What would you like to see (realistically) in the next round of LCD?? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 03:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi there,

after the summer, it will probably be time for sony, panny, and sanyo to release their next versions of the hs50, ae500, and z3.

im wondering, what would people REALISTICALLY like to see in these next versions??

as a panny ae300 owner looking to upgrade .... my wishes for the ae??? would be...

1. two hdmi slots, like the new ps3 will have.

2. a redesigned menu system, the current one looks like it belongs on an atari 2600. lets have a nice flashy menu panasonic...!!

3. sealed mechanism, im just starting to get dust blobs on my ae300 and they are annoying me. stop dust blobs.

4. automatically closing lens cap... would save me and those with roof installations, the trouble.

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post #2 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 04:36 AM
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Rumour has it that the next Panasonic machine wil will have an auto iris feature and 2000:1 contrast ratio. It's gonna be called the AE700.


;)
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post #3 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 05:27 AM - Thread Starter
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while undoubtedly funny, what would you really like to see in these next three machines.... perhaps the engineers are watching....

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post #4 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 05:30 AM
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Yes, and it will also have VB and loads of it!!!

Seriously, for the next generation I expect 1080p to be standard (at least for the Sony anyway) since the PS3 will support it. VB will hopefully be thing of the past and screen door will probably be reduced even further, and contrast levels to hit the 3000:1 mark for the "budget" LCD projectors.

However, what would really be good though....

All of the aforementioned, plus overscan control, 23db fan noise as standard, a lens focus knob which will ACTUALLY have a middle area so users know that it's the area where it is 100% focussed (I've lost count of how many times I've thought I've focussed the image only to go back and move it more since I'm never sure), and a mechanism like the Z3 where users can open up and blow the dust off the lens directly. That would be SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEETTTTTTT!!!
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post #5 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 06:13 AM - Thread Starter
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seriously, you think that we might see 1080p as standard on these mid level projectors this year... im not so sure that we will....??

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post #6 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krlock2
3. sealed mechanism, im just starting to get dust blobs on my ae300 and they are annoying me. stop dust blobs.

krlock2
Just an FYI ... sealing an LCD block would be virtually impossible.
The about of air circulation needed to keep it cool, and the total size required, would knock it right out of the current category. The units would be huge and they would be noisy.
Hitachi had a nice presentation about the subject (cooling LCD blocks/sealed optics) on their website. If I can find it, I'll post a link.
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post #7 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
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thanks for the info eric....

its a shame, cause i would like to think that dust blobs could become a thing of the past.

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post #8 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 06:46 AM
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2.35 native aspect would be nice :)

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post #9 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 07:00 AM
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The one thing keeping LCD's from being as popular as LCD's...contrast ratio, contrast ratio, contrast ratio. Get the CR's up to 3000:1 or 4000:1......so they actually project a deep enough black that people arent' always going "why is that grey" when it should be black.

Everything else is already in LCD's favor....no rainbows, hundreds if not thousands less than compariable HD-quality DLP's, lens shift in more models than DLP's........its the black levels and contrast ratios that kill them, IMHO.

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post #10 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 07:19 AM
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Didn't some manufacturer just anounce that contrast of 10000:1 would be possible with LCDs?

So, I would want a contrast of say 8000:1, a resolution of the full 1920x1080, remote controlable zoom and lens shift, USB socket to directly stream from the computer :), WLAN for video and still images, two HDMI and one DVI socket and a water cooler or some other silent cooling system.
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post #11 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT-Naimee
Didn't some manufacturer just anounce that contrast of 10000:1 would be possible with LCDs?

So, I would want a contrast of say 8000:1, a resolution of the full 1920x1080, remote controlable zoom and lens shift, USB socket to directly stream from the computer :), WLAN for video and still images, two HDMI and one DVI socket and a water cooler or some other silent cooling system.

hmmmm.... back to the real world, i dont think that all of those will be available in the next range of mid range pj^s ... but we can always dream ....

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post #12 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 07:49 AM
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HeadRusch...score
HT-Naimee...all in good time (what a wish list)

"The one thing keeping LCD's from being as popular as LCD's...contrast ratio, contrast ratio, contrast ratio. Get the CR's up to 3000:1 or 4000:1......so they actually project a deep enough black that people arent' always going "why is that grey" when it should be black.

Everything else is already in LCD's favor....no rainbows, hundreds if not thousands less than compariable HD-quality DLP's, lens shift in more models than DLP's........its the black levels and contrast ratios that kill them, IMHO."

Yep...the achilles' heel.

"Didn't some manufacturer just anounce that contrast of 10000:1 would be possible with LCDs?

So, I would want a contrast of say 8000:1, a resolution of the full 1920x1080, remote controlable zoom and lens shift, USB socket to directly stream from the computer , WLAN for video and still images, two HDMI and one DVI socket and a water cooler or some other silent cooling system. "

What's next, liquid nitrogen?

