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post #181 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 12:04 AM
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or compare to a Benq 8700+ or H77 or mitsubishi hc2000?
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post #182 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 04:41 AM
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Does someone know when the mt700 will be available in Europe, more precisely in Italy?
And about the price?
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post #183 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 04:47 AM
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Welcome to AVS, Abel and Yadiel

Catalog price in the EU is 3499. Please note we aren't allowed to discuss street price.

And it should be available before the end of the month.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
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post #184 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 05:46 AM
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Thank you Grubert for the fast reply excuse me for the question on the price
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post #185 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 08:20 AM
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I had time to sit down and compare the 4805 and MT700 side by side for 2 hours. I was feeding from my HTPC, driving each at their native resolution@60hz, ffdshow with gradual denoise and HQ denoise3d at DVD resolution, then scaled to native via Lanczos 2. MY MT700 has ~20 hours on it. My 4805 has ~160 hours. MT 700 was calibrated with OpticOne, 4805 is as is from factory. No ND filters on either. I watched just a few scenes from LOTR: FOTR EE on each. I had to quickly switch cables and reconfigure before viewing each pj. I watched both at ~1.9x screen width. Both were calibrated with with the DVE reverse gray ramp test pattern.

Scenes I used were:

1) Opening battle at Mount Doom
2) Isildur being ambushed/betrayed
3) Gandalf getting Bilbo to leave the ring behind (especially head close-ups)


A) Colors: color seemed very good and very close on both

B) Brightness: Seemed very close between the two. I can't tell by eyball which is brighter - I may hook up both via component splitter to compare half screens against one another. I think my previous thinking the MT700 was brighter was due to watching it at 1.5x.

C) Black level: I set both up to display black and compared the two at the same time. Black level is again indistinguishable, at least in a mostly white room.

D) Temporal dithering: MT700 has more noise on horizontal pans. I'm not sure if this is due to the 5x vs. 4x color wheel or better processing on the 4805. I noticed this on the first pan at Mount Doom with Sauron's army and during invisible Isildur's run through the shrubberies. This didn't really bother me when I watched these scenes without the immediate 4805 compare.

E) Rainbows: I'm not very sensitive to these, at least at 4x+, and not bothered by them when I do see them. For me, these were very rare on both and comparable in frequency.

Overall, if the 4805's throw works in your space and you sit at 2x screen width then it is the choice. I personally want to sit at 1.5x so a 720p DLP is for me.

My local Ultimate may have an XV-Z2000 that I'll try to look at on the horizontal panning. However this will be with a crap DVD player at the store.
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post #186 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 08:29 AM
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Can someone take a picture of the remote?

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four
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post #187 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 08:36 AM
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FlyingGimp,
I am assuming that you used a component connection from the HTPC? Are you able to try DVI? I would be interested in your comments on the horizontal panning noise over DVI.

Also, if possible, I would be really interested in hearing about how a 24Hz multiple input rate does with the judder test. Any general comments about how smooth horizontal panning is on the MT700 at 60Hz would be great as well.

thanks for all of the great info,
jeff
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post #188 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 09:06 AM
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Jeff, I used DVI to both the 4805 and MT700 - sorry I didn't mention this. As far as I know you can only get 1:1 mapping with these pjs via DVI. For the MT700 I'm using a DVI->HDMI cable.

So far I've tried a 1080@24fps setting that the Nvidia drivers had. This one worked on my LCD, but when I switched cables to the MT700, it crashed my PC hard. 720p@72hz failed to sync: got "HDMI(Unsupported)" on the MT700. So far I've not had a chance to search for a 720p@48hz timing. If anyone happens to have a timing for this, I'd be able to do it quicker.

BTW, when I fed 480i via HDMI from my HDTivo I got "HDMI(Unsupported)", so it appears that 480i over HDMI does not work (i.e. no digital DCDi deinterlacing).

My general impressions of horizontal panning on the MT700 is that there is a little extra dithering noise on small details (i.e. Sauron's army from a distance or the shrubbery branches when Isildur runs away). These backgrounds are a little blurry on the 4805 as well, so it's not a night and day difference. I do not remember seeing this on faces in a horizontal pan (i.e. Gandalf lighting the staff in Moria), but I did not view this last night. I'll watch this again with this artifact in mind.
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post #189 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 10:39 AM
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Flying,
thanks for the clarification - I think I read thru a little too quickly at first. seeing 'noise' being described, I just jumped to assuming component. It is a little disappointing to see the 4805 get the edge here - but I guess we are probably not going to find a perfect projector at this price point.

