PLV-Z3 Tweak Thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 922 Old 06-16-2005, 11:56 AM
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I think the easy answer is that you can hear the iris opening and closing. Right??


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post #272 of 922 Old 06-16-2005, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnykretentiv View Post

I think the easy answer is that you can hear the iris opening and closing. Right??


When you are adjusting the IRIS manually, you can absolutely hear it. So it would certainly seem logical that if it were adjusting automatically you would hear it as well. I don't hear a thing when the PJ is on personally.
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post #273 of 922 Old 06-16-2005, 12:48 PM
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I thought two medium modes (more than theater black and less than full tilt) adjusted. I hear the fan kick in once in a while if (almost never) I use those modes. But I think the bulb is just getting cranked up and the iris is remaining the same. Either way I leave mine in theater black all the time.


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post #274 of 922 Old 06-16-2005, 12:53 PM
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I figured that the only way to make the iris react quickly if were adaptive would be to go from a 0 IRE pattern (black) to 100 IRE and listen to see if it opens and closes. I've done this with my ear next to the projector in every mode possible, and I don't hear a damn thing. And yet, I've seen several bits of product literature from Sanyo that say the iris adjusts automatically. You'd think if this was something they decided not to leave in, they would remove all mention of it from their product sheets.

Then you have Cine4Home, who report that the iris on their unit DID automatically adjust, but only in Dynamic mode and only affecting the higher IRE levels. I know this really isn't necessarily relevant to the tweaks thread per se, but it still makes me wonder whether the feature is there and we don't know how to access it. There has to be SOMETHING that gets us closer to Sanyo's 2000:1 claimed contrast ratio though, because the best settings I can find for mine only get us about half of that per ROne's testing.

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post #275 of 922 Old 06-16-2005, 01:16 PM
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This is directly from Sanyo; http://www.sanyo-lcdp.com/english/pr.../plvz3_01.html


If this doesn't confuse you, nothing will. It is very contradicting.

A few highlights:

"Via remote control, you can change the amount of projected light in 63 gradations of approximately 0.6%. Contrast can thus be adjusted from 100% down to around 60%. Throughout this fine-tuning, the lens iris contracts and dilates smoothly, without noticeable jumpiness."

"The PLV-Z3 analyzes the average picture level (APL) of the screen, and controls the lamp output automatically. Users can choose from among four modes: Bright, React Image 1, React Image 2, and Theater Black. React Image 2 provides a heightened sense of image contrast, while at the same time also reducing noise. "

"Thanks to the Lens Diaphragm and SANYO's original Dimmer, the PLV-Z3 achieves a remarkable contrast ratio of 2000:1. The Dimmer measures screen brightness and automatically determines the appropriate volume of light for the lamp. This way, problems with glaring whites or murky, undifferentiated blacks are resolved, as is the problem of a "gray-black" screen. The result: a high-contrast, three-dimensional image with stunningly real blacks."
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post #276 of 922 Old 06-16-2005, 02:32 PM
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I think they're talking about the lamp modulation, not the iris. Either way, it's awfully confusing.

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post #277 of 922 Old 06-16-2005, 08:21 PM
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jeremy's settings look good on my screen... accept that for my filter free projector (filter is on it's way) i found things way to red... so i put red on -7 and i set green and blue at 0 and it looks much better now... i was having lcd buyers remorse until i made that change... my screen looked crayola-ed before the red adjustment. also, if you don't have a perfectly light controlled room, i have found jacking up the contrast to 31 during daytime view really makes a huge difference as far making the picture watchable (i have on big shaded window that lets in a fair amount of light even with the shade drawn).
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post #278 of 922 Old 06-16-2005, 09:37 PM
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Quote:


i found things way to red... so i put red on -7 and i set green and blue at 0 and it looks much better now

Again, I feel the need to explain something:
Do NOT adjust the Red, Green and Blue controls based on a color picture or a perceived excess of a certain color in the picture. Those controls do NOT adjust the amount of each individual color. They are used to adjust the amount of each color that creates white. These controls are only to make adjustments to the grayscale, NOT to the color decoding, which is a completely different thing. You can crank red down all the way and it will not make a huge difference in the color of things on your screen, other than the fact that white will now no longer be white - it will have an excess of green and blue.

