**The Ultimate Rainbow Discussion Thread** - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 499 Old 12-23-2003, 06:27 AM
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Now THAT'S funny!
That movie that someone made trying to catch rainbows is priceless. I guess we can rule out jumping on trampolines whilst watching movies on our X1's.

now THATS comedy!!

Another problem though is if you're having a seizure... Then you'll see rainbow galore... Or if you sneeze... Crap you might see them then.... Or if you fall down or something.... Man, I hope there's still time to cancel my X1 purchase!!

Damnit.. Had I known I would not have ordered... And does that mean that I'll see rainbows while watching my Sepultura concert DVD and doing my headbanging?! Someone plz tell me this isn't happening!!

Also can someone confirm that if I wave my arms in front of my face while watching a movie I'll see rainbows?! That would really suck... Who dosen't wave his arms in front of his face during his favourite movie?!

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post #92 of 499 Old 12-23-2003, 12:44 PM
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I have an X1. Rainbows really bothered me at first. However, once I mounted my projector, the rainbows were really reduced. I guess it is because of the angle of the PJ hitting the HCCV screen.

I still see them every now and then but nothing like it used to be.
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post #93 of 499 Old 12-23-2003, 02:12 PM
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I personally am sickened by DLP color wheel artifacts to the point that I am physically unable to watch one for more than an hour. It is particularly annoying to sit in a boardroom with a DLP projected image... I have to close my eyes constantly to handle the strain. I wish I wasn't and would be glad to chuck my Z2 in favor of the superior DLP PQ.

I have to wonder why some have to poo-poo the notion that others cannot tolerate DLP images. As someone mentioned earlier, I guess some need to justify their purchases.

Someone else mentioned that the GooX1 removed the X1 rainbows. In my experience, the GooX1 minimizes the rainbows to a very tolerable level, but did not removed them completely. The biggest reason was the drop in brightness in the Goo.

Seeing a X1, GooX1 and LT260 back to back made me realize that rainbows are correlated with projector brightness. The LT260 is a rainbow fest with it's bright output. Even working hard to minimize rainbow visibility (keeping my head and eyes as still as possible )... they were still highly noticable while blinking (to me, that is).

As a result, it is possible that the increase in complaints about DLP rainbows is correlated to brighter DLP projectors being available. I could not readily see rainbows on a 5 year old Infocus SVGA projector that could not have been outputing more than 250 lumen.

I'd recommend to a newbie that they not do stupid things to try to see rainbows. If you don't see them while viewing normally, then be happy and buy a DLP. Otherwise, you are going to have to deal with the noticable negatives of LCD, specifically FPN and lower black levels. Either that or you will have to wait for LCOS to drop in price.

- JP in TOronto
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post #94 of 499 Old 12-23-2003, 02:15 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by David Mendicino
I am obliged to step in. Anyone who remembers me will know my viewpoint about rainbows.

I still find it funny that people get overly defensive and deny the existence of the colour separation artifacts. There is a reason TI keep increasing colour wheel speed. They are not doing it just for the fun of it.

There is likely a lot of physiological issues involved, much like sensitivity to the 60 hz flicker on monitors.

I think it is much better that people know in advance about them, because unlike screendoor effect, it is not something you will notice instantly, and may never notice. But if you do, and you weren't looking for it, it could be a real problem.

For those of you who do not notice them, or are not bothered by them, I am envious of you because there are alot of great DLP's out there. However, do not instantly negate or discount the opinions of those who do see them, simply because you are not bothered by them. Clearly, there is a great deal of subjectivity here. You do not see a screen door sticky thread because it is something that, exists all the time, and is really a matter of your visual acquity at a given distance. Rainbows are not.

I do not advise going hunting for them. But sometimes, it is inevitable. The first time I saw a DLP, which was years ago, it was nearly instantaneous, likely due to the way I watch movies. I like the screen big. I like to have to move my eyes around the screen, as it makes me feel immersed. This type of viewing habit combined with single chip DLP's are not compatible.

Furthemore, for all those who say the "why haven't we met someone who is bothered by them?" , you must realize that you are dealing with such a small number of people in general that to ask that question seems odd. Unless your entire community is made up of home theatre enthusiasts, you won't know what to expect.

Furthermore, I am sure alot of people see it, but dont' know what it is, and so do not comment. Obviously, once you tell them what it is, it screws up any testing because they will then be on the lookout for it.

