps. If you can find this Epson model in Brasil I think it would work well for you.

I don't know of any professional reviews of the 2250U but projectorreviews.com did have a review of the more expensive 2265U that produces 5,500 lumens. The 2250U will have similar performance to the 2265U except 500 fewer lumens, which would still be bright enough for you and costs $800 less than the $2,299 2265U. I'll include a link below to the 2265U review and also to a description of the 2250U on the Epson USA site:

projectorreviews.com/epson/epson-powerlite-2265u-projector-review/

epson.com/For-Work/Projectors/Meeting-Room/PowerLite-2250U-Wireless-Full-HD-WUXGA-3LCD-Projector-/p/V11H871020
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Yes, avaibility is quite scarce on Brazil, unfortunately.

And agreed, all this time we were talking about short throw projectors, not ultra short. But even though the Optoma GT1080 could be considered short throw, it has one of the shortest throw in this range. So far, no ultra short projector can reproduce a 150" diagonal screen that I know of, and that's not even from famous brands.

So, I've talked to the team, and while working within these constraints, we still believe the Optoma is our best bet, and we are currently arranging a schedule to plan a business trip and see it in action on Rio de Janeiro, on Optoma's official brazilian supplier. Also, they've commented that throw ratio isn't flexible at all (there's actually some good reasons), and they're quite inflexible on screen size. The only real tradeoff in mind is higher resolution (Optoma GT1080 Darbee) x higher lumens (Optoma W316ST). And that's what we're going to try and check out personally. The throw ratio restriction also discarded the Epson Powerlite 2250U.

If by any means they're completely disappointed with both of them, which is extremely unlikely, i'm going to try and push it for a smaller screen size, which opens up some ultra short throw options. But assuming that this will not happen, and with our situation in mind, which of these two would you choose?

Optoma GT1080 Darbee or Optoma W316ST?
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post #16 of 18 Old 10-04-2017, 04:10 PM
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@novakpoa , you said students will be sitting at about 6m-9m from the screen. I don't think you should go smaller than a 150" screen. The students sitting in the back row 9m from a 150" screen will see an image that looks the same size as a 50" TV from 3m, which will not look very big. I don't think you want to go smaller than 150" or students may have problems seeing small features in the image.

Students in the front row 6m from a 150" screen will see a small difference in detail between the lower resolution W316ST and the higher resolution GT1080Darbee. By the time you get to the back row 9m from the screen students will see virtually no difference. So I think that more lumens for a brighter image may be more important than more resolution for finer detail. The W316ST uses a 210 watt lamp while the GT1080Darbee uses a 190 watt lamp, and I think you would find that extra brightness to be more helpful for visibility than higher resolution.

Neither the GT1080Darbee or W316ST has a zoom lens, which is not a bad thing. Instead of zooming the lens to get a bigger or smaller image you simply move the projector forward or backward until the image is the right size to fill the screen. Once in place for the right image size you don't have to worry about it anymore. Zoom lenses can reduce projector light output, so not having a zoom lens can be an advantage when trying to get the most lumens from the projector to the screen.

While I'm guessing the W316ST will be the best compromise, if you are going to have a chance to see a demonstration of both projectors then your own eyes will tell you which might be best for your use. Be sure not to stand too close to the screen or the finer detail of the GT1080Darbee will be more impressive than it would appear from 6m-9m away. And be sure to have both projectors set to high lamp and brightest mode so you can see the difference in image brightness.
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post #17 of 18 Old 10-05-2017, 06:00 AM - Thread Starter
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@Dave in Green Got it, and thanks again!

We're going to consider your comments, specially when we see them personally. Great response on the screen size, I was probably going to bump into that issue very soon, regarding the visibility of the screen by the students on the last row. And in fact the GT1080Darbee is more impressive from a smaller distance, but that will not be the case for the students, so i'll make sure we test it right.

So yeah, now it's up to us when we see them personally. It's a shame that we don't have the same variety of projectors here, but I honestly think both of these will do the trick for us. Going to comment here when we advance further on this matter.
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post #18 of 18 Old 10-05-2017, 08:31 AM
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@novakpoa , since anything less than 5,000 lumens will be marginal on a 150" screen in ambient light, the key thing to focus on is managing the ambient light. The best practices for projection with some ambient light include using the minimal amount of lighting required and keeping it at the end of the room where the viewers are sitting and away from the screen area. Having the light fixtures on dimming switches is important to fine-tuning the amount of light. The best type of lighting is generally considered recessed can lights that direct the light straight down. Light fixtures that spread the light in all directions will result in more hitting the screen and washing out the image. I'll look forward to hearing how this works out for you.
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