Mitsubishi HC3000 MSRP $2,995 - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 3493 Old 09-21-2005, 08:13 PM
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True, Not dismissing totally just moved lower on my list....

I will try to review all i can before I make a purchasing decision...

You cannot dispute the evidence of an intelligent creator! Take a glass, some milk, some chocolate syrup and set them all on your counter. Now call me when it becomes chocolate milk all by itself.... Also, I want to be there when you drink it :-)
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post #182 of 3493 Old 09-21-2005, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ches111 View Post

Mitsu ----- Are you Listening?


I'm sure Mitsubishi is listening, but it's not what they can do to change that.

Without a DC3 WXGA DMD from TI, how can any company produce a DC3 WXGA product? So, we should put more pressure on TI, the DMD maker, not the system maker. TI is simply protecting the current DC3 makers, whose MSRP is still over $10,000. I won't be surprised to see TI finally offer DC3 treatment to WXGA, but that myabe 2006 Q3 time frame for the 2nd generation WXGA DMD.

For now, the most affordable DC3 is still H78DC3, unless BENQ decides to do something drastically on their PE8720 ...

Back to HC3000, I wonder how does it compare to MT700/PE7700, assuming price very similar?

1. MT700/PE7700 is HD2+ DC2, 0.78", bigger mirror, HC3000 is DC2, 0.65", smaller mirror, but more resolution.
2. Both are LVDS driver, DDP3020 maybe faster load time than DDP1010?
3. HC3000 has Brilliant Color (it works, I saw the demo at CEDIA), MT700/PE7700 does not, although the image is already very good
4. HC3000 uses DDP3020 deinterlacing/scaling (?) vs. MT700 DCDi

If DDP3020 load time is faster than DDP1010, then HC3000 may have less PWM effect? But DCDi on MT700 is definitely better than DDP3020 (or is it?)

We will only know for sure when HC3000 hits the market in November?
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post #183 of 3493 Old 09-21-2005, 10:26 PM
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This is disappointing news about the Mits. I have a NEC PG9+ and an XG 110LC CRT projectors (don't tell the CRT guys I was over here). I was watching this Mits closely, because I have a decision to make on whether to retube the XG or sell it. I will look in the direction of the Panny now. If it can come close to my XG, then I may lean that way. I may also live with the PG (it is still in great condition) and see what happens at CES. Any way you slice it, I will probably make the switch once DirecTV makes me get a new box.

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post #184 of 3493 Old 09-21-2005, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TzungILin View Post

If DDP3020 load time is faster than DDP1010, then HC3000 may have less PWM effect?

Reminds me of the time when I was trying to run Windows XP in a Pentium II machine with 64MB onboard ram memory and encountered the worst performance. Without faster DC3 chip the performance improvement of DDP3020 (or DDP3030?) over DDP1010 will be limited.
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post #185 of 3493 Old 09-22-2005, 08:48 AM
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I am unsubscribing from this thread. What does this pj now offer that justifies it's price?
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post #186 of 3493 Old 09-22-2005, 09:28 AM
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The review says it has less motion artifacts than other Hd2+ machines, it has the contrast of a H77, and it handles banding better than a H79 according to Eckhart?

Those are great leaps on a non-DC3 machine, but the price point needs to be 2200-2500 to be competitive moving forward.

TJ
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post #187 of 3493 Old 09-22-2005, 09:43 AM
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Without a DC3 WXGA DMD from TI, how can any company produce a DC3 WXGA product? So, we should put more pressure on TI, the DMD maker, not the system maker. TI is simply protecting the current DC3 makers, whose MSRP is still over $10,000. I won't be surprised to see TI finally offer DC3 treatment to WXGA, but that myabe 2006 Q3 time frame for the 2nd generation WXGA DMD.

Then, TI should be prepared to take a major hit on their market share. If the D5 lcd projectors live up to their expectations, I expect a lot of DLP fans to switch over.

If I know one thing about marketing people ... it is that they hate to lose market share (much more than they hate losing money). So, I do expect some quick MSRP revisions ...

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Originally Posted by nightfly85 View Post

I am unsubscribing from this thread. What does this pj now offer that justifies it's price?