I would really like to be able to get rid of the 3/2 conversion judder that I see from running at 60Hz - I can (sort of) tolerate DLP dither/noise, but choppy pans really remind me that I am not watching film.

definitely would like to see one of these in action. somewhat tempted to just get one.

keep us updated...
-jeff
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post #190 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 12:31 PM
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I've attached some shots of the remote. I think it's all legible.

 

mt700remote_.zip 286.404296875k . file
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post #191 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 01:05 PM
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I intentionally never set up a 48hz frequency on the 4805 because I didn't want to get accustomed to not having judder (it doesn't bother me terribly at the moment). The 4805/7205/7210 throws and offsets are all horrible for my room. I think those are the only pjs that advertise judder-free refresh rates.

Have you messed with any SW solutions like reclock?

I will at some point also try this with a 480i component input to see if that helps the panning noise. I'm also curious how the pj's DCDi/scaler compare to the HTPC.

Setting the Noise Reduction after the 720p resize in ffdshow seemed to noticeably improve still images, but I can't really tell if it helps this problem since my current PC drops frames like crazy with this set.

Emailists - if you have or can rent Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring, perhaps you could comment on these scenes what you see on your setup relative to the Z2. If not, have you seen any horizontal panning noise?
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post #192 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 01:13 PM
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FG - i did a bit of searching, you might find this thread of some help

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...26#post4282326
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post #193 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 01:23 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by FlyingGimp
I will at some point also try this with a 480i component input to see if that helps the panning noise. I'm also curious how the pj's DCDi/scaler compare to the HTPC.

I would expect at least the deinterlacing to be better with the Faroudja. Since I don't use an HTPC, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there's a software-based deinterlacing solution that has per pixel motion adaptive deinterlacing like the Faroudja (and some others) does.

Enjoy!

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post #194 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 01:42 PM
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In the thread shigaloo pointed to (thanks shigaloo) there's mention of faroudja doing 48hz. It will be interesting to see if component 480i helps this on the MT700. I'm dying to try but my visiting relatives are staying in my ht/guest room, so no all night tweaking/investigation sessions.

DLPs also have a CWI setting to adjust colorwheel sync. Reports are that this helps on similar H77 problems. These are evidently much more obvious on the H77: clayface, which I have definitely not seen on the MT700 using the cited test scenes in the H77 thread.

MikeSRC - as a dealer any chance of you getting a service manual? I'm definitely interested in purchasing one.
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post #195 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 02:44 PM
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I am close to deciding between the MT700 and the Sharp 2k. Right now, based on what I am seeing (thanks FlyingGimp and emailists), the MT700 has the edge. Unless something drastic happens to change my opinion, it will be the 700.

Since this is my first time with a PJ, I am puzzled why this thing has been out and available for a week now and I still can't find it on the Toshiba site on it's "products" list. I can't believe that they just haven't gotten around to it. Anyone have an explanation why it isn't showing up on the Toshiba site?

Also, I believe it was FlyingGimp who posted the throw distance and offset table. That was extremely helpful.

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post #196 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 02:47 PM
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Chazmo,

Not to throw a monkey wrench in your plans, but if you've got a couple of weeks before you're actually ready to purchase, you may also want to consider the BenQ 7700. It has similar specs to the two you mentioned - although, of course, the proof is in the pudding, so to speak.

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post #197 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 02:54 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by FlyingGimp
MikeSRC - as a dealer any chance of you getting a service manual? I'm definitely interested in purchasing one.

Don't I wish. AFAIK, you have to be a service center to order one.

Enjoy!

Mike
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post #198 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 03:28 PM
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What bulb assembly is Toshiba using and have they quoted a life expectancy and MSRP yet?
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post #199 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 04:07 PM
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Chazmo,

Actually I wouldn't be surprised if they really just didn't get to it. Putting up new product/support updates can take a while depending on how their web team prioritizes things. With such a mammoth product line like Toshiba has I wouldn't be surprised that HT projectors are down on the list, particularly if they've only shipped hundreds to the US so far.

It was Grubert who posted the throw table.

MikeSRC,

The Nvidia filters are well regarded for deinterlacing and I believe they do motion adaptive in their Auto mode. It's probably not as good as DCDi. However I've not seen deinterlacing artifacts over a lot of movies on 4805: no combing and no low-res jaggies. I do see deinterlacing artifacts on my Sony HD CRT at 3x screen width quite often (low-res jaggies), so I think I'd notice them on my 4805. Of course most of what I watch has probably been properly flagged as film material. I do look forward to Secrets of Home Theater reviewing the Nvidia filters.