Great post David. I am one of the guys that actually went to Kysersoze's place and saw his LT240K in action. Unfortunately I saw raibows everywhere when watching Gladiator. The same for the X1 we tried. And I am sad I saw them. I would love to have a rainbow free DLP with such great CR on my basement, replacing my LCD. The funny thing is on Dinosaur for example I did not see rainbows at all. Also when I went to a store in Kanata and saw another DLP (I do not remember the brand but it was Italian I think and had a $15,000 price tag) I could not see any rainbows at all. As we know this is different from movie to movie and from projector to projector.
I do agree we cannot simply 'hide' the fact that DLPs do have rainbow issues. The same for LCDs screendoor. As techies that most of the time will form opinions on many other readers I feel obliged to let them know about all the issues each technology has. I always tell my friends that ask about my setup they must see/try each technology to see which one will be the right one for them. A PJ for me is like a tailor made suit. The one made for me will not fit you. A DLP may be the best PJ for someone but it is the most terrible thing for me, ruining my viewing experience and giving me real headaches (I may be over sensitive to rainbows, who knows).
And Mike (Kysersoze) I saw rainbows before I knew what they were. After coming to this forum years ago I learned why/where they were coming from, as I learned many other things about PJs.
Again, what I do think is we should let everyone know the PROs and CONs on all technologies, not hiding or making it not sound that bad anything. As I said, what is ok for some people may be the show stopper for others. That is why everyone should learn/be aware about all PJs strenghts/weaknesses. This is the only real way to help people that usually have no clue about PJs and what to expect from them.

Cheers,
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post #95 of 499 Old 12-23-2003, 03:17 PM
 
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Quote:


Originally posted by JPinTO
I have to wonder why some have to poo-poo the notion that others cannot tolerate DLP images. As someone mentioned earlier, I guess some need to justify their purchases.

That's true. It is rude and intolerant to think that anyone who is different is wrong.
I'm not sure about the justification of purchase. I quess the normal human desire to have everyone approve of what we find valuable might come in play.
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post #96 of 499 Old 12-23-2003, 03:20 PM
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I think you are misunderstanding the point I made. It's not that R's aren't real, they are. But IMHO they are blown out of proportion. Many of us have shown our projectors to 20+ people with nobody complaining of rainbows. So are they real? Yes. Is it *likely* that they will ruin your viewing experience if you don't know to look for them? NO. Not very likely. I only said that the video of the guy MADLY and violently shaking his camera seemed to make the point--R's are rare and difficult to see for MOST people, but not all. Let's everyone mellow out here. I mean did you rainbow experiencers actually watch that video?

Check here later for a thoughtful, funny, profound .sig line.
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post #97 of 499 Old 12-23-2003, 04:53 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by jayw
I think you are misunderstanding the point I made. It's not that R's aren't real, they are. But IMHO they are blown out of proportion. Many of us have shown our projectors to 20+ people with nobody complaining of rainbows. So are they real? Yes. Is it *likely* that they will ruin your viewing experience if you don't know to look for them? NO. Not very likely. I only said that the video of the guy MADLY and violently shaking his camera seemed to make the point--R's are rare and difficult to see for MOST people, but not all. Let's everyone mellow out here. I mean did you rainbow experiencers actually watch that video?

I would surmise, which is another way of saying I have no scientific evidence but only anecdotal evidence, that, if you show a single-chip DLP projector to 20 people, that it would be a very rare occurrence that NONE of them could see rainbows after a significant time of exposure (i.e., more than 15-20 minutes.) Some might not know what they are when they see them. I did not at first. I thought it was a minor glitch on the DVD. It was only after I saw another two or three that my mind drifted back to the things I had read on this forum about "rainbows." I then concluded (correctly) that this is what I was seeing. Had I not previously read posts on this forum about the phenomenon, I would never have known what I was seeing. I think that some in our hypothetical group of 20 might see them if you merely pointed out what they were, but as David M. notes, this skews the test.

Also, I suspect some don't see rainbows until after a significant amount of exposure. I watched the single chip DLP I owned for about three hours + before I saw the first one, then I saw them a few times for the next hour of exposure, then I began to see them with increasing frequency. So casual viewers might also not see them, but might see them with more experience with the DLP in question.