Perhaps they think, the Mitsubishi brand name can fool us
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post #188 of 3493 Old 09-22-2005, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tehotaone View Post

The review says it has less motion artifacts than other Hd2+ machines, it has the contrast of a H77, and it handles banding better than a H79 according to Eckhart?

Eckhart may very well received a machine with darkchip3. I don't understand how Eckhart missed DC2 for DC3 either.
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post #189 of 3493 Old 09-22-2005, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kosha View Post

Eckhart may very well received a machine with darkchip3. I don't understand how Eckhart missed DC2 for DC3 either.

He only previewed a sample for a couple days, so I doubt he could take the thing apart.

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post #190 of 3493 Old 09-22-2005, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubert View Post

He only previewed a sample for a couple days, so I doubt he could take the thing apart.


Yes, actually we only had it for one day. That is why we mentioned several times that this was just a preliminary test with first impressions and results. It wasnt the final version either (as mentioned in the review).

About the chip, this is the first time this chip finds its way into a homecinema projector. All technical specs we got from Mitsubishi mentioned DC3. And yes, we did not have the time to disassemble the machine ;-)

And the first impressions and results we had were all very promising. So I dont understand why a "2" or a "3" in the technical data makes such a big difference for the value you get for your money.

IMHO it should be about the picture quality and not about marketing names of TI. :-)


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post #191 of 3493 Old 09-22-2005, 06:33 PM
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I have read somewhere that darkchip2 were introduced together with fast track pixel technology. Can someone verify whether this WXGA darkchip2 uses FTP or not.
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post #192 of 3493 Old 09-22-2005, 06:51 PM
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I am still holding out hope it is a darkchip3.

The TI guys gave me the impression that all their newer .65 DMD's that could use the 3020 chip all used the Darkchip 3 enhancements. Maybe the confusion is that it is called HD2+ Darkchip 3.

If it is a typo then the US Mits guys and the German Mits guys and the Australian guys also got it wrong on their spec sheets. It wouldn't shock me that the Mits sales managers could still make a mistake (maybe?)

The darkchip 3 enhancements are all manufacturing based improvements and the HC3000 DMD is based on a new production DMD. It doen't make sense to me that they would fall back to darkchip 2 processes.

The Japanese site earlier posted stated 4000:1 improvements, those were the Darkchip 3 marketing points.

I still can't wait to see this thing, but I will be disapointed if the DMD fell back to darkchip 2 enhancements.

Are there any other front projectors out there that use a 720p chip with darkchip3 with 1280 x 768 resolution? TI has only one of these dual use chips in their inventory.

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post #193 of 3493 Old 09-22-2005, 07:11 PM
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The reasons I am hung up on hd2 to dc3 are not for the "latest and greastest" perspective.

I have read that the DC3 is significantly better in the areas of 1 chip panning artifacts, they have a better fill rate, and for the same lamp source they squeeze out higher brightness and have a better dynamic range.

Hell call it DC1 and hit these points of interest and I would buy it...it's not about the name, it just happens to be the name of the chip that meets my requirements.

TJ
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post #194 of 3493 Old 09-22-2005, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty View Post

I am still holding out hope it is a darkchip3.

The TI guys gave me the impression that all their newer .65 DMD's that could use the 3020 chip all used the Darkchip 3 enhancements. Maybe the confusion is that it is called HD2+ Darkchip 3.

HD2+ = DarkChip 2, so I doubt they would use the two together.

Quote:


If it is a typo then the US Mits guys and the German Mits guys and the Australian guys also got it wrong on their spec sheets. It wouldn't shock me that the Mits sales managers could still make a mistake (maybe?)

I agree, except that this came from the Product manager, not the sales manager. That being said, I had a Panasonic product manager tell me a few years ago that the Panasonic S97 DVD player absolutely would not be using Faroudja deinterlacing, even though all the product specs sheets and brochures said so. They even changed their press release to leave out the Faroudja reference after he told me that. Of course, three months later the DVD player hit the market and lo and behold, it had Faroudja. Go figure.

The thing is that every press release and spec listing on that 1280 X 768 DMD lists it as DC2.

