Panny AE900 Official Thread- Please post here! - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 6453 Old 10-17-2005, 03:07 PM
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I have an OPPO and you have to bring up the brightness from +2-+5 depending on the projector. Check this using AVIA or DVE.
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post #632 of 6453 Old 10-17-2005, 03:14 PM
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Quote:


Note the SP5000 is mounted further back (1M) than the AE900 so it's at a slight disadvantage in terms of brightness, you should allow a few percent for this handicap.

That's funny...I read the exact same review and took it to mean that he was saying that you have to account for the fact that all projectors are probably slightly (a few percent) dimmer at max. zoom. Judging from the rest of his review, I don't think he'd make such a gross error of thinking that just because the projector is farther away that it's dimmer (though he might have). I don't know if it's true that projectors ar slightly dimmer at max. zoom or not, but it wouldn't surprise me, due to what little I know about aperture sizes and focal lengths on cameras. It would be interesting to see some luminance tests on several projectors at max. and min. zoom to see if there are differences, and whether it always goes one way or the other.

That's great stuff about contrast ratios too. I've seen some threads floating around here before about how with any ambient light at all, the brighter, 500:1 CR projector will always outperform the dimmer, 5000:1 CR projector, because with any ambient light on the screen, you can't see the CR difference.

Steve V.
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post #633 of 6453 Old 10-17-2005, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevvot View Post

That's funny...I read the exact same review and took it to mean that he was saying that you have to account for the fact that all projectors are probably slightly (a few percent) dimmer at max. zoom. Judging from the rest of his review, I don't think he'd make such a gross error of thinking that just because the projector is farther away that it's dimmer (though he might have).

I'm basing this partially on the gross errors that this same person made in his writeup on contrast ratio. I would give him more of the benefit of the doubt if he didn't show so much misunderstanding of the issue there. He completely screwed up what the Contrast Sensitivity Function is (basically had it inversed) and came to some incorrect conclusions. I sent him an email about it and noticed later that he at least cleaned some of his stuff up and put in a disclaimer that he isn't an optomotrist and could be wrong on some things, or something like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevvot View Post

I don't know if it's true that projectors ar slightly dimmer at max. zoom or not, but it wouldn't surprise me, due to what little I know about aperture sizes and focal lengths on cameras. It would be interesting to see some luminance tests on several projectors at max. and min. zoom to see if there are differences, and whether it always goes one way or the other.

As I said, you can't know without looking at the particular projector. On one high end model with multiple lenses some inside specs I got showed that the end of the zoom with the higher lumen output was different for different lens options. And the CR was different too with the end with the higher CR being inconsistent. One reason is that many lenses have irises. I have measured one unit where the further distance away was something like 15% dimmer and I plan on measuring the AE900 at some point here. It's long zoom range will make this interesting.

It is definitely possible that the further distance for the same screen size will be somewhat dimmer on more models than not, but I'm sure it won't be universal.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #634 of 6453 Old 10-17-2005, 03:48 PM
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Makes sense to me. I look forward to seeing your measurements of the 900 at both extremes.

Steve V.
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post #635 of 6453 Old 10-17-2005, 04:13 PM
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In camera lenses, increased zoom often means a smaller maximum aperture, though you can get very expensive zoom lenses that maintain the aperture throughout the zoom.

I'm not as familar with projector lens design, but since many do have irises, this seems like it could be an issue.

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post #636 of 6453 Old 10-17-2005, 04:19 PM
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See attachment.

What do you think? This is of the menu with background changed to black.

Thanks,

Tom
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post #637 of 6453 Old 10-17-2005, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbergman View Post

See attachment.

What do you think? This is of the menu with background changed to black.

Thanks,

Tom

I'm guessing that from a reasonable viewing distance, that the RG and B pixels would still likely hit that same photoreceptor cell at the back of your eye and thus would be perceived as a perfect white line.

Can you notice any convergence problem when you are at 1.5x viewing distance?