Sadly, there are no adjustments to reduce the amount of red in the color decoder, and the Z3 looks to have about a 10-15% surplus of red if you adjust color and tint using blue with a calibration disc (at least with component video, and it is seen primarily in how red fleshtones will appear). You have seen us talk about using a line level attenuator to alleviate this problem. I'll explain why that works in very basic terms:

For an explanation of how component video works, see this link: http://www.projectorcentral.com/component.htm
By placing a 1dB attenuator on the Cr lead of the component video cable (the red color difference lead), you are basically reducing the amount of red before it reaches the projector by about 10%. Thusly, when the projector reproduces red in the color decoder, the 10% surplus of red in the decoder roughly brings red back even with the blue level. This is the ONLY way to reduce the red push on the Z3 that I am aware of.

Halcali, jacking up the contrast for daytime viewing may seem to make things watchable, but you are likely severely clipping whites. This will make the picture seem brighter... but you're actually reducing detail. With the contrast control set to above clipping, levels of gray below white become the same as the maximum video white. Ideally, you would want to instead open the iris to allow more light to the screen or use a higher bulb mode during the day. Personally, I hit up justblinds.com for some custom-sized poly\\mylar blackout shades, which worked extremely well and didn't break the bank.

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post #279 of 922 Old 06-17-2005, 02:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

There has to be SOMETHING that gets us closer to Sanyo's 2000:1 claimed contrast ratio though, because the best settings I can find for mine only get us about half of that per ROne's testing.

I think we could get close to 2000:1 if we eschew anything to do with a cinematic picture by driving RGB and contrast as high possible on one of the higher bulb settings which is undoubtedly how sanyo arrive at that figure.

For our purposes could the difference between out 1000ish CR and cine4home's be the use of the adaptive bulb settings?

What did they use?

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post #280 of 922 Old 06-17-2005, 05:16 AM
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It may well be that Cine4Home was using one of the adapative bulb settings. I don't see how they couldn't have been, considering the results you've posted. However, no one can say what filter or settings they used because they do calibrations for a business over there and don't want to give away their secret. For all we know, they might have been using a DAY-FL or 81EF filter like the Panny 700 users are toying with.

Since we're already setting contrast to just below clipping, driving it into clipping would gain no extra full-on/full-off contrast; it would simply crush white at the higher IRE levels. So who knows how Sanyo came up with the 2,000:1 contrast ratio they claim. Maybe they're measuring white with the iris fully open and then black with the iris fully closed. Or maybe their original unit DID have an adaptive iris and that's how they measured. Personally, after seeing how the adaptive iris on the Panny 700 screws up gamma, I can live without that feature.

All in all, I'm happy with the settings I posted earlier in the thread using the CC20R filter. With my high contrast matte white screen (1.1 gain, gray base), I'm getting an image that is infinitely better than the out-of-the-box settings and looks very similar to my ISF calibrated RPTV. Unless you've found any better settings so far or found that the CC30R filter calibrates out better, it's possible that we've simply reached the limits of what the Z3 can do.

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post #281 of 922 Old 06-17-2005, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halcali View Post

jeremy's settings look good on my screen... accept that for my filter free projector (filter is on it's way) i found things way to red... so i put red on -7 and i set green and blue at 0 and it looks much better now... i was having lcd buyers remorse until i made that change... my screen looked crayola-ed before the red adjustment. also, if you don't have a perfectly light controlled room, i have found jacking up the contrast to 31 during daytime view really makes a huge difference as far making the picture watchable (i have on big shaded window that lets in a fair amount of light even with the shade drawn).

When you get that filter you will be blown away with the results. The filter makes a big difference.