Reasonable and realistic? Worry about the CR. That would keep LCD in the game.
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post #13 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 07:59 AM
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Well, personally the LCD to me has two other sideeffects, too.
For one, most of them are greenish on one side and redish on the other. This is not visible during most colour movies, but during b&w it can be quite noticable and applies to most LCDs. Z3 of course has it too. Only the amount varies.
And I personally find the, well, I don't know what it's called in english...the thin black lines due to the pixels. Well, you can see the pixels on LCDs. No matter how small they get, you still notice them a bit.
DLP just seems to make a smoother picture withouth being unsharp.

And of course the non-black-blacks, which IMHO is the smallest problem due to masks and variable borders on newer screens.

I would realistically like to see 1080, one HDMI and one DVI slot (in addition to SVideo, FBAS, Scart...yes...the europeans....:)...and VGA), if possible some kind of network capability (mabye a WLAN upgrade and a built in LAN socket?). And most importantly I would really like to have silent vans or some different way of cooling the bl**dy pjs. A hush box is not really an option for the average punter buying a low budget pj.
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post #14 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
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in my opinion, LCD is well in the game... even with the ae300 i have, i am still stunned at the bang for the buck.

with the ae700 and sony hs51, i think lcd achieved an excellent contrast ratio.

nevertheless, there is always room for improvement.

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post #15 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 08:02 AM
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Well, I think even the Sanyo Z3 is inadequate.
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post #16 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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lets not forget what these things CAN do, by the way..... just last night, i looked out of my window, and once again, as many times before, someone is standing on the street watching me watch The West Wing, his jaw on the floor....

not the first time.... i must stop forgetting to close the curtains... haha.

this thread was noit designed to become a thread so much about current problems, as what could reasonably be the next step this year.

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post #17 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 08:10 AM
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OK then, full 1920x1080. Everything else is just error correction. There is nothing else. Contrast is error correction, same for the colour problems.
So the only thing left would be a fully automated pj (lens shift etc. all remote controlable) and a new ventilation design.
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post #18 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 08:22 AM
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almost all of the above:D

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post #19 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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i have to say that i agree , remote control lens shift and zoom, with remote control lens cap, would be sweet as hell ....

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post #20 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 08:25 AM
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Oh, something really important to me: longer life expectancy. I.E. lamp-lifetime of about 5000hours or more.
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post #21 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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do you think it is possible that sony`s replacement for the hs51 later this year will have 1920 x 1080 ?????

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post #22 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT-Naimee
OK then, full 1920x1080. Everything else is just error correction. There is nothing else. Contrast is error correction, same for the colour problems.
So the only thing left would be a fully automated pj (lens shift etc. all remote controlable) and a new ventilation design.
With Epson's d5 LCD panels in the works, that seems doable. But, I'd forgo more resolution for better CR anytime. Now...what about that 10,000 to 1?

BTW, here's Epson's news release:

"Newsroom Home Newsroom Archive: 2005 2004 October 18

News Release
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Epson Announces True-HD 1080p LCD Panels for 3LCD Projection Systems


- TOKYO, Japan, October 18, 2004 -

Seiko Epson Corporation ("Epson") today announced that it has completed development work on its D5 series of true-HD-ready high-temperature polysilicon (HTPS) TFT liquid crystal panels for 3LCD-type front-projectors and large-screen HDTV LCD projection televisions for the home. Epson will start shipping development samples of the new panels in October 2004 and plans to begin shipping the panels in production quantities in May 2005.

Epson, which developed the new D5 series expressly for consumer markets, sought to enhance brightness by increasing the aperture ratio and also to maximize contrast and resolution. Responding to demands from the consumer market for even better picture quality and lower prices, Epson announced in June that it had developed its first panel in the D5 series: a 0.7-inch, 720p model. Now joining the D5 series lineup is a 0.9-inch, 1080p model designed for true-HDTV systems. This latest addition to the lineup will allow users to enjoy true-HDTV picture quality on projection systems employing the 3LCD design, which uses three HTPS panels.

Features of the newly developed panel in the D5 series

High resolution
A 10-micron pixel pitch in a 0.9-inch, 1080p panel enabled by high pixel density fabrication technology
• The same resolution as the earlier 1.3-inch, 1080p liquid crystal panels in the D4 series, but in an even smaller-size (0.9 inch)

High contrast
The higher contrast was achieved by using a new addressing scheme
• 20% higher contrast than our earlier 1.3-inch, 1080p panels


The panels in the D5 series offer enhanced brightness at the same lamp power and the same resolution in a smaller form factor than earlier D4 series panels, thus enabling bright, compact projection systems that are easier on the environment and provide outstanding picture quality at a high performance-to-cost ratio.