Laz
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post #638 of 6453 Old 10-17-2005, 06:36 PM
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That blue looks suspiciously like "chromatic abberation" ro the dreaded "purple fringe" that digital photographers know too well. Do you see that with the maked eye? If so, it could be the fault of the projector lens. If not, then I'd suspect the camera which took the picture.
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post #639 of 6453 Old 10-17-2005, 06:53 PM
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I wouldn't believe anything ausmedia say's.

Once they're out of stock of 700's, they will change their review to show how much better the 900 is and how important it is for existing 700 owners to upgrade.

Nothing new for them.

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post #640 of 6453 Old 10-17-2005, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post

That blue looks suspiciously like "chromatic abberation" ro the dreaded "purple fringe" that digital photographers know too well. Do you see that with the maked eye? If so, it could be the fault of the projector lens. If not, then I'd suspect the camera which took the picture.

The photo is a reasonably accurate representation of what I see. No camera problem here.

Tom
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post #641 of 6453 Old 10-17-2005, 08:49 PM
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Would it make sense to get the 700 instead of the 900 if it could be purchased at the same place new at $500 less?

I've never owned a projector before - if that makes a difference...
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post #642 of 6453 Old 10-17-2005, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Klim View Post

Would it make sense to get the 700 instead of the 900 if it could be purchased at the same place new at $500 less?

I've never owned a projector before - if that makes a difference...

Arbitrary difference:

Vertical Banding. If you can get the projector demoed before you purchase, or can return it if there is VB, then you will be able to select a 700 with no VB. Otherwise, it's luck of the draw. And it seems the 900s are far less likely to have a VB problem.

Hard difference (non-fixable or tweakable)

The 900 is a little brighter. But perhaps not enough brighter to warrant the extra cost.

The contrast on the 900 will be better either way.

The 900's dynamic iris is much better than the 700 in that it's pretty much instant, so you won't see an image gradually get brighter, unless you're opening a window on a desktop. For movie viewing, shouldn't be noticeable at all.

Possible difference:

The 700 seems to have a "bulb fart" at around 150 hours where the bulb will suddenly lose a noticeable amount of brightness. We'll have to see if the 900s start doing that as they do use the same bulb from what I understand.
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post #643 of 6453 Old 10-17-2005, 09:34 PM
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Does anyone have an idea how the Panny 900 would match with the Optoma Graywolf screen?
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post #644 of 6453 Old 10-17-2005, 10:01 PM
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From my post on the GreyWolf thread:

"On a side note, I have a new Panasonic AE900 in house right now and it's a great match with the GW. Because the AE900 lines up with the center of the screen (in default lens shift position), it doesn't end up far from the viewer when mounted. It's also extremely quiet, so it's not a problem to have it close. This plays to the strength of the GW, since it looks best when you're seated close to the projector."

Also, it provides a nice improvement in depth of blacks.

Enjoy!

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post #645 of 6453 Old 10-17-2005, 10:15 PM
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This is a quick review of my new ae900u. I do want to say that this forum is really great and has taught me a whole lot. Could have used a glossary at first on the language that you all talk but a very helpful site. This is my first HT so please feel free to educate me on how I did. Ok, just a little background on myself, Computer Network WAN and Backbone Engineer however, none of which I have used for HTX, except for Cat6 for running runners through the ceiling so bare with me. I haven't gone through the receipts yet (don't want to know) but I will guess around the price for each. I do want to thank my friend Paul who is pictured in my attic (who says it doesn't snow in Florida) Please contact me if you would like details on anything I mention.

Projector Mount ($40) - Bolted a flange in the joists up in the ceiling to a threaded pipe to another flange to a clear plastic sheet with rubber washers that the PJ is mounted to.

What a pain that waslooks simple but for those who have been there you know what I mean. With gas prices where they are I was making a thousands trips to home depot for everythingseeing the same faces wondering what the hell I was creating. Anyway I ran my power cable to a ceiling light and disabled the light switch and make the circuit hot. Ran the 25 feet of component cable and two runners for future cables.

Screen ($60) - DIY blackout material fabric stretched onto a sheet of plywood to a 2X3's and 2X7's to keep the screen flat so there was no bowing.