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post #282 of 922 Old 06-17-2005, 03:39 PM
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Has anyone took advantage of and/or fooled around with the Capture feature of the Z3, that enables you to replace the Default "Sanyo" image at power on?

I've had this unit for 6 months and just yesterday realized the potential of this feature.

I designed a 3D image with some graphics and a "Welcome to ______ Theater" in big lettering in Photoshop, saved it as an image, burned in to a DVD, then played it on the Z3. When the image is displayed, I hit capture, and now everytime I power on the PJ (or hit the MY-P button on the remote), my custom Welcome message/graphic appears.

It really looks cool, and I'm not sure everyone is aware of how easy it is to personalize your HT using this method.

Apologies if this has already been mentioned here.
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post #283 of 922 Old 06-17-2005, 04:31 PM
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I captured a scene from Jack-Jack Attack on The Incredibles bonus disc. Looks very nice.

Okay, in my continuing need to further screw with my projector, I stopped by the photo shop of an old family friend and discussed the situation with him. I was looking for an 81EF filter, but he was out. Still, he had a box of used gel filters that I dug through. I like the results I'm getting from the CC20R filter, but I thought if I could just get a TOUCH more blue out of the blacks, I could open up the iris a bit more. So, he gave me a free Kodak CC10Y (yellow) filter to bring the blue down.

I put the CC10Y filter under the CC20R, did some more tweaking, and ME LIKEY! You have to bring up the blue and blue gain controls just a touch and readjust contrast and brightness to get the grayscale back in order, but it didn't seem to reduce overall light output enough to matter much. What it did do was make black BLACK. It seems that the combination of these two filters gets rid of enough blue for it to almost negate the light leakage from the panels. I'm still getting a high enough white level without clipping to be very watchable with some lights on, and it looks BRILLIANT with the room dark. I was able to open the iris up to -34 instead of the -38 I was at before and I still had darker black.

I saved the new settings to a different preset so I could quickly A/B the two (by sliding the CC10Y filter out and going back to Preset 1 - the settings I posted previously). By visual comparison, I definitely like this combination at first glance. I still need to spend some more time with it to be sure, but since I got the filter for free the price was definitely right.

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post #284 of 922 Old 06-17-2005, 06:08 PM
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i just got my 1db attenuator in today, so i will try that. i know boosting the contrast messes up picture accuracy... but it looks better when i have too much light in the room. are the blinds you are referring to listed as "room darkening" roller shades on that site?

i have a dvd player on the way that plays jpg files so i will be able to check some test patterns to see whether my misaligned green panel is tolerable or not. but i have to say picture tweaking makes a far bigger difference on the z3 than it did on the x1 (of course the z3 has more tweakability).
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post #285 of 922 Old 06-17-2005, 06:52 PM
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http://www.justblinds.com/products/blackoutshade.cfm
It's a well-made product, and they aren't kidding about it blocking 100% of light. The only light I get is leakage around the edges.

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post #286 of 922 Old 06-17-2005, 08:14 PM
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So here's the deal. My wife and I are going through basement and clearing out a bunch of stuff for a garage sale that we are going to have this weekend. Let me go back a little. My wife is an artist. I have used her opinion when it come to color and a other settings for my displays. Anyway we are cleaning up and looking through stuff from college when she finds a little 3x4 box full of contrast filters!

They are called Ilford Multigrade Contrast Filters. Each filter is 3x3 and has a number printed on it ranging from 00 - 04 going up in .5 units.

Anyone know what these are? I will do some looking around as I just found them and posted this message shortly after.


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post #287 of 922 Old 06-18-2005, 06:01 AM
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Hello chaps, I have been keenly following this thread and adjusting my settings accordingly with great results which have improved over XP Media Centers proprietary setup calibration for front projectors. I am now ready to get the filter (or filters it now seems!) as well.

I just wanted to ask a quick question. I have noticed that on the right side of my image I have a greeny tinge/hue and on the left side a kind of bluey tinge/hue but not in the middle. This is most noticeable on ligter image scenes.