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post #195 of 3493 Old 09-22-2005, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty View Post

I am still holding out hope it is a darkchip3.

The Japanese site earlier posted stated 4000:1 improvements, those were the Darkchip 3 marketing points.

I still can't wait to see this thing, but I will be disapointed if the DMD fell back to darkchip 2 enhancements.

Are there any other front projectors out there that use a 720p chip with darkchip3 with 1280 x 768 resolution? TI has only one of these dual use chips in their inventory.

Mitsubishi HC900 576p projector already claiming 4000:1 last year, using a Darkchip2 1024x576 DMD (same DMD as used in Optoma H57). Their 4000:1 peak On/Off ratio is based on the brightest white when IRIS is full open vs. darkest black when IRIS is tightly closed, but their IRIS is not auto like HS50. THat is what gives HC900 the 4000:1. Based on the same engine/ID/optical system, with the same DMD size, no wonder HC3000 claims the same contrast ratio. So, 4000:1 does not say much about which chip they are using. SHARP Z10000 HD2+ machine used to claim 5500:1 contrast ratio, is it a DC3? NO! Just again use the IRIS to achieve better spec on paper. (I"m not discounting Z10000, which is a very nice projector)

Again, like I said, unless TI has a DC3 WXGA DMD, no manufacture can produce one. And IF, a big IF, TI has this new WXGA at DC3, wouldn't you think that many if not all DLP manufacture will flock to use this new DC3 WXGA?

I believe many more manufactures will be announcing WXGA DLP video soon, so stay tuned!
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post #196 of 3493 Old 09-22-2005, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post


IMHO it should be about the picture quality and not about marketing names of TI. :-)

I certainly agree with this.

If DDP3020 and the new WXGA chip somewhat provides faster loading technology, than its HD2+ or DC3 counterparts (which all used DDP1010), together with Brilliant Color, they may provide some nice pictures and better images to those that are sensitive to panning artifacts. Nevertheless, if the price point is right, this combination (DDP3020 + WXGA) could be a star in the sub-$3000 projector, be it DC2 or DC3.

Of course, I would love to have a DC3 version of WXGA with DDP3020/Brilliant Color, but maybe that's too much for high priced DC3 projectors to handle? If TI does that this year, I beleive there will be many unhappy dealers and/or manufactures who enjoys the DC3 margins now in the market place.

I still look forward to TI to release a 2nd generation WXGA with DC3 next year around CEDIA.
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post #197 of 3493 Old 09-22-2005, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TzungILin View Post

Mitsubishi HC900 576p projector already claiming 4000:1 last year, using a Darkchip2 1024x576 DMD (same DMD as used in Optoma H57). Their 4000:1 peak On/Off ratio is based on the brightest white when IRIS is full open vs. darkest black when IRIS is tightly closed, but their IRIS is not auto like HS50. THat is what gives HC900 the 4000:1.


No, the white segment in the color wheel gave it a high on/off contrast. Actually, the HC900 is capable of 3400:1 WITHOUT changing the IRiS.



Quote:


Based on the same engine/ID/optical system, with the same DMD size, no wonder HC3000 claims the same contrast ratio.


Nope, the HC3000 sample we had was capable of 3600:1 WITHOUT white segment (it doesnt have one) and WITHOUT changing the IRIS...


Of course as usual.. these figures are not at 6500K....


Regards,
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post #198 of 3493 Old 09-23-2005, 06:49 AM
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Mitsubishi has destroyed me with this one. I have had my "focus" on the 7205 for some time now. Well, I'll get back to that in a minute.

I really like Mitsubishi as I have been using the XD50U "minimits" for a year now in the harshest environment. I am currently serving in Iraq and I use this PJ everyday. During the day I occasionally give briefs on it. On the average, I watch at least 1 movie per night. Sometimes, I set up a board outside my housing unit and view movies with other soldiers. That thing gets full of sand and dust like you would not believe. That PJ has never let me down. It has been a morale lifesaver for me. Many soldiers, like me, are planning to put together home theaters when we return in November. This is based on the experiences we've had with the XD50U.