Sample specifications
Comparison of the D5 series panels to earlier D4 series 1080p panels


Previously developed D5 panel Newly developed D5 panel Earlier 1080p panel (L3D13U)
Technology D5 D5 D4
Effective pixels 1284 x 724 (720p) 1920 x 1080 (1080p) 1920 x 1080 (1080p)
Screen size (diagonal) 0.7 inch (1.8 cm) 0.9 inch (2.3 cm) 1.3 inch (3.3 cm)
Pixel pitch 12 microns 10 microns 15 microns
Aperture ratio 60% 51% 58%
Contrast 750 : 1 600 : 1 500 : 1

Details about the technology used in the new D5 series will be presented at FPD International 2004, which will be held at the Pacifico Yokohama convention center from October 20 - 22.

Click here for more details about Epson projectors and projection technologies.
Click here for more details about liquid crystal panels from Epson.

About Epson
The Epson Group increases its corporate value through its innovative and creative culture. Dedicated to providing its customers with digital image innovation, its main product lines comprise information-related equipment such as printers and projectors, electronic devices including displays, liquid crystal panels for projectors, semiconductors and quartz devices, and precision products such as watches. Epson products are known throughout the world for their superior quality, functionality, compactness and energy efficiency.
The Epson Group is a network of 84,899 employees in 110 companies around the world, and is proud of its ongoing contributions to the global environment and to the communities in which it is located. Led by the Japan-based Seiko Epson Corp., which is listed on the First Section of the Tokyo Stock Exchange, the Group had consolidated sales of 1,413 billion yen in fiscal 2003.

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post #23 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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lamp life on the panny are already around that level i believe...

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post #24 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMRA
With Epson's d5 LCD panels in the works, that seems doable. But, I'd forgo more resolution for better CR anytime. Now...what about that 10,000 to 1?

whoa, i think a lot of people would be very very happy if this autumn we started seeing affordable 1080 native ..... me included.. !!!!

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post #25 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 09:05 AM
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Lamp life is about 2k hours average I believe.
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post #26 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 09:14 AM
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Well, since I own the AE-700 I will comment directly about the Panny.

I would like to see a more crisp picture with the next unit.
Perhaps a happy medium regarding smooth screen technology or the ability to turn it off. If it was somewhat toned down, I would probably never turn it off, but the option would be nice.
Better blacks would be nice, this is true for all LCD's though. ;)
Vertical banding has not been bothersome on my unit. I think I have been extremely lucky. However, as much complaining on the subject as I have heard, it would seem Panisonic needs to address the issue.
Colors are great, but hey there is always room for improvement! :D
Another note to Panisonic... keep the current throw capabilities the AE-700 now possesses!!!

As far as Sony's next unit, I would like to see a brighter picture and much less screen door. Maybe they need to incorporate Panisonics smooth screen technology into there next unit. Also, they need more flexibility with throw capabilities. The AE-700 blows the sony away in this category.

I don't think 1080P is a practical request at this price point for this year, but hey... while we are dreaming. :)

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post #27 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 09:35 AM
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I'm waiting for the D5 based Panny for my first proj upgrade (got an old-but-still-going-strong 711xu). So I haven't actually seen an AE700 in operation but I hope the next generation has:

Keep the Same:
Same price (~2k street)
Same resolution - 1080p would be nice, but I expect that in a higher end projector first. 720p is all I need for quite a while.
Same (or better) lens shift/throw options.
Same front venting. Between this & the lens shift, I plan to have my next proj almost fully recessed into the wall (into the kitchen cabinet on the other side of the wall.

Improve/Add:
>2500:1 CR. More is better of course, but anything will be a major improvement over my 400:1 rated business projector.
~1000 real, calibrated lumens (probably about 1600 rated lumens). I want a big 144" screen with a lot of pop.
No VB. This one's a big one for many people, and though I haven't seen it to see how it affects me, it needs to be fixed.
HDMI with no cropping etc. AE700 still (I think) has cropping issues.

Don't want (mostly for cost control):
Power zoom/lens shift
1080p - I'd rather have a 720p for $2k than a 1080p for $4k (which is probably more realistic)

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post #28 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 10:02 AM
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I wonder if the adding a black LCD panel to the RGB would improve contrast ratio. It would certainly help with B&W movies.

Keep the price under $2K
Inexpensive replacement bulbs

BTW, the folks at Best Buy said the popularity of projectors is on the rise and they are adding more projectors to their lineup in the coming year.
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post #29 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 11:09 AM
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" sony`s replacement for the hs51 later"

I read yesterday that the HS51 was going to be carried over through next year, to be replaced by a BiNa model.

Ah, it was here, post #4

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=546077

Noah
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post #30 of 104 Old 06-06-2005, 11:26 AM
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Trying for realistic improvements - in next year's models -

Get rid of the vertical banding and color uniformity issues - please!

Fix the cropping / overscan issues from the HS51 and AE700- preferably by including an easy-to-use overscan adjustment like the Z3. We should be able to get 1:1 pixel mapping via HDMI out of the box, without jumping through hoops.

2 HDMI connectors would be nice, with separate picture adjustments for each.

Whichever manufacturer comes closest will sell a ton of projectors...

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