PLV-Z3 Tweak Thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 922 Old 09-23-2005, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike.cf View Post

ROne, what kind of CR are you getting with the Spyder calibration?

Not done it yet, but previously with SMART I was getting 1100:1 in low lamp mode and about 1250:1 in the adaptive lamp mode.

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post #452 of 922 Old 09-23-2005, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROne View Post

The filters intend to darken and remove blue, that's what they do.

If you want more brightness with the filters in place then you have either lift your IRIS, or reduce ambient room light.

They may also knock of some sharpness, this has the happy side effect of reducing VB.

Unless you also have your PC connected to it, which has an unhappy side effect of blurry text.
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post #453 of 922 Old 09-23-2005, 03:53 PM
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How can all Z3's be the same?????

there are so many variables.

1. DVD player (progressive, Component, HDMI)
2. HD set top box.
3. Room.( Dark/Light.)
4. Cables. Cheap, expensive.
5. Movies, Pal, NTSC.
6. Screen.

I find it hard to believe we can all achieve the same picture quality, using the same settings.

Also we all see things differently, i say it's nice, you say it over saturated.

Not knocking this thread, but stating a cold hard fact.

Lets remember not many of us know we are doing, and after all the tweaking and adding filters, i simply find the picture to be shaper and clearer and more life like with nothing but a good tweak.

Thanks to Ron and Jeremy for the hard work.

Just my 2 cents worth.

GezzaZ3.
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post #454 of 922 Old 09-23-2005, 04:10 PM
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If anyone could consider sending one of those 1dB attenuators to me here in Sweden i can pay in advance with PayPal - Nowhere to be found here, even wellsorted places have no clue!

Contact me on joakimw@mac/dot/com (exchange /dot/ with a .) i'd love to try it out !
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post #455 of 922 Old 09-23-2005, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpyGuy311 View Post

Unless you also have your PC connected to it, which has an unhappy side effect of blurry text.

thats a halo effect nothing to do with PC as source. you need to adjust how your filters are fitted. when perfect there will be no halo. in fact Rone i think and me both have HTPCs with these settings. it really doesnt matter which source you use the filters will always help.

PS if you need them, filters

Sanyo Z3.5 (Z3+LEE Filters!) Email me for z3.5 filters/instructions
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post #456 of 922 Old 09-23-2005, 09:41 PM
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Red filters cuts blue and green, which leaves more red, then yellow cuts more blue

I think you are cutting too much blue out of the picture.

So you end up with Red 100%, green 70%, Blue 50%.

So now blue is the color that has less, then green, than red.

Then you add more blue and green in the tweak.

I find the colors less effective and the lens out of focus with the filters on.

When the filters are off the brightness increases and the colors do too, so does the sharpness.

i've watched a lot of movies recently, but, my big gripe is the skin color and the color of the sky. Now we all have an idea what skin should look like, some of us like pale looking skin, some like the suntan look, i like in between look. So on a close up they look awesome not pale and most shots shown they are all waring makeup, so unless they are sick then the skin shouldn't be pale.

It just doesn't look right. the rest of the colors look fantastic
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post #457 of 922 Old 09-24-2005, 05:46 AM
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I know what you mean, GezzaZ3. When I first followed the powerful settings that many people were saying looked so good, I found that everything looked way too yellow for 1 thing.

For anyone to follow another persons settings and expect their picture to look correct is just silly. If only it were that simple.

If you want your screen calibrated to the best picture, just pick up something like the Avia dvd. I got that and ended up with completey different settings.
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post #458 of 922 Old 09-24-2005, 05:56 AM
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What you say is true about cross using settings.

However AVIA will do nothing for color balance unless you have a way of reading grayscale.

AVIA on it's own will not allow you to make objective adjustments to RGB, offset or GAIN and these are critical adjustemets to getting colour balance (not saturation which avia can do) correct.

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post #459 of 922 Old 09-24-2005, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GezzaZ3 View Post

Red filters cuts blue and green, which leaves more red, then yellow cuts more blue

I think you are cutting too much blue out of the picture.

So you end up with Red 100%, green 70%, Blue 50%.

So now blue is the color that has less, then green, than red.

Then you add more blue and green in the tweak.

I find the colors less effective and the lens out of focus with the filters on.

When the filters are off the brightness increases and the colors do too, so does the sharpness.

i've watched a lot of movies recently, but, my big gripe is the skin color and the color of the sky. Now we all have an idea what skin should look like, some of us like pale looking skin, some like the suntan look, i like in between look. So on a close up they look awesome not pale and most shots shown they are all waring makeup, so unless they are sick then the skin shouldn't be pale.