So, when I started looking for a PJ, the first PJs I considered were Mitsubishis. As I did more and more research, I found that I wanted a 16:9, DLP, WXGA projector for SDTV, HDTV, DVD, PC, games, the works. My price range was and is under $4000. I was sad to see that Mit did not have one. My searching came to rest on the IF 7205.

Having my heart pretty much set on the 7205, Mitsubishi introduces this HC3000. Talk about a monkey wrench! WOW! This is going to be a real nail biter for me. They are comparable in price. Contrast of the Mit is almost double. Most of the other stats are in line with the 7205. I am trying not to get too excited. I really hope this PJ is released soon so I can hear what people have to say about it. I don't want to toss the 7205 away as I believe it has proven its worth, but I can't ignore this new PJ because of my attachment to this company and their product.

I was a little taken back by the DC3 controversey, but it must not make that much of a difference in my opinion. If it did, the people reviewing the PJ would have said "this doesn't measure up to other DC3 PJs" If you can't immediately tell the difference between watching a DC2 and a DC3 PJ, then what's the advantage besides saying I have a DC3 and you don't? I'm not paying the extra cash to be able to say that. In fact, some said the 3000 out performed DC3 PJs in some ways.

Price.. I am still unclear on what the MSRP is on this PJ. I imagine that it will be comparative to other 720p, DLP machines. Even at $3500, it is less than the 7205. It is not fair to compare the 3000 to PJs with less resolution.

I can see why lens shift would be important to a couple of people, but it shouldn't be an issue for most. I will simply set it up, see where the picture is shining, and then put the screen there. DONE! Maybe I'm oversimplifying this, but it seems to be a waste to have a feature that you use once.

When I look at reviews of PJs from Mit with the same design, I see lots of happy owners. That doesn't mean that the 3000 will be the same, but it shows a good track record.

So, that is where I am in my decision making process. Any words of wisdom that could help me in this process would be greatly appreciated.

-----------------------------------------
I have 2 concerns at this time........

Why is there a filter in this PJ? All of the other Mit PJs that are similar in design do not have filters. Is the light engine not sealed? If not, that would be major.

The HC3000 is not 1080p compatible like the 7205 is (small concern).

Have a good day!
-Rob

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post #199 of 3493 Old 09-23-2005, 07:43 AM
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Unless I am wrong, one of the greatest advantages of a DC3 over Hd2+ machines is
the DC3 chip has a faster mirror speed for much smoother pans and fill rate.

I have read that all Hd2+ machines have panning issues.

I unfortunately see it and I am very bothered by it, it is almost bad enough that action movies are a chore to watch.

Hopefully when i finally get my Dc3 machine I find that issue resolved.


but Eckhart ( who probably has the best and most unbiased reviews out there) has said the Hc3000 prelim model has made great strides and draws a superior comparison in some regards to the H79..which is a huge statement


TJ
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post #200 of 3493 Old 09-23-2005, 08:23 AM
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Strange.. Using that XD50U, I've watched many action movies with about 15-20 soldiers.

1. No one ever noticed any kind of "rainbows" even with the 2x color wheel.

2. No one ever noticed any panning problems. Every so often (I would guess 1 in 15 movies) you would briefly see an artifact or two during a movie, but very rare. I'm not sure what type of chip is in it, but its is certainly not new.

Maybe we are just not picky. All I know is that we all thoroughly enjoy watching.
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post #201 of 3493 Old 09-23-2005, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcrymes View Post

Strange.. Using that XD50U, I've watched many action movies with about 15-20 soldiers.

1. No one ever noticed any kind of "rainbows" even with the 2x color wheel.

2. No one ever noticed any panning problems. Every so often (I would guess 1 in 15 movies) you would briefly see an artifact or two during a movie, but very rare. I'm not sure what type of chip is in it, but its is certainly not new.

Maybe we are just not picky. All I know is that we all thoroughly enjoy watching.

Most people don't seem to see RBE or panning artifacts on 1 chip DLP. Unfortunately for those who do see them, they create distraction and/or fatigue. If you don't see the effects, just smile and enjoy the show
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post #202 of 3493 Old 09-23-2005, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tehotaone View Post

Unless I am wrong, one of the greatest advantages of a DC3 over Hd2+ machines is
the DC3 chip has a faster mirror speed for much smoother pans and fill rate.