I don't trust those drywall bolts or screws so I was not going to hang a 50 pound screen onto a wall and have it fall so I screwed into the studs with two screws and then hung it up like a picture with wire. You will see why later. Plus I added a piece of carpet padding on the bottom so there was a spacer and cushion for the screen to rest on. I made the additional wood supports in red and the mounting screws and wire in green for the picture. I still need to add masking but still figuring out which on which easiest and lightest way to make an adjustable masking. Still working on that.

Speakers ($3000) - Now this was fun for me b/c I do enjoy music. I used to do all that speaker building back in the day with car audio so this time I just made it for the home. And yes that box with the 4 JL Audio 13W1v2-8 s makes movies COME ALIVE! Now you see why I need to cushion the screen along with rubber mounts onto the projector. The center and fronts are JBL and the 6 surrounds are polks (4 in the back and 2 presence on the front wall).

AV Equipment ($4000) - Panasonic PT AE900U, Onkyo DV-CP701 DVD player, Adcom 555 MII amp for the subs and a Yamaha HTR-5760 which if anyone has I have tried to troubleshoot a DTS ES 6.1 Discrete issue with chapter two of Rush Hour 2. The audio skips throughout the whole movie but only with Discrete not with any of the other audio formats.

Ok, with all of that out of the way back to the AE900U. I have it 9 feet from lens to screen projecting a 45X80 Widescreen format. The lens is zoomed all the way out to make the image at that size. I do see a slight dimming in picture as if I was to zoom to the smallest picture it is much more brighter. First row of seating is 14 feet. When I start the projector I get two clicks from inside the unit (?normal?) then the splash screen. I was limited at the time b/c those darn component cables are so expensive so what I did was to use the wide/zoom feature along with the vertical lens knob to compensate. I do know I am probably losing some quality but that was the trade off at the time of installation. And when you get started with this project you just want it to end as quickly as possible. I do enjoy how simple it was to set up. Straight forward commands however, I do have some questions on how to set it up.

I did buy that Sound & Vision setup DVD. I feel that it was WAY to simplistic and I would need another detailed DVD. It does mention if you sit thought the presentation that the DVD is not recommended for PJ's and just use it for CRT's and rear projection LCD's. Don't know why but that is what they said. I did used it and did a minor tweak here and there to preference.

About picture qualityI do see screen door effect however, I don't know what vertical banding looks like so I can't tell. I am not sure if this is normal but any of the DVD's that I play show on the menu as 480i.

Other than that so far with 20 hours on the lamp, I am very pleased with the purchase now let me hear from you.

Steve.
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post #646 of 6453 Old 10-17-2005, 10:55 PM
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Which would be the better match for XBox videogames? the 900 or Sanyo 4?
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post #647 of 6453 Old 10-17-2005, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevvot View Post

Makes sense to me. I look forward to seeing your measurements of the 900 at both extremes.

Okay, I did some measurements and the light outputs were quite different. I hope nobody will take these as being due to the inverse square law as light drops off after coming out of the lens, but is instead because of what is happening inside the projector and lens.

Here is what I got for the same image size, but with the projector as close to the screen as it would go vs furthest away:

Closest: 126 lux
Furthest: 70 lux

The on/off CRs I measured were different, but slight:

Closest (auto iris on): 3300:1 to 3400:1
Furthest (auto iris on): 3000:1
Closest (auto iris off): 1000:1
Furthest (auto iris off): 800:1

The 10% difference or so with the iris on might be within the margin of error given that I was holding the sensor for the test.