One more question if i may, as I run over HDMI-DVI from a ATI HTPC is there any way of replicating the component red attenuation effect via PC settings?

Thank you.

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post #288 of 922 Old 06-18-2005, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sainthalo View Post

I just wanted to ask a quick question. I have noticed that on the right side of my image I have a greeny tinge/hue and on the left side a kind of bluey tinge/hue but not in the middle. This is most noticeable on ligter image scenes.

My guess is the iris setting is causing the color on the left side. What do you have it set at right now?


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post #289 of 922 Old 06-18-2005, 07:04 AM
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Johnny's correct - the more you close the iris, the more of a uniformity issue you will see. I don't notice it unless I turn it down into the 40's.

Saint, there supposedly is no red push on the HDMI input, so you shouldn't have to worry about it for that. The red push seems to only be an issue with the component inputs. Still, if you're seeing too much red from your HTPC, there should be plenty of controls to reduce it (including one in the ATI control panel if I recall correctly).

Oh, Johnny... contrast filters REDUCE contrast by using ambient light to brighten black. Probably not what you want to do on a projector.

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post #290 of 922 Old 06-19-2005, 05:06 AM
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Hi the Iris was on 53 but I now have it at 38 and the tinging has almost gone. Thanks i was getting nervous about it being a fault. Phew!

Incidentally following Jeremy's settings a few pages back for use with filter actually gives me the best picture even though i dont have a filter yet. The picture over s-video from my cable box is approaching RPTVish and is very bright and punchy now, of all the settings I have tried on avforums and avsforums, that is definitely the best setup. Must acquire filter!

Have noted there is a CC25R filter available also made by Lee. Would it be worth trying that or should I just stick to CC20R? I dont have SMART but have good visual acuity.

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post #291 of 922 Old 06-19-2005, 10:12 PM
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Honestly, after ROne's findings with the CC30R and my tweaking with the CC10Y filter added to the CC20R, I think the CC25R would do more harm than good. The CC20R ought to improve the picture nicely.

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post #292 of 922 Old 06-20-2005, 02:55 PM
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I got the CC10Y + CC20R and tweaked them up with smart.

Here's what I found:

Really nice crisp black (for lcd), all but knocks off that blue in low IRE as per Jeremy's suggestion. Skin tones look warmer as well.

You have to lift the iris, I've gone from -52 all the way to -15 (update now at -30 21/06) , it does seem to take away the light ouput somewhat.

There is no difference in contrast: I am constantly getting around a 1020:1 +/- 20 or so, no matter what you do with the gain or contrast with filters applied. I did an experiment with SMART and lifted all the gains to max, it made not a jot of difference to white level output. So there is no way you can get more contrast with a filter at the top end, or at least I haven't found it.

Did a measurement of CR with A1 lamp mode and filters, this came to 1320:1, close enough to suggest cinema4home used this mode. But you have the drone of the fan.

My numbers (a little disclaimer, they're not fine tuned but are close to my original d65 target)

Using Jeremy's combination of Powerful lamp mode + filters CC20R & CC10Y.

C: -1
B: 0
Colour temp: start with LOW1
R: 5
G: 2
B: 1
IRIS - 30
Gain R: 6
Gain G: -2
Gain B: 0
Offset R: -13
Offest G: 0
Offset B: -12
Gammas: 0,0,0
Lamp mode: LOW
Sharpness -7
HDMI: L1

using VMR on TT 2.1 -all defaults on radeon 9600, bar SAT -48

AE2000here.



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post #293 of 922 Old 06-20-2005, 10:17 PM
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I plugged in your settings and it worked nicely with the CC20R/CC10Y combination. However, I bumped RED down to 2 because the middle IREs on DVE's grayscale sweep were too pink for me. I'm also using about -28 on the iris with a gamma of -1. Looks really good! A slight improvement over my eyeballed settings.

I think that's about as much performance as we're going to squeeze out of the Z3. Much thanks for helping us noodle this through, ROne.