However the piece that makes it night and day and all worthwhile is ffdshow - the clarity is absolutely amazing.
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post #200 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 06:02 PM
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Thanks for the info FG.
The only motion artifacts I've seen have been on DirecTv HD, but I assumed it was their compressed signal. I'll check out LOTR with the Bravo and see if I get the same artifacts.

Regarding the bulb, it's not available yet, but the part number is TLPLMT70. Assuming it's similar to the MT500 bulb, it will be in the $400 neighborhood.

Enjoy!

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post #201 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 06:32 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by MikeSRC
I have noticed this as well. Due to the limited range of adjustment on brightness and contrast, a component feed above 480i crushes blacks if you can't adjust brightness and contrast on the video source. For example, my Panny RP-82 does not have piture controls on 480p, so there's no way to get the deepest blacks (below 20 IRE) with the MT700's adjustments. Switching to 480i solves the problem. However, if I feed the MT700 with a DVD player that has brightness and contrast adjustments available over 480p, I can get the deeper blacks. I'm noticing the same thing with HDTV over component as well. Using HDMI for the HD STB and 480i over component for the DVD player works great.

I'm going to check some other settings that I haven't gotten into yet to see if this can be addressed by the user.

I remember earlier discussion of BENQ PE8700 have white crush and black crush issues. Looks like MT700, being a brother to BENQ PE7700, still have this issue.

Maybe enter the service mode and see if you can tune down the Y/Pb/Pr gain and tune up Y/Pb/Pr bias to correct the white crush and black crush?

Try PE8700 service mode method to see if MT700 also uses the same way to enter its service mode.
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post #202 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 06:39 PM
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TzungILin thanks for that great tip. I hope it can be done.

It seems to me that the Pioneer DV-59i DVD player would be the perfect match for this projector? HDMI and a lot of adjustability.
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post #203 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 06:46 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by MikeSRC


There's something strange about the default brightness and contrast adjustments levels. I have to check into this further, but I believe the MT700 has a very small range of adjustment for brightness and contrast, which allows for fine adjustment, but may cause some surprise initially as you may need to change your DVD player from its default settings. As a result, blacks were crushed in the default setup, with everything the same below 20 IRE.

After calibration, perceived black levels do not seem as deep as my 4805, but I haven't compared the two with the ND2 filter removed from the 4805. For those using the TrueLife enhancement, increasing the level more than a click or two can add edge enhancement to the image.

I'll have more info and some comparisons with the 4805 and an H31 in the near future.

After FlyingGimp's comparison of MT700 to SP4805, MikeSRC, everyone is waiting for your comparison comments!!

Were you able to compare to Z2000 or H77, the under $4k but higher priced 720p models?
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post #204 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 06:52 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by MickB
TzungILin thanks for that great tip. I hope it can be done.

It seems to me that the Pioneer DV-59i DVD player would be the perfect match for this projector? HDMI and a lot of adjustability.

MickB,

If the signal is compressed in the video decoding stage, the external DVD source with adjustability won't help either.

The best way, and maybe the fundamental way, is to enter the service mode to correct the crushing issues.

Or stay with its HDMI input, which seems to be correct.
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post #205 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 06:58 PM
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Thanks TzungILin. I had just read the review of the 8700 on hometheaterhifi and saw exactly what you're talking about.

From Steve Smallcombe's review of the 8700:

"The Black Bars test on Avia is very good image for setting the brightness, as it presents two almost black moving bars that are just above or lighter than black. At the proper brightness setting, you should just be able to see the darker of these moving bars, and easily see the lighter one, thus assuring that shadow details are properly distinguished from black. However, using the progressive component input with the 8700 I was unable to see the darkest moving bar at any Brightness setting."

With the MT700 using anything higher than 480i over component, you can't see any bars.

I tried one method I'd found for the 8700 servcie menu, but it didn't work. I'm not sure it was correct though (just Menu-Power-Menu).

Regarding a comaprison, I'm kind of swamped between some beta-testing, the H31 and work, but I'll try to get something up this week. I've only seen the Z2000 and H77 separately and since they all use the same HD2+ chip, there's no way to compare them without having them in the same room as the MT700.

Enjoy!

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post #206 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 07:02 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by TzungILin
MickB,

If the signal is compressed in the video decoding stage, the external DVD source with adjustability won't help either.

