Mitsubishi HC3000 MSRP $2,995 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 3491 Old 08-25-2005, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are the two up and coming machines from Mitsubishi.

http://www.cine4home.de/Meldungen/HC...HC3000news.htm
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post #2 of 3491 Old 08-25-2005, 07:01 PM
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Translated by Google...

Interesting, does anyone know the physical size of the new 1280x768 DLP chip? Is it the same as the PAL chip (576p)? Because the article states the H910 and the new H3000 share the same chassis, bulb, brightness and contrast specifications. I would therefore assume the optical assembly is the same as well. This may mean we'll see alot of companies using this new chip as a drop in upgrade to the aging 576p fleet. We could see some really cheap models... I'm thinking of the Infocus 5700 in particular.
-Matt
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post #3 of 3491 Old 08-25-2005, 08:27 PM
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Anybody know the list price for these models?
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post #4 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpjohnst View Post

Translated by Google...

Thanks. One part I don't get is:
Quote:
The connection side resembles strong that of the small brothers, only the reliable DVI socket was unfortunately replaced here by the HDMI variant. Considering the fact that also the HC3000 has no internal loudspeakers more, the more incomprehensibly.

HDMI inputs can take the YCbCr that is in the original source and allow conversion to RGB inside the projector (hopefully in a higher bitspace) instead of having to do a conversion externally to RGB and passing it as 8 bit data. So, why would somebody prefer a DVI input to an HDMI input? Especially considering that there are devices out that there have bugs that crush the data below video 16 and above video 235 to DVI inputs, but work correctly to HDMI inputs (like the JVC 5U D-Theater deck)?

--Darin

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post #5 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 01:14 AM
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I have seen someones post about a MSRP for HC3000 at 3000 euro. I believe the model has lens shift. That was not mentioned in the article or was it?

Mattias Ohlson
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post #6 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 07:38 AM
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If there is a vertical image position shift it is almost 100% electronical and not optical, remember it is a 1280x768 chip not 720...

Darin, I think he justs addresses the lousy design of the HDMI input in general. DVI is a more secure physical connection as you have two thumbscrew to tighten it.

--Peter
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post #7 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 07:51 AM
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Just speculation but...

As far as I know, they don't have HDTV in Europe yet so their only digital sources are probably computer based. Having HDMI would require an adapter an it's probably assumed to be more costly or unneccessary complication. I didn't realized HDMI could take an analog signal so maybe they didn't either
-Matt
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post #8 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 08:16 AM
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1280X768 ok for computers but Upscaling players and STB's can't match for 1.1 with no scaling by the projectors.

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post #9 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 08:34 AM
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I'm assuming there will be a 1280x720 mode where it turns off the remaining pixels so you can put up 720p images with no scaling. TI did something similar way back in the day with a 848x600 chip so you could do both 848x480 and 800x600 natively.
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post #10 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 08:59 AM
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So will this chip work just as well as a 720p?
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post #11 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 09:02 AM
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Dual mode would be great like the DM HT200 and IF LS110.

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post #12 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 09:09 AM
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If you go on specs only, it should perform very closely to todays <$3500 720p DLPs. This new two-way chip (768p 4:3 or 720p 16:9) uses the same 12 degree mirrors, equally fast or better DDR controller and darkchip 2 technology of the HD2+ 720p. HD3 and it's performance gains will probably be reserved for the $4000 and up crowd.

Specs aside, what will really dictate these machines performce is whether manufacturers decide to make a business projector with HT features or a HT projector that will show PPTs. That will dictate what color wheel/speed they design for, the noise level, the form factor, the connections offered, the scalar, etc... I have a feeling we'll see quite a few of these new units as really designed for business class (mass market) but that are acceptable for entry level HT.... ala an Infocus X4 or something. That said, the first two units announced, this Mits and the LG both appear to be targeted towards the HT crowd! I guess we'll see.
-Matt
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post #13 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarman View Post

Dual mode would be great like the DM HT200 and IF LS110.