The values for lux were with no filter on the projector and in video mode with settings that I had used with the KR-6 recommended filter, but without total calibration (just enough to make me happy enough to watch for a while). Since I did some calibration with the filter, but didn't have it on there, this means that the images would have been lower in red than D65 would call for. The lamp was on low and if I had put it on high I believe the black level would stay the same (based on a test a few days ago), but the lumens for white would go up (and thus higher on/off CR). This was also with a 116" wide image. Calculating that out gives me the following for lumens:

Closest (no filter): 615 lumens
Furthest (no filter): 340 lumens

Checking how much the filter cut the light at this point and then calculating gave me:

Closest (with KR-6): 375 lumens
Furthest (with KR-6): 210 lumens

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #648 of 6453 Old 10-18-2005, 12:05 AM
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Is anyone using the 900 along with the Panasonic S77 (or S97) DVD player? Do you notice if this combination has the macroblocking problem? I have ordered my 900 along with a screen and am looking for a relatively inexpensive upconverting DVD player that mates well with the 900 (and looks good of course).

Jim
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post #649 of 6453 Old 10-18-2005, 07:23 AM
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Well, I ended up buying the 700 because I got a brand new one for only $1600. I couldn't justify the extra $700. But, I certainly haven't noticed any convergence problems (or VB for that matter), but I will look closer tonight just for kicks. I saw your pictures and it would drive me crazy. Good luck with resolution of the issue.
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post #650 of 6453 Old 10-18-2005, 07:27 AM
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I used a sencore HD video generator and didn't find any convergance problems. The first test was through the componet 1 but I have also used the pc port with no problems either.


William
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post #651 of 6453 Old 10-18-2005, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Here is what I got for the same image size, but with the projector as close to the screen as it would go vs furthest away:

Closest: 126 lux
Furthest: 70 lux

...

Closest (no filter): 615 lumens
Furthest (no filter): 340 lumens
--Darin

Wow! Thanks for the data, Darin. That's a big brightness difference. I was always on the side of the farther the projector from the screen, the better, but this adds another component to the equation.

Steve V.
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post #652 of 6453 Old 10-18-2005, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post


Closest (no filter): 615 lumens
Furthest (no filter): 340 lumens

Checking how much the filter cut the light at this point and then calculating gave me:

Closest (with KR-6): 375 lumens
Furthest (with KR-6): 210 lumens

--Darin

Well that sucks. I was debating a shelf mount @ 24' vs a ceiling mount @13'. The shelf makes things so much eaiser, but it sure sounds like the PQ will suffer at that distance.
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post #653 of 6453 Old 10-18-2005, 01:48 PM
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Darin,

Thanks for the measurements. The brightness difference vs. throw is really surprising, though welcome for me.

Did you happen to notice how the lens performance holds up at minimum throw ratio as regards focus uniformity, chromatic aberration, and pincushion/barrel distortion?

Thanks

Noah
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post #654 of 6453 Old 10-18-2005, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Darin,

Thanks for the measurements. The brightness difference vs. throw is really surprising, though welcome for me.

Thanks

The 700 exhibits the same light loss. It is a result of the aperture change since the focal length to lens (glass) ratio changes - much like many camera zoom lenses have different apertures for full wide vs. full zoom.

The manual lists a a range of F1.9 to 3.1 (a little more than a stop). I would think the 900 is using the same optics.

ted
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post #655 of 6453 Old 10-18-2005, 03:22 PM
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Help out a dullard here - what we're saying is, the closer you can get this pj to your screen, the better, right?

While we're on the point - why don't any of the dlps in this range offer such a short throw (ie. 100" at 10 feet.)
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post #656 of 6453 Old 10-18-2005, 03:41 PM
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I know this sounds weird and I hope someone could offer up a solution.

I should preface this by saying it could very well be user or other equipment error. I upgraded from a Sanyo PLV-Z1.

Source equipment:
Oppo OPDV971H DVD player
DirecTV HDTivo
Hughes E86
Gefen 2x1 HDMI Switcher
50 foot HDMI cable
30 component cables

The AE900 picture is much brighter than the Z1. It has a lot more detail and none of the screendoor. However,it might just be the big jump in quality that might be disappointing me.

While watching football games both on CBS and ABC, via an OTA, I became acutely aware of artifacts around players and yardlines in medium to far shots. It was even more apparent when there was fast motion. Then I started noticing it when they would do a dissolve or overlay with the logo (HD graphics, not standard def).