I also believe that you are probably correct that "MOST" people will not see rainbows if the phenomenon is not pointed out to them -- if by the word "MOST" you mean more than 50% (and if we are talking about the casual viewer). But I disagree somewhat when you say rainbows are overblown. They are overblown if they don't bother you, or if you find them easy to live with. They are not overblown if they bother you. And while they do get a lot of "press" on this forum, this forum is populated by people who have spent or are looking to spend thousands of dollars to try to duplicate a movie experience in their home. For many of us, it is not "overblowing" an issue to point out the problem of "rainbows," anymore than it would be to tell people that if they buy a certain type of projector, there is a 10% chance (or whatever the right figure is) that every few minutes during the movie they will hear a high pitched noise that no one else will hear (this is an indication of how much rainbows bother me when I'm trying to enjoy a movie), I'd certainly like to know those odds, or at least know about the issue, before I plunk down my money.
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post #98 of 499 Old 12-23-2003, 10:47 PM
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Smitty,
I remember having this conversation, with you in line with my thoughts, a few years ago! You went from what, seleco, to a DILA, or something like that?

Two things I would say, and agree with what others have said.

For those who say it is blown out of proportion, you are speaking from your own viewpoint. To anyone who is bothered by them, it can be VERY proportional indeed.

Secondly, there is CLEARLY a link between brightness/contrast and rainbows.

I was at a store watching a Sim2 a year or so ago. It had a 4x or 5x colour wheel. When ambient light was on, in the background and sides of me, (not hitting the screen directly), I saw very few rainbows. I was watching Gladiator on an 80" screen.

However, when the guy turned off the lights completely, there they were, as bright and noticeable as ever. I am not certain if it is contrast, or brightness that is doing it, but I would warn everyone that if you are considering a DLP, make sure you test it in similar environments that you will be in your own home. My room is completely light controlled. It is a cave, and based on my experience, I know this would have an affect on rainbow visibility.

All in all, lets keep this simple. Those of you who own a DLP and don't see rainbows. You are fortunate. However, there is no need to claim that somethign is out of proportion, because it does not affect you, or yoru 20 friends. This thread is just to keep everyone informed about the phenomenon. Clearly, we dont' have one for screen door effect of FPN, or whatnot, because these are readily visible to everyone who has good eyesight. Rainbows, on the other hand, involve so much more than just your visual acquity.

I am certain that the thread creator had no intention to put anyone on the defensive, or make you justify your purchase. Indeed, if you don't see rainbows, you shouldn't need to justify anything in the first place.

David Mendicino
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post #99 of 499 Old 12-24-2003, 09:23 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by David Mendicino
Smitty,
I remember having this conversation, with you in line with my thoughts, a few years ago! You went from what, seleco, to a DILA, or something like that?

I had the first generation Dwin DLP, and then I went to a Sanyo PLV-60 (too much screen door), and then to a DILA. I follow the threads and articles on the new DLP's very closely, though. It sounds like the new DLP's have better contrast and black levels than my DILA, but still have the rainbow issue, albeit a significantly reduced one. I am waiting to see if the rainbow issue is eventually eliminated or if the 3-chippers come in at a reasonable price.
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post #100 of 499 Old 12-24-2003, 09:31 AM
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Indeed. However, I think they may be an ironic trend, in that if the colour wheel stays at 5x, increases in brightness/contrast may actually make the rainbow worse. Hard to say, as no one ahs really tested, and it seems the higher contrast DLP's produced with low brightness, which may be what is causing the reduced rainbows.

David Mendicino
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post #101 of 499 Old 12-24-2003, 10:46 AM
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Originally posted by smitty
I am waiting to see if the rainbow issue is eventually eliminated or if the 3-chippers come in at a reasonable price.

How many years has TI been producing DLP chips already? What's the hold up in producing 3-chip DLP?

- JP in TOronto
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post #102 of 499 Old 12-24-2003, 10:53 AM
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I am from the sixties and back then, I spend half my fortune and brains to see these wonderful rainbows. Who could ever dream that one day they would come as a surprice with the glorieus pics of the magnificent X1.
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post #103 of 499 Old 12-24-2003, 03:46 PM
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The "none of my guests has complained" argument is bogus. Is anyone in the habit of going to someone's house and complaining about a minor headache? I think not -- we'd sound like girly-men. We just suck it up and think our sinuses are probably plugged or something. It would never occur to a video newbie that the screen could be causing his minor discomfort. Certainly it's nothing worth mentioning to the host who is so proud of his new toy.