Yeah, I think Plus had one too.
-Matt
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post #14 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drpp View Post

Darin, I think he justs addresses the lousy design of the HDMI input in general. DVI is a more secure physical connection as you have two thumbscrew to tighten it.

I understood that part, but the guys at Cine4Home are usually very knowledgeable and I don't see how they can even imply that sound is the only advantage of HDMI over DVI. I'll take an HDMI myself for the YCbCr. If they are concerned about the physical connection then get an adapter and/or a short conversion cable, but don't limit what the video can do to an 8 bit RGB input for the rest of us just for that. At least that is my opinion. I consider HDMI inputs an upgrade if the projector internals are done correctly (to help avoid banding issues and anything else that can be caused by converting to an 8 bit RGB space) and would like to see my next projector after the H79 (with DVI) have an HDMI input.

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post #15 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 11:09 AM
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Quote:


(to help avoid banding issues and anything else that can be caused by converting to an 8 bit RGB space)

It seems to me just a question of where and when. The conversion to RGB has to happen with most all current PJ's and is often done early in the display. Like gains/offsets and levels, it seems the argument is more about what end of the cable to do it on rather than a choice whether to do it at all.

Dave
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post #16 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlarsen View Post

It seems to me just a question of where and when. The conversion to RGB has to happen with most all current PJ's and is often done early in the display. Like gains/offsets and levels, it seems the argument is more about what end of the cable to do it on rather than a choice whether to do it at all.

Kind of. The argument to me is more about whether it needs to be done with 8 bits or can be done with a higher bitspace (which is an advantage when converting or scaling). If the internals to the projector are going to be truncating to 8 bit RGB early then I don't see much difference between DVI and HDMI (other than input devices with bugs). Also, if somebody is using a scaler like a DVDO then I believe it is doing its calculations in YUV space. So, an HD+ model with DVI input will have to get 8 bit RGB from the source, convert it to YUV, do any wizardry, then convert back to 8 bit RGB to send to a DVI projector. But, the VP30 model with HDMI input going to an HDMI input display could keep everything in YUV all the way to the display without truncating to 8 bit. In this case, even if the projector went to 8 bit RGB at the very end I think that could be better than doing it very early and then doing lots of calculations that could expand rounding errors.

As examples, the Sony HS51 and upcoming Sanyo Z4 are both claimed to do 12 bit processing internally. In those case I would prefer to see HDMI inputs, which they both have, to DVI inputs (I believe the HS51 has one of these also, but I would probably use the HDMI for more image critical stuff).

BTW: Did you get a chance to look at the scenes from "Ali" I posted screenshots for on the CRT forum?

--Darin

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post #17 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 11:47 AM
 
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I think Htpcfan touched on this issue, when he said: the display or decode device, is the intended destination for the relevant (16/235) data, and it will decide to discard the oversized bits ie Normalization. & Also implying it's robust!

Also the headroom is built into the digital payload, implying even if a larger (10 bit) RGB were used, still it would not change the 'noise floor issue> Error correction and headroom are for the display to be linear when white is above 100%IRE.

Also Darin: the banding issues are emphasized, if trying to calibrate to (-IRE)
values, it forces you to raise black above (16) to see it. You would be better off using (16) @ 7.5IRE or (16) @0IRE, for brightness adjustment IMO.


thomas
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post #18 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

I understood that part, but the guys at Cine4Home are usually very knowledgeable and I don't see how they can even imply that sound is the only advantage of HDMI over DVI. I'll take an HDMI myself for the YCbCr.

Here is a recent review on cine4home where they compare upscaling DVD player outputs using DVI, HDMI and YCbCr over HDMI. I didn't quite follow everything but maybe it will shed some light on their bias. It seems from the pictures that they weren't impressed by the analog capabilities over HDMI. By the way, the link is the translated version.
-Matt
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post #19 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 12:59 PM
 
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Matt,

The link is interesting in that, indeed 100% white defines everything about the image; meaning everything tracks with , ie Black, Gamma, pedestal, & APL.