It just doesn't look right. the rest of the colors look fantastic

The reason this is a problem is because you sound like you have no objective way of measuring you color balance.

The Z3 produces too much Blue at low levels, this a fact across the board, it's inherent in the panels.

So in this case the filters will help everybody, what you have to do though is get the rest of your whites, back to a reference point, and the "too Yellow" that you mention is down to your color balance (RGB) not being good at the top of IRE, around 90% peak white.

It's not so much the filters don't work (though I do admit there are some trade-offs) it's just that they are not set-up as best they could be for you, unless you have a way of referencing D65.

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post #460 of 922 Old 09-24-2005, 08:19 AM
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I wonder why rones settings work very good for me. I just input them then adjust brightness/contrast using bw reference calibration dvd+dve combo.

For component you ofcourse have to adjust color/tint and others (i have used jeremys settings for those values).
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post #461 of 922 Old 09-24-2005, 04:45 PM
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I have learnt a lot form this forum, for that i am grateful,

I do not have any calibrating equipment other than my eyes.

I lost my new DVE, so i can't even check BTB.

But i use 3 or 4 reference movies that i know very well.

I know what the scene should look like, the sky, the colors.

In reality we have all spent a sh*t load of money yet no of us have it professionally calibrated. WHY.

If we did get it calibrated, would we still complain.????


Is our HT worth the expense???

I think we all know it's not that hard, but they have the equipment and experience.

I saw the Z3 in a shop in a light controlled room, we saw the incredibles and Troy and then saw HD TV, i just said wow.

There was no filter and it looked fantastic.

Sometimes, we want what someone else has got, i just got xyz, then i get an xyz, then i tell the forum, then we all have to have them. It 's just the way we are.

Ron can you recalibrate without the filters????

I still can't see why the blue can be tweaked without the filter.

The blacks are black enough, i think if you talk yourself into it, you can see the blacks are not black enough.


Please try this at home, when you have friends over.

Find a bright scene, clouds, blue sky, people.

Then ask you friends does it look better with or without filters, all my friends said without, not one said with, no one thought the blacks were not black enough.


GezzaZ3

,
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post #462 of 922 Old 09-24-2005, 05:12 PM
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The color filters work great on a dark scenes, but on a bright scene they don't preform as well.

I think what i'm trying to say is this.

They are designed to correct a color imbalance, now thats meant to be a stationary picture.

So when you have a moving picture that has light and shade, very dark scenes and very bright scenes, they don't perform well. they work better in the dark scenes, when it come to the bright scenes, i see imperfection, in the sky, the clouds, people faces, color.

Now i watched a lot of movies with the filters on, i likes the dark scenes as it enhanced the darkness, but i also felt detail was missing, but i thought the blacks looked darker, but the trade offs to me are not worth it.

I 'll shut up now, just wanted people to make up their own mind,

If you like it the way it is, be happy, don't change it.

GezzaZ3
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post #463 of 922 Old 09-26-2005, 12:07 AM
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C: -25 (needed: couldn't get a decent color balance at the top without lowering)
B: -2
R: +4
G: -5
B: -1
Gain R: +8
Gain G: -5
Gain B: -9
Offset R: -15
Offset G: +5
Offset B: -2
Gamma R: -1
Gamma G: +2
Gamma B: +3

Some interesting stuff; these latest round of filter settings are my closest yet according to the spyder. 20IRE to 100IRE comes in at 6500 +/- 100. To get here though I have had to drop the contrast immensely. Contrast has dropped from 0 to -25, this seems drastic but you don't realise how much the powerful setting is skewing color balance at the top of the range. At 90IRE color balance is around 8000K with the previous settings, it could be that you choose extra punch over accurate color balance though.

Switching between them does reveal a nasty yellowish tint to the picture that I became accustomed to over the last few months.

It leads me to realise a few things: 1) That powerful is powerful but at the expense of bad color balance between 80-100 IRE, it looks like all the Green & Blue are in ample supply, but not red, no amount of tweaking could get red where it should be. 2) Maybe now I have accurate color balance I may be able to optimise it against contrast ratio. 3) If I went back to Creative Cinema as a preset I bet you that contrast doesn't need to be shifted so much as the white is less cocked up due to a better colour balance response in the CC preset.

That's all for now, will measure actual CR tonight if I get chance.

Will also do a D65 run with CC preset and no filters at some point.

AE2000here.