It seems to be more a case of the brightness control range. With a Bravo D2 (that does have brightness and contrast adjustment on all resolutions via component), I can get the black bars to appear and properly set the black level.

Quote:


The best way, and maybe the fundamental way, is to enter the service mode to correct the crushing issues.

No doubt. That's what I'd really like to do.

Enjoy!

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post #207 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 07:09 PM
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Well I snuck away again do go upstairs and "do work". I may have implied this was "work work" but it was really "avsforum work". I think I've got the black clip/crush solved.

What you have to do is put a 480p source on and then go to Setup/NTSC Mode and select "Japan". When you switch to 720p NTSC Mode is unselectable, but if you set it to "Japan" in 480p then it stays that way in 720p.

My guess is that NTSC Mode: USA maps to 7.5 IRE setup while NTSC Mode: Japan maps to 0 IRE setup. Apparently ATSC 480p and 720p should have 0 IRE Setup. From a quick google search I got this quote from a WideScreen Review article on a Lumagen scaler:

>PDSTL (pedestal or setup) should be set
>to match the nominal black level (0 or 7.5
>IRE) of each input signal. The standard for
>composite and S-video signals is 7.5 IRE in
>North America. The black level for YPbPr
>signals is usually 0 IRE, which follows the
>EIA/CEA 770.2 standard, but it may be 7.5
>IRE on older DVD players. Some DVD players
>include an option for no setup, dark,
>or enhanced-black, which all refer to
>black at 0 IRE.

So far I have three test scenes for this (extremely hit-you-in-the-face obvious) problem:

1) 480p Xbox component Burnout 3 dark grey car had no detail and was too dark: getting the grey right with brightness blew out the rest of the image. Also a general feeling of missing detail.
2) 480p/720p HDTivo component HDNet test pattern: blacks obviously clipped - the "10" in the last box is never visible
3) 720p HDTivo component (didn't try 480p) HBO HD Deadwood: daylight scene, preacher with a dark suit: suit is a black mass - detail (buttons, folds, etc. all gone) is clipped, even when pumping brightness up to make blacks look gray

All of these were solved with the NTSC Mode set to Japan.

MikeSRC - could you try your Bravo HD over component to see if this solves what you're seeing as well?

BTW, there's no white crush on the HDNet test pattern. I'll verify the DVE reverse gray ramp when I hook up my RP-56 via component. At least BenQ only crushed/clipped blacks this time . Though to be fair Toshiba could have screwed this up.

TzungILin - good suggestion on the 8700 service menu: perhaps someone will be brave enough to go in and mess with the colorwheel sync to see if it helps horizontal pans. I'm personally not going to void my warranty.

EDIT: Forgot to mention all sources had a general feeling of missing detail/something wrong, which the NTSC mode: Japan fixed. Things now look like they in HDTivo component the same way they do in HDTivo HDMI. I'm now going to watch an HBO HD movie over component to get a longer look.
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post #208 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 07:20 PM
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Good stuff FG!

I was thinking about whether they had set something for NTSC that was causing the problem, but I expected it would affect 480i as well. I still think it's off, since just adding setup (black at 7.5 IRE) shouldn't cause problems of that extent. 7.5 IRE would still be distinguishable from 10, 15 or 20.

I'll check it out with both my Panny at 480p and the Bravo at 720 and 1080. I agree, there is no white crush issue with the MT700.

BTW, the BenQ 8700 service menu mode doesn't work. It uses a discrete "On" command that doesn't exist on the MT700 remote.

Enjoy!

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post #209 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 07:35 PM
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I don't know if I missed this, but, does the MT700 have a problem with color space when you use an upconverting dvd player at 720P or 1080i?
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post #210 of 2952 Old 03-21-2005, 07:58 PM
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Okay, setting NTSC mode to "Japan" gives you proper black levels for all resolutions above 480i. In fact, Brightness is just about right on at "0". I would still use a normal DVD player set for 480i as the proper settings will result in less dithering in blacks.

Set to "USA", the MT700 crushes everything below 17.5 IRE. With it set for "Japan", you have to get below 7.5 IRE before the change is imperceptible. It seems that the "Japan" setting is really the correct "USA" setting (with setup added) and the USA setting has an additional 7.5 IRE, setting black at 15 IRE.

Watching some true HD content at 720p was approaching the quality seen with the DVI feed.

Thanks for the discovery Mr. Gimp.

Enjoy!

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Reply Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

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