I have read that all Hd2+ machines have panning issues.

I'm currently using an older NEC LT-240 XGA projector. I've never seen an HD2+ in action. Would the panning artifacts be worse than or equivalent to what I'm getting now?

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post #203 of 3493 Old 09-23-2005, 10:53 AM
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Josh,

In terms of motion, the Lt240k I owned handled fast pans and action sequences MUCH better than my brief ownership of the Mt700 Hd2+ machine.

It must be the 5x color wheel speed and the mirrors inability to keep up.

For instance Mitsubishi's solution to the panning on their H77 clone was to implement an option to go back to 4x in the service menu, which also reduced the contouring slightly.


if you are not rainbow sensitive..a 4x machine will be fine. I wonder just how much saturation is lost by a 1x change, but i know I could not live long term with a unit that pans like that...it is very distracting and artificial looking to me.

it looks like when they cut a 1.85 movie to 4:3 and you watch it on a 4:3 set....you know when it pans...within the frame? just like that.


I must tell you Josh, the 240k was a great machine, but you will be amazed at the difference...it was staggering....believe me....

side by side the 240k looked like a 2nd gen LCD....seriously...


TJ
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post #204 of 3493 Old 09-23-2005, 11:00 AM
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On a side note, I was just thinking about the RBE Panning situation?

Some people don't see them some think the ones who do are crazy?

Agreed... but I just wondered if the people that see the panning and or RBE have a higher eye "refresh rate"

I say this because if I run my CRT under 75hz I can catch scan lines and notice the picture less "static".

I am not terribly tweaky, but when I watch movies I want the smoothest, cleanest image.

Sucks to be able to see the panning.....RBE I see here and there but it is not that bad to make me want a lcd.

TJ
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post #205 of 3493 Old 09-23-2005, 12:36 PM
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post #206 of 3493 Old 09-23-2005, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tehotaone View Post

I must tell you Josh, the 240k was a great machine, but you will be amazed at the difference...it was staggering....believe me....

side by side the 240k looked like a 2nd gen LCD....seriously...

What projector are you using now? I've been holding out for affordable 720p models, and was thinking this one sounded promising.

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post #207 of 3493 Old 09-23-2005, 01:11 PM
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TJ's "between projectors" right now, but he used to have a Toshiba MT700 (clone of the BenQ PE7700). You can see his story on that thread.

Enjoy!

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post #208 of 3493 Old 09-23-2005, 02:22 PM
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Panning artifact and rainbows are different beasts.

Rainbows are sensitivity dependent.
Panning artifacts (AKA banding / motion dithering / clayface / watercolor effect / false contour / posterization / solarization) is there for everyone to see.

I have a BenQ 8700, which shows posterization on pans. If you are at all familiar with how a pan looks at the cinema, you'll notice something is amiss.

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post #209 of 3493 Old 09-23-2005, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubert View Post

Panning artifacts (AKA banding / motion dithering / clayface / watercolor effect / false contour / posterization / solarization) is there for everyone to see.

Any movie/DVD scenes that are particularly good examples of this?

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post #210 of 3493 Old 09-23-2005, 03:04 PM
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Josh,
Mike's right...I am between PJs right now... I can tell you the Mits sight unseen will be a vast improvement over the 240....HUGE.

A friend of mine came over with his 4805 he bought at Sam's and I was saying to myself " oh, cool a little DLP, ahh 848x480, ohhh that's going to look like crap" all aloof and ignorant.

I had my 240k with the anamorphic lens hung, he turned that little beast on and my opinion between business projectors and HT units changed in the time it took the lamp to get to temp.

2k- lt240k
800.00 anamorphic lens

1k- 4805 desolated my picture in every area but rez....every one.


So the reason I say this is you can not compare by memory, you have to see them side by side to see how drastic it is....

Any 720p HT DLP unit will make you happy trust me...but you have to nail down the motion artifact and see if it bothers you...otherwise you might be inbetween PJs like me

I am just hoping for a H78 price break....200 dollars more and I am buying....

PS:
Check the H77 threads upstairs for some good sources of "panning" those guys are all over it


TJ
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