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post #464 of 922 Old 09-26-2005, 12:18 AM
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Hi ROne,

That would confirm the filters are causing some imbalance due to the settings you have just posted. Wow -25 Contrast!!!

Would love to see the spyder calibration settings without the filters using HDMI.

Pretty please, i think the results will be much better, just a hunch i have. I think it will be easier to pull into line also, the image is brighter to start with.

i 'll keep watching this thread.

keep up the good work.

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post #465 of 922 Old 09-26-2005, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GezzaZ3 View Post

Hi ROne,

That would confirm the filters are causing some imbalance due to the settings you have just posted. Wow -25 Contrast!!!

Would love to see the spyder calibration settings without the filters using HDMI.

Pretty please, i think the results will be much better, just a hunch i have. I think it will be easier to pull into line also, the image is brighter to start with.

i 'll keep watching this thread.

keep up the good work.

GezzaZ3

To be fair, the filters will cause an imbalance, the idea of using the spyder is to remove the imbalance (something that I couldn't do to easily before even with smart).

The imblance should be to effect the removal of BLUE at the bottom IRE to make it blacker which it as always done, and also to make the Green/Blue response at the the top end linear to the rest of the range, the Powerful preset just serves to hugely boost that top end. I can see why some people would like this though as your top end punch defines your contrast even if color balance is skewed and it's easier to live with than the converse.

I will do a run without filters on creative cinema at some point.

AE2000here.


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post #466 of 922 Old 09-26-2005, 07:53 PM
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OK guys I just got my Z3 today!!!! I shot a pic on the wall and was quite impressed with the pic. I need to order my screen but am unsure of which one to get, its going to be a CARADA 96"er, but I cant decide between BW, CCW, or HCG.
Anyways what do you guys think are the preferred settings for this display through the componoent inputs with a progressive scan player??

PS, I really tried to get through this thread but the settings got changed and I got lost!! LOL!!

Thanks all!!
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post #467 of 922 Old 09-26-2005, 07:55 PM
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Try just 3 posts above yours

~Dave

...Theater Room Setup...
JVC DLA-RS40-U... Oppo BDP-105D... Toshiba HD-XA2... Uverse VIP-2250... Roku Streaming Stick... Emotiva XPA-3... Onkyo TX-SR805
JBL LC2 (x3) ... JBL L820 (x6) ... SVS PB10-ISD (x2) ... SVS 20-39-PCI
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post #468 of 922 Old 09-27-2005, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROne View Post

To be fair, the filters will cause an imbalance, the idea of using the spyder is to remove the imbalance (something that I couldn't do to easily before even with smart).

The imblance should be to effect the removal of BLUE at the bottom IRE to make it blacker which it as always done, and also to make the Green/Blue response at the the top end linear to the rest of the range, the Powerful preset just serves to hugely boost that top end. I can see why some people would like this though as your top end punch defines your contrast even if color balance is skewed and it's easier to live with than the converse.

I will do a run without filters on creative cinema at some point.


Rone's latest settings are fantastic. they came just as I installed some new software called proshow on my htpc so i have made a proshow demonstration of rones settings past and present!!!

You're a genius Rone and this is in homage to your awesome progress tweaking the Z3 and shows the difference in quality to any doubting thomases.

Enjoy the show chaps:

http://rapidshare.de/files/5583473/sho_off.zip.html


Sanyo Z3.5 (Z3+LEE Filters!) Email me for z3.5 filters/instructions
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post #469 of 922 Old 09-27-2005, 12:31 AM
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Having a look now ...

The only problem I've got, is lack of contrast now . Bah!

Working on it though.

AE2000here.


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post #470 of 922 Old 09-27-2005, 12:38 AM
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Hi Saturday, welcome aboard.

Let get the screen out of the way first.

I was told the following, the darker the room (Full light control) the whiter the screen.

If you want to watch movies during the day, Grey is the choice.

I did a lot if research, please read the link from an Australian Screen Maker,

It explains a lot about gain, screen type.

I picked White and gain 1.1 which is for night time and perfect for me.

http://ozts.com.au/gain.htm

That should help.

Now lets clear up the second bit, the settings on this forum start off without the use of Color correction filters and 1db attenuator, then about 1/2 way through we all went out and bought them.

So please note most of the settings except the early ones from ROne are with filters.

I saved all the settings in my user spots, i like the second last one from Jeremy.

Here it is, Yes i use it without a filter, i am using HDMI via the DVD Player.

I took off my filters and i am much happier, but thats just me.