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post #294 of 922 Old 06-20-2005, 10:43 PM
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I think you're right, I don't think there is much more to go at, or at least maybe a few variations on a theme.

Last night I did a full run with the filters on to see how it checked out - SMART gave me a few tips of what to adjust and then I spot checked 10,20,40,50,70 IRE and made a few adjustments. Obviously one parameter effects the other so I need to go back through and do a full run to see how flat the overall balance is and do some fine tuning.

You could be right about that red though so maybe my last tweaks to 10,20 IRE did something to the rest ...

I also lowered the IRIS back to -30 after getting used to -15, when all my ambient light had dropped outside (I have black-out blinds but there is a bit of light leakage at the top.)

I think we should sit back and see if any other fellow tweakers can come up with anything!

Oh as an aside have you noticed that the filters help knock out VB completely?

AE2000here.



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post #295 of 922 Old 06-21-2005, 04:55 AM
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Well, I wasn't seeing any VB at all on mine... and I've been looking for it. I do notice, however, that screen door effect seems reduced with the filters in place even when I focus as tight as I can. It's like having those filters in the optical path just slightly blends the edges of the pixels. I don't see any decrease in the clarity of the picture, so I'll take it as an unexpected benefit.

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post #296 of 922 Old 06-21-2005, 09:52 AM
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So would the following summation be true?

The filters reduce black level but do not increase contrast
They also reduce/eliminate SDE and vertical banding.
Improve colours

Is there any other advantage to using the filters?

Conor
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post #297 of 922 Old 06-22-2005, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish_Comer View Post

So would the following summation be true?

The filters reduce black level but do not increase contrast
They also reduce/eliminate SDE and vertical banding.
Improve colours

Is there any other advantage to using the filters?

Conor

That's spot on - oh and the main reason to change the blue that pretends to be black to a much better black, in fact if I put my hand infront of the projector on a totally black screen and compare with the shadow, it's close enough.

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post #298 of 922 Old 06-23-2005, 02:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROne View Post

I got the CC10Y + CC20R and tweaked them up with smart.

Here's what I found:

Really nice crisp black (for lcd), all but knocks off that blue in low IRE as per Jeremy's suggestion. Skin tones look warmer as well.

You have to lift the iris, I've gone from -52 all the way to -15 (update now at -30 21/06) , it does seem to take away the light ouput somewhat.

There is no difference in contrast: I am constantly getting around a 1020:1 +/- 20 or so, no matter what you do with the gain or contrast with filters applied. I did an experiment with SMART and lifted all the gains to max, it made not a jot of difference to white level output. So there is no way you can get more contrast with a filter at the top end, or at least I haven't found it.

Did a measurement of CR with A1 lamp mode and filters, this came to 1320:1, close enough to suggest cinema4home used this mode. But you have the drone of the fan.

My numbers (a little disclaimer, they're not fine tuned but are close to my original d65 target)

Using Jeremy's combination of Powerful lamp mode + filters CC20R & CC10Y.

C: -1
B: 0
Colour temp: start with LOW1
R: 5
G: 2
B: 1
IRIS - 30
Gain R: 6
Gain G: -2
Gain B: 0
Offset R: -13
Offest G: 0
Offset B: -12
Gammas: 0,0,0
Lamp mode: LOW
Sharpness -7
HDMI: L1

using VMR on TT 2.1 -all defaults on radeon 9600, bar SAT -48


Did you leave the color level at 5 or did you turn it down to 2?
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post #299 of 922 Old 06-24-2005, 12:37 AM
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As I am on HDMI, there is no color setting in the menu.

I do though, lower saturation by -45 in Theatertek.

AE2000here.



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post #300 of 922 Old 06-24-2005, 05:34 AM
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For those using component, I'm using COLOR +3 and TINT +1. Avia says +2 on the color is right for mine, but DVE shows +3... and +3 looks slightly better to me. I give these settings only for general information, however, as these settings may vary from unit to unit. You should really evaluate and individually calibrate your projector yourself using a calibration disc, though the starting points posted here will help immensely with that.

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