Video standards are a key word used in the doc. The color temperature would be the same for everyone, if they used equal values for gamma crosspoint when color temperature is coded. ie 2.35 or some common "standard". Also this specification is referenced to the phosphor characteristics, of the reference CRT monitor, the artist is painting with..

Also a digital signal is in itself is robust, meaning judder and slop are irrelevant.

thomas
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post #20 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpjohnst View Post

Here is a recent review on cine4home where they compare upscaling DVD player outputs using DVI, HDMI and YCbCr over HDMI. I didn't quite follow everything but maybe it will shed some light on their bias. It seems from the pictures that they weren't impressed by the analog capabilities over HDMI. By the way, the link is the translated version.

Thanks. First of all I don't see them mention the display used and I don't see how all these conclusions can be drawn without knowing the display. I would not be surprised at all if many displays had different colorimetry with RGB input than YCbCr input. Next, for the Denon 2910/3910 I believe they say that the player needs to be put in "HDMI YPbPr" mode to perform best, yet that goes against the railing against an HDMI input on a projector if the DVI input doesn't allow using that mode to that projector. It would be nice if they could comment on this, as those two things don't seem to be consistent to me.

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post #21 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 01:57 PM
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Quote:


The argument to me is more about whether it needs to be done with 8 bits or can be done with a higher bitspace

Dual link DVI is not limited to 24bit RGB. It can support greater depths- at least in spec.
Quote:


BTW: Did you get a chance to look at the scenes from "Ali" I posted screenshots for on the CRT forum?

Yes I did. Thanks. I was looking for Chris to provide scene confirmation or a frame # / timestamp as it was his assertion that scenes from this title would provide good evidence of WTW image information. It seems you and I agree that this title doesn't offer such evidence so it didn't seem worthwhile to do a more thorough analysis without input from Chris. I don't sense much interest from others in using images to contrast and compare image information. I don't get it. I could certainly do the A/Bs (as could most anyone) but in the case of Ali and you, it seems I was preaching to the choir. Please advise if you see any merit of further analysis of this title.

Dave
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post #22 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlarsen View Post

Dual link DVI is not limited to 24bit RGB. It can support greater depths- at least in spec.

I'm not sure what else dual link can support that would be useful here. It might just be in the spec as you say. I think it might be possible for a DVI input projector to basically indicate to the sender that they can take the digital component signal (YCbCr) just like an HDMI input though. The same might be true for 480i, which is one I forgot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlarsen View Post

Yes I did.
...
Please advise if you see any merit of further analysis of this title.

If you looked at one or more the timestamps I posted with your histogram approach and didn't see much at all above 235 then it pretty much confirms what I saw with that one, as I wasn't sure if there was something else in my chain and I couldn't determine things with great accuracy. And so I don't think looking at more things on that disk would help much, as you say.

Thanks,
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post #23 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 03:30 PM
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Quote:


I'm not sure what else dual link can support that would be useful here.

Higher bit depth across the cable. I thought that was one of the assumed? limits when you said:
Quote:


The argument to me is more about whether it needs to be done with 8 bits or can be done with a higher bitspace

Quote:


It might just be in the spec as you say.

From page 13 of the DVI 1.0 Spec:
Quote:


Color depths requiring greater that 24-bit per pixel are allowed to be supported via the second link.

Quote:


I think it might be possible for a DVI input projector to basically indicate to the sender that they can take the digital component signal (YCbCr) just like an HDMI input though.

I'm not sure but I don't think so. While primarily it's just an encoding and TMDS transmission method, it seems pretty specific in it's encoding method. I've not seen any support for YCbCr in spec or implementation.

DVI / HDMI will both be legacy interfaces soon anyway. A new TMDS / LVDS differential proposal (Display port or something like that) is on the move and address the mechanical weakness of HDMI and the encoding, bandwidth, audio, and content protection limits of DVI.
Quote:


so I don't think looking at more things on that disk would help much, as you say.