User 3
Start with Powerful
Contrast -1
brightness -2
color 1
tint 1
temp L1
red 0
green 3
blue 1
sharp -3
gamma -1
Theatre /black bulb.
iris -21
Grain R 0
Grain G 1
Grain B 0
Offset R 0
Offset G 2
Offset B 3
Gamma R 0
Gamma G 0
Gamma B 0
Auto Black on
Contrast E
Transient
Overscan

Hope this helps,

GezzaZ3.
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post #471 of 922 Old 09-27-2005, 04:13 AM
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Gezza, Thanks a bunch!! I look forward to trying the settings when I get home from work.

One other question.......which ceiling mount do you use??
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post #472 of 922 Old 09-27-2005, 04:33 AM
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Hi.

Been reading alot about filters etc. and was wondering if thats the way to go with my Z3....However, it sounds quite sofisticated with all those tweaks, so I was wondering if there's someone out there with some settings ideal for my setup?

I've bought the DVE calibration disc, but I find it hard to tweak it to perfection. I've read across boards on how to use it, but once I use those offset setting etc I find it hard to tell the real difference! Also using the supplied red green blue paper thingie seems challenging to tweak to perfection. Infact it seems the factory settings are quite alright as is - or I havent got a clue...?

I'm using a sony DVP 7700 player via component feed, and projecting onto a 0.80 gain grey screen at 86". Sitting about 11 feet from it.


I've tried that french component setting theres somewhere inside this huge thread and that looked ok I guess, but then I tried using the, I think it was called dynamic cinema, and got good results fromt that too.

So, is there anyone out there with super component setting using a similar setup as me? who are willing to give a few hints to a newbie?

Or should I just get some filters! hehe

All in all, I just wanted to make the best of my new Z3

Regards

Claus Linde
Denmark
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post #473 of 922 Old 09-27-2005, 08:54 AM
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Claus, You'll find that tweaking is not that easy especially without the measuring equipment. Using other people's setting will not always work because the room will be the main factor even though equipment are the same. Probably the best advice I got was from Jeremy which is to only adjust the brigthness, contrast, tint, color, color temp, sharpness (with the DVE I have). Having said that I have Jeremy's and ROne's in user settings for comparison and also have filters (7mos later). I also noticed was that my wife has a better color perception than I do...
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post #474 of 922 Old 09-27-2005, 09:15 AM
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Remember a few months ago I decided to try and find a pringles style lid to fit the Z3 and act as a filter holder over the Z3 lens?

FINALLY, SUCCESS!

I have prepared another little media file for anyone who is interested in how to do this - full instructions in widescreen so you can watch it on your projector!!!

I have also updated the "sho off" presentation (the one showing off my setup and all of Rones settings in use on a particularly dificult subject) to include footage of the new lens filter cap.

SETUP: http://rapidshare.de/files/5598772/sho_off.zip.html
FILTERS: http://rapidshare.de/files/5598199/sho_filters.zip.html

Sanyo Z3.5 (Z3+LEE Filters!) Email me for z3.5 filters/instructions
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post #475 of 922 Old 09-27-2005, 05:55 PM
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Hi Saturday,

Well i had a Infocus Screenplay 4800, i bought a new bracket, i sold the Infocus and kept the Ceiling bracket. It had a Triangle shape base with 3 holes, which didn't line up on the Z3. So i kept the top bit and made the bottom bit.

I then found some polished Aluminium strap 50mm wide and about 5mm thick, i made 3 lengths measured and drilled where the holes go. I had i look at the stores and couldn't justify another $200, $300, when i had all but the straps.

I would rather buy a DVD player or 10 dvd movies. Which i did, i bought a new HDMI dvd Player for $179.00AUD.

Now to the Filters, you know at first i was all for them, then i started noticing washed out scenes, which i thought might be the dvd quality.

Well i tried a scene in the incredibles, where the wife is in the plane with the kids, now the shot shows the plane, sky, the wife,white clouds, i paused this scene and removed the filters and wow it increased in brightness and clarity and color. Then i put the filter back on, and we all said yuk, it darkened the scene, it had a reddish ting and the white and blue seem to suffer the most, but only on bright scenes. I did think that dark scenes looked a bit better, but i don't think the lose of bright scenes is worth it. Now you know when your wife says its look much better with no filters, it must be better, as women seem to have a better sense of rational views, they don't care how or what you use, they will tell you the truth. I was so caught up in the whole filters thing, i wanted to believe it was the best picture.

So my filters are off at the moment.