Dennis H
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post #104 of 499 Old 12-24-2003, 11:06 PM
 
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Just got back from Christmas eve service. Interestingly enough the sermon was:

Are Rainbows a metaphorical message from God?

Or

Is humor an antidote to extremism?
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post #105 of 499 Old 12-25-2003, 08:53 PM
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Are Rainbows a metaphorical message from God?

Or

Is humor an antidote to extremism?

An acid trip or flash back from the 70's !

No, there really isn't rainbows its just a few percent who imagine them.
Kinda like when we think we see pixelization, SDE, dithering etc. because these things are not distracting like rainbows!!!!

Merry Christmas to All

Ross
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post #106 of 499 Old 12-25-2003, 10:57 PM
 
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Sorry if I seemed to make light of something that does distract some people. They aren't an issue for me but if their frequency were greater I'm sure they would become one.

It's the last hour of Christmas day so I say:
And To all a Good Night.

Mike
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post #107 of 499 Old 12-25-2003, 11:12 PM
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good night Mike ( even though on the east coast it is tomorrow )
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post #108 of 499 Old 12-26-2003, 08:40 AM
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Doesn't everyone see rainbows watching that WMV file in page 4?

I have seen a Dt200 at a local retailer. I didn't see R's watching Matrix Reloaded, but I do think I had a slight headache after 15 minutes. Is that symptomatic of a R problem? Does that go away after you've watched your DLP projector for a while? I am trying to convince myself that a DLP would be ok, am I fooling myself?
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post #109 of 499 Old 12-26-2003, 12:01 PM
 
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Try the free Infocus 10 day inhome trial and see. After 400+ hours no one who has viewed our X1 HT has had a problem. Seeing is believing, and for us, enjoying.

Good luck
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post #110 of 499 Old 12-26-2003, 12:47 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Cyrano


Are Rainbows a metaphorical message from God?

Or

Is humor an antidote to extremism?

Laughing my bum off here ...
That sounds too much like the ending to an old Rocky and Bullwinkle cartoon!!! I can even hear the voice ...

"Next weeks episode is .... Are Rainbows a metaphorical message from God? -OR- Is humor an antidote to extremism? ... stay tuned to find out!"
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post #111 of 499 Old 12-26-2003, 02:43 PM
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Cyrano,

No apologies needed, but rainbows for me are an issue( even though I wish it wasn't). I once owned a DLP but couldn't handle the rainbows any more.

We all perceive things different that was my point.
You are lucky if you don't see them. We are all sensitive or perceive video differently. Some people see dithering, over saturated colors, etc, some don't, just like rainbows. But when you blink your eyes and see stretches of color all over the screen, its a problem.

It would be nice if we did not have these issues at all.

Ross
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post #112 of 499 Old 12-27-2003, 10:42 AM
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A few years ago, my cousin bought a big rear projection. As I was watching it I noticed a green flash whenever I turned away or moved my eyes quickly away to talk to someone. I turned to the guy next to me and asked him if he saw the same. He told me it was the rum. So a few years later I bought good rear projection and same thing. I am in the market for a front projector but have no experience with them. Is there a good chance I am suseptable to the dlp rainbows. I don't have any nearby to test. Thanks.

Sid
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post #113 of 499 Old 12-27-2003, 08:10 PM
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I see rainbows all the time with my RPTV. I also see them more often on DLP tv's, so if you are like me you will probably also see them on a DLP front projector.
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post #114 of 499 Old 12-28-2003, 01:08 PM
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AHHHHH!!! I saw rainbows! I owned an X1 for 4 months never saw one rainbow, then I hooked up my new Dell 3200 to a progressive scan DVD and boom! They were everywhere. Then I hooked up my HTPC to the Dell, same DVD no rainbows, very odd.

Something else that is strange, after nobody had mentioned they had seen anything wrong with the picture, I asked if anybody had seen any werid raindowish moving artifacts. One of my friends said yeah, and I was glad that is was the projector and not him going crazy. I then adjusted the gamma settings, turned down the green and turned up the blue and red and no more rainbows. These rainbows are a very interesting creature.

Chris
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post #115 of 499 Old 12-28-2003, 04:42 PM
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I see rainbows on some CRT's as well. I belive it is either due to the green decaying at a slower rate than blue and red, or slight misconvergence.