Agreed. Unless Chris (or someone) can chime in and advise more specifically what we? may be missing here.

Dave
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post #24 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlarsen View Post

Higher bit depth across the cable. I thought that was one of the assumed? limits when you said:

I should have been more clear. By "that would be useful here" I meant with the projectors we have that probably wouldn't take a higher bit depth anyway. My guess is that projector manufacturers would go to an HDMI input instead of staying with a DVI and adding support for greater bit depth than 8 bit RGB, even if the cables and specs support it.

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post #25 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 04:50 PM
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Quote:


Next, for the Denon 2910/3910 I believe they say that the player needs to be put in "HDMI YPbPr" mode to perform best, yet that goes against the railing against an HDMI input on a projector if the DVI input doesn't allow using that mode to that projector. It would be nice if they could comment on this, as those two things don't seem to be consistent to me.


The comment was about the lousy physical connection of HDMI. With HDMI, we had alot of connection problems lately... So yeah, the best solution would be an YPbPr compatible DVI-socket ;-) ... we should invent one !


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post #26 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post

The comment was about the lousy physical connection of HDMI. With HDMI, we had alot of connection problems lately... So yeah, the best solution would be an YPbPr compatible DVI-socket ;-) ... we should invent one !

Thanks. Maybe something like this HDMI male to 2 females would help. I couldn't find a single male to female cable, but found a 6" female to female here that could be combined with 2 male to male cables to hopefully put less stress on the connection at the projector (if that is what you were referring to). If it was just getting connectors to go together right to sync then these might not help, but I haven't run into any HDMI problems so far (although I am mostly using HDMI outputs from sources as I don't have HDMI inputs on my projectors at the moment).

--Darin

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post #27 of 3491 Old 08-26-2005, 05:05 PM
 
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Quote:


Agreed. Unless Chris (or someone) can chime in and advise more specifically what we? may be missing here.

Say Dave, I don't have Ali anymore, I could pick it up again when I get back in town, but it's just something from a long time ago that recollect seeing clipping when I was working out my PC and its levels. I think the screenshots you posted, the guys' forehead is an excellent example of clipping and colorshifting. But like I said, it's probably been at least a year since I've seen this movie so I don't even hardly remember what happens in it, let alone specific scenes. I can't really remember what else at the time showed clipping. I haven't spent a lot of time looking at stuff on systems that clip at all recently, so it's not like I have a vast array of scenes I can point you to that will look clipped above 235.
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post #28 of 3491 Old 09-11-2005, 09:22 AM
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Bump!

Any CEDIA sightings?

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-George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four
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post #29 of 3491 Old 09-11-2005, 09:49 AM
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Thanks for bumping this as I was about to start a new post.

The HX3000U was shown along side the 900 and it's a very impressive projector at the scheduled retail of $3000. It's a DC3 chip which is also using TI's DDP3020 BrilliantColor technology (more about that here). It's rated at 1000 ANSI lumens, 4000:1 CR and 26 dB at the low setting which also gives you 3000 hr. lamp life. It's supposedly available in October. The display was not the greatest, but colors had a lot more pop than the 900. Could be the hot item in the under $3K DLP world.

Enjoy!

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post #30 of 3491 Old 09-11-2005, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeSRC View Post

The HX3000U was shown along side the 900 and it's a very impressive projector at the scheduled retail of $3000. It's a DC3 chip which is also using TI's DDP3020 BrilliantColor technology (more about that here). It's rated at 1000 ANSI lumens, 4000:1 CR and 26 dB at the low setting which also gives you 3000 hr. lamp life. It's supposedly available in October. The display was not the greatest, but colors had a lot more pop than the 900. Could be the hot item in the under $3K DLP world.

!!!!!
DC3 for $3K retail. The H78 will have a competitor very soon.

Thanks Mike. I had been wondering where the news regarding 720P DLP were.
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