GezzaZ3
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post #476 of 922 Old 09-27-2005, 07:31 PM
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OK I got all the settings in ( thanks again Gezza!) and WOW what an improvement. Yesterday I watched some of AVP with the factory settings and I thought that the pic was good but after putting in the settings the pic was GREATLY improved. Blacks are WAY better and brightly lit scenes "jump" right off the screen, and color is improved.
The only thing that I changed was the sharpness level, but I only bumped it up 2 notches.

Now onto the CARADA screen samples........the grey was just too dark for me and the white screens seemed to give the pic a blueish tinge. AAARRRRGGGHHH!!!! What screens are the rest of you using??
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post #477 of 922 Old 09-27-2005, 10:52 PM
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Hi Saturday,

try this test as i did, i used to project onto my wall.

I placed normal A4 copy paper on the wall and watch in amazement, that's when i knew i needed a screen.

Be careful with the screen Gain 1.0 to 1.1 is pretty standard, and the higher the number the brighter the image.

Too bright will decrease your viewing angle and image quality.

Not sure where your from, but, L.P morgan, Cinemax, are well liked here in Australia. I went with OZsceeens as they are locally made and ship to other parts of Australia and the world.

If your not happy try a different brand, there's one there with your name on it.


GezzaZ3
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post #478 of 922 Old 09-28-2005, 01:19 AM
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These will probably the last round of numbers for a while, (I'm starting to confuse my self!)

Anyway two sets of numbers:

ON both I started with Natural Preset (I wanted a flat start and less ramp of upper IRE).

You will need to turn down lamp and IRIS to suit, as well as calibrate B+C.

The good news is managed to get 6500 +/- 50 across the range with the filters and optimise contrast! To pay for this there is some funny stuff going off at 10IRE, and I can't do anything about it - it's sort of green!

As the Iris marginally effects colour balance you may need to experiment.

You will also notice huge difference in contrast setting compared to powerful; it looks like presets store how bright their brightest setting is in relation to the contrast adjustment. So 9 is not 9 on both powerful and natural etc.

None filtered first.

Start with Natural preset - turn down lamp, adjust sharpness and set IRIS. I have settled on -52 for Iris, as without the filters you need help to get rid of panel leakage.

Rone Natural 6500

C: +6
B: -1
R: +9
G: -2
B: -4
Iris: -52
Gain R: +15
Gain G: +3
Gain: B: -9
Offset R: -15
Offset G: +2
Offset B: 0
Gammas: all 0
Overscan: 0

That comes in at 6500 +/- 150


Rone Natural CC20R + CC10Y setting

Iris: -30
C: +9
B: -1
R: 12
G: +5
B: +8
Gain R: +10
Gain G: +3
Gain B: -9
Offset: R -13
Offset: G: +5
Offset: B: +7

And that one comes in +/-50 6500 from 20IRE to 100IRE.

I've got to say though as a disclaimer, my filters are wearing quite quickly, the bulb has also lost it's edge. So I am on the none-filtered versions now, and very punchy they are too.

Look at the way the Green and Blue are increased on the filtered version to bring it back into line ...

That's it for a while I need time to watch some films...

AE2000here.


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post #479 of 922 Old 09-28-2005, 06:18 AM
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ROne, How many hours do you have now? Just wondering since you noticed the bulb is losing it's edge.

On the maintenance side, how often do you clean the lens? I have never cleaned it but I guess it's time. A liquid & lens cleaner from an optical shop should do the job, right?

Lately, I've been watching more hdtv than dvd. I thought I was going to watch hd football only but there's been more primetime shows in hd. It's been good and I'm only using ota. I should stop messing around this pj before I get the look... again.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enier View Post

ROne, How many hours do you have now? Just wondering since you noticed the bulb is losing it's edge.

On the maintenance side, how often do you clean the lens? I have never cleaned it but I guess it's time. A liquid & lens cleaner from an optical shop should do the job, right?

Lately, I've been watching more hdtv than dvd. I thought I was going to watch hd football only but there's been more primetime shows in hd. It's been good and I'm only using ota. I should stop messing around this pj before I get the look... again.

Do you know what - I'm not sure! But the bulbs seems to dim quite a bit from the off in the first 10-20 hours and then stay steady for a while.

I will check and post.

As to lens cleaning - prevention better than cure, I've never touched the lens or needed to in 1 year.

That said I have a problem putting anything on the lens; perhaps a photographic shop could offer you some advice. Same with our camera lens' I hate touching them!

AE2000here.


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