David Mendicino
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post #116 of 499 Old 12-28-2003, 06:24 PM
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Im not sure David,
I saw rainbows on my panasonic rptv since day one, and a relative just bought a 51'' toshiba and I saw them there as well. As with dlp it is usually on dark screens with thin bright areas, and I see them as I look left to right.

The only other weird phenomenon I have seen is in lord of the rings the two towers. In the scene where the riders of rohan kill the orcs from horseback, I see flashing red all over the place. Its not rainbows but I dont know what it is.
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post #117 of 499 Old 12-28-2003, 06:49 PM
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The newness doesn't mean anything.
It is because it seems the green phosphor's on CRT's don't turn dim as fast as the other two colours. Basically, so when you move your eyes, you still see the bit of green. HOw it appears to you, however, can vary. I do see it on the same scenes as with DLPs, it is with high contrast areas.
The red flashing, now that I can't answer, but I don't doubt you see them.

David Mendicino
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post #118 of 499 Old 12-29-2003, 08:56 AM
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I just got my Infocus Screenplay 4800 (which I guess is the X1) and so far I have been thrilled with it. I was really worried about all the fuss about the rainbow effects and everything. When I finally noticed it I had to start laughing. Was this the big disaster deal breaking flaw that would make me hate a DLP pj? Not.

Man this rainbow effect is really blown out of proportion. For the most part you cant even detect them unless you shake your head back and forth like a lunatic. The only time I can really notice them is when the scene is really dark and a thin white type object is darting around. I noticed them in the fight sequence in "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" when Max fights Blaster in the dome. The rainbow effect was quite noticeable there and it sort of sucked. However, that has been the only time that I was bothered by the effect. For the other 95% of the time I was in video heaven. My children are trying to dominate my viewing pleasure with "Finding Nemo" and "Monsters, Inc". Trust me, pop in good old "Shrek" into the SP4800 /X1 and you will be too busy picking your gawking jaw up off the floor to look for any flaws or artifacts.

The folks here who are going nuts over rainbows need to simply plop $40,000 on a high end CRT projector because that is the only way you will be happy. If they buy a DLP they see rainbows, if they buy a LCD they see screendoors.

The fact is I just bought a Movie theatre experience for $1000. If you are one of those people like myself who were nervous about all the stuff you read on DLP rainbow effects fear not. This was the best $1000 dollars I ever spent.

As an avid PC gamer I was hesitant on the native 800 X 600 display because I didnt know how good it would look upscaling my video games to 1024 X768. The Screenplay4800 looks and performs amazingly at 1024 X 768 infact I think it looks better than it does in 800 mode. I dont know if this has anything to do with the PJ operating at 75Hz when in 1024 or not. Simply incredible. 10 ft of gaming goodness via high res PC cannot be beaten by any console games. Battlefield 1942 on a 10 ft screen will give you vertigo. I feel like I am on a ride at Universal Studios. I could go on and on but I really wanted to address the whole rainblow issue. Yes, I can see them occasionaly in certain scenes but man the other 95% of the time I am just so overwhelmed in video movie gaming goodness to even notice or care. Would I spend an extra $1500 to get a better PJ with a faster 6X color wheel to reduce rainbows? Helllllzzzzz no! You must be outside your mind.

If I had to pick on something to knock on my pj it would be that it isnt bright enough for daytime viewing ( I have lots of windows). Then again, I have it projecting on a light green wall.
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post #119 of 499 Old 12-29-2003, 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by IThanos
I just got my Infocus Screenplay 4800 (which I guess is the X1) and so far I have been thrilled with it. I was really worried about all the fuss about the rainbow effects and everything. When I finally noticed it I had to start laughing. Was this the big disaster deal breaking flaw that would make me hate a DLP pj? Not.

Man this rainbow effect is really blown out of proportion. For the most part you cant even detect them unless you shake your head back and forth like a lunatic.
. . . .

Would I spend an extra $1500 to get a better PJ with a faster 6X color wheel to reduce rainbows? Helllllzzzzz no! You must be outside your mind.
. . . .


Thanks for setting this issue straight. Some people think that this issue is a matter of perception, preferences, and value judgments, when it is not. There is only one right answer and you in your infinite wisdom have found it. Thank you for sharing it and saving us and the world from ignorance.
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post #120 of 499 Old 12-29-2003, 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by IThanos
Man this rainbow effect is really blown out of proportion.

Hey IThanos: Trust me on this one....
I have one word for you: Duck!!!

Check here later for a thoughtful, funny, profound .sig line.
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