It bothered me so much that I unhooked the HDTivo thinking I was seeing MPEG artifacts, and connected the E86 via component. I have read that people using long runs of DVI / HDMI cable have complained of sparklies. I thought maybe they were referring to artifacts.

This helped about 60%. I then did an A-B comparison between the E86 and the HDTivo via component. They looked about the same. So, apparently, HDMI from the HDTivo exacerbated the problem. But last night watching Monday Night Football, I could still see jagged aliasing, both at 720 and 1080i.


I then got out the manual and saw I could mess with the clock phase. Changing that setting may have helped some, I'm really not sure. I decided to turn it off at that point.

So...a couple of questions:

Is the 900 so good that I am seeing artifacts that exist in the broadcast?
Artifacts that the Z1 obscured with it's screendoor and lesser resolution?

Or could this be a result of the AE900's smooth screen?

I ask this because I feel that if the artifacting existed in the broadcast all along, I would have noticed it on the Z1 at some point.


Thanks for the input,

Herb
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post #657 of 6453 Old 10-18-2005, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb View Post

Is the 900 so good that I am seeing artifacts that exist in the broadcast?
Artifacts that the Z1 obscured with it's screendoor and lesser resolution?

Or could this be a result of the AE900's smooth screen?

I ask this because I feel that if the artifacting existed in the broadcast all along, I would have noticed it on the Z1 at some point.

Just changing the ft-lamberts off the screen can have a big effect here. I have showed people this at get-togethers where I don't change anything in the source or projector at all, but just change between a brighter screen and a dimmer screen and the extra artifacts visibility is obvious on the brighter screen. You might want to try a neutral density filter and see if that helps.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #658 of 6453 Old 10-18-2005, 04:36 PM
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Hello,

I was just wondering if there is any one here in this forum who previously had an AE700 and updated to the AE900 and if it is worth the extra money for the tweaks of the AE900 and overall better picture or just minor,i have not seen enough overall reviews yet from owners evern though the projector has only been available a for a few weeks now.I have had my AE700 for about 4 months and have been pretty happy overall with it,i watch DVD only using HDMI to HDMI at 720p.If any one can post there opions if they have had both units and list your comments would be great!
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post #659 of 6453 Old 10-18-2005, 04:49 PM
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Gameover: At the top of the page is this comparison of the 700 vs the 900 that is quoted below.

I've read a number of folks that have compared the two, including reviews linked in this thread and Dan's thread on the AVS demo in LA that compared the two projectors side by side.

IMO, unless the retailer is willing to do a trade up for the AE700 to the 900, you probably would take a pretty hefty hit on the resale (even though it's 4 months old) to justify the differences between the projectors...but it comes down to a personal monetary value.

Good Luck
Ron


Quote:
Originally Posted by DanLW View Post

Arbitrary difference:

Vertical Banding. If you can get the projector demoed before you purchase, or can return it if there is VB, then you will be able to select a 700 with no VB. Otherwise, it's luck of the draw. And it seems the 900s are far less likely to have a VB problem.

Hard difference (non-fixable or tweakable)

The 900 is a little brighter. But perhaps not enough brighter to warrant the extra cost.

The contrast on the 900 will be better either way.

The 900's dynamic iris is much better than the 700 in that it's pretty much instant, so you won't see an image gradually get brighter, unless you're opening a window on a desktop. For movie viewing, shouldn't be noticeable at all.

Possible difference:

The 700 seems to have a "bulb fart" at around 150 hours where the bulb will suddenly lose a noticeable amount of brightness. We'll have to see if the 900s start doing that as they do use the same bulb from what I understand.


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post #660 of 6453 Old 10-18-2005, 05:09 PM
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I just purchased the AE900 and have only watched a couple DVDs. At this point I really like the projector (my first), but still haven't done any calibration. I need to get a 50' HDMI cable to hook up to my DVD player and was wondering if anyone is running HDMI cables this long with the AE900? I looked on bluejeans, ram and monoprice and they all have 50ft cable, but the monoprice one is about 1/2 the price of the others. Anyone using monoprice? Are their cables of similar quality to the others?

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Reply Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

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