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post #91 of 1081 Old 11-11-2005, 03:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dvdr View Post

Hi ROne
Any tipps for movies, that are edited the "natural" way?

Joerg

Most likely tomorrow, I will have the chance to compare an out-of-the box Z4 with a cine4home-modified one at my dealer (modification with a color-filter and colorfacts-setup like described on their website). Looking forward to that experience. Maybe, I also will be able to test your settings against that...

That sounds really interesting.

I will have to think about "natural" movies ...

AE2000here.


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post #92 of 1081 Old 11-12-2005, 01:47 AM
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Hi ROne and all you other Tweakers

just one question, regarding the auto-iris:

If cine4home.de is right, then the auto-iris has three different modes, that the user cannot influence. The modes are inherent with the presets and apply different iris-speeds, iris-"delays" (a new scene has to play x seconds, before the iris moves) and iris-"thresholds" (iris does not work/works only below/above a certain brightness).
So, for tweaking, it would be most interesting, in which of the presets, the auto-iris behaves in what manner - and furthermore, in which preset its movement is not too distracting.
In the Creative cinema preset, I did not notice any auto-iris at all, is there any?
In Living, it did not seem too obvious to me, but sometimes, I noticed it slightly
In Vivid, I could not stand it...

That all depends of the movie, though. If you have one of those fast-cut ones like StarWars or an action movie, you might not notice the iris, since before it comes in, they already have cut to the next shot with different brightness.
In one of those "artsy" movies with long shots, it should be much more distracting.

So:
Which preset gives what auto-iris behaviour?
What effects did you notice?
Which was best/worst for you personally?

This is interesting in terms of tweaking as well, since ROne has based his settings on the Living-preset, cine4home (if I look at their measuring charts) has most likely based their tweak on Vivid....

Joerg
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post #93 of 1081 Old 11-12-2005, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by dvdr View Post


This is interesting in terms of tweaking as well, since ROne has based his settings on the Living-preset, cine4home (if I look at their measuring charts) has most likely based their tweak on Vivid....

Joerg

i think cine4home base their tuning on the Dynamic preset. if you compare the color chart in their tuning article with the charts in their standard review of the Z4 they match the Dynamic preset.

anyway for me the iris mode in creative cinema and living seem to be identical. in dark scenes i see the iris close down (but only a bit) for both presets.

Vivid, Dynamic are also unbearable for me as you can see the iris moving for about 1 second, plus dark scenes really look awful with the lamp iris closed down. any bright spot in a dark scene just looks too dimmed and washed out, but that second downpoint is pretty much the same on all projectors using that auto-iris trick i guess.
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post #94 of 1081 Old 11-12-2005, 11:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Couple of points: I think though what cinE4home are suggesting in there latest article is that if you use the powerful/vivid/dynamic without iris but with filter - like the z3, you can increase contrast in the usual way.

I had a quick go last night and I didn't find it to be much improved over living with auto-iris.

Though you can of course get a better black this way.

Creative cinema was at my first attempt down on contrast by 100:1 over living, though this could have been due to my initial inexperience with the Z4.

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post #95 of 1081 Old 11-13-2005, 09:03 AM
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Hi

Just re-read their article. Utility is right, they seem to have based their tweak on the dynamik preset. They wrote, that after measurement with colorfacts, the software suggested a "red-orange" filter.
After applying that filter PLUS calibrating the many options the Z4 offers, they achieved a contrast of 6800:1. If you don't like the way, the auto-iris works and shut it OFF, you can end up with a contrast of 1450:1 with the filter present.
That is the same contrast, that you can achieve WITHOUT a filter, but in calibrated mode, WITH Auto-Iris ON.

Conclusion: If you hate Auto-Iris, according to cine4home, there seems to be no way to achieve good contrast (1450:1) but to go with a filter and correct calibration (For comparison: a cine4home-tweaked Z3 reaches 1460:1 with a filter, 900:1 without it).
If you are looking for best contrast (6800:1), then there is no other way than WITH filter, WITH Auto-Iris and WITH calibration based on the dynamik preset.
Additionally, as ROne mentioned - and cine4home state in their test, the color-filter provides "black" blacks instead of "greyish-smeared" blacks.

Note: I am just quoting, and cannot judge/compare ROnes great findings with the findings of cine4home, having not seen the latter tuning yet myself (and still fiddling around to adjust ROnes settings to the output-signal, my Oppo provides, which seems to much differ from his PC's video-card).

But hopefully this week, my dealer (who is one of cine4home authorized dealers) will have a tweaked unit in his studio and I can compare it side by side to an out-of-the-box unit and my ROne-based and a bit altered tweak in my personal Z4. I'll report back, promised!

Joerg
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post #96 of 1081 Old 11-13-2005, 09:15 AM
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"But hopefully this week, my dealer (who is one of cine4home authorized dealers) will have a tweaked unit in his studio and I can compare it side by side to an out-of-the-box unit and my ROne-based and a bit altered tweak in my personal Z4. I'll report back, promised!"-Joerg

Thanks for your research thus far, looking forward to your report

~Dave

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post #97 of 1081 Old 11-13-2005, 02:24 PM
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Sorry to break the tweaking of the Z4 dicussion, but I was wondering about the results and those of us who have no taken the plunge yet. I'm a bit nervous now to spend the extra money on the Z4. I can get a Z3 for about $1000 used (assuming the dealer still has it) or even $1400 new. At this point, am I better off still getting the Z4 or are we finding that the Z3 is as good or better in some cases? I am very new to the projector scene & I saw that ROne said he wishes he could trade back to his Z3. I just want the clearest, brightest, sharpest & most colorful picture I can get without doing hours of tweaking. Some, but not hours. I can live with following a setup if we find one that is optimal & tweaking to that. I just can't spend the time tweaking myself.

What do you guys think is the best route to take? Spend the extra $700-$1000 on the Z4 or get the Z3 & save money? I really want the best of the 2 for now & the future.
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post #98 of 1081 Old 11-13-2005, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dweezilz View Post

.... I saw that ROne said he wishes he could trade back to his Z3. .....

I regard ROne as the Z$ guru at this time as he has worked harder than anyone tweaking it and generously reporting his findings to us.Thus I have read his every post.

I cannot recall him saying that he wished he could trade back to the Z3. Where did you find this?

Shelly

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post #99 of 1081 Old 11-13-2005, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by shelly View Post

I regard ROne as the Z$ guru at this time as he has worked harder than anyone tweaking it and generously reporting his findings to us.Thus I have read his every post.

I cannot recall him saying that he wished he could trade back to the Z3. Where did you find this?

Shelly

I understand what you are saying (as to why you read all his posts...me too), yet it just kinda comes off like you are saying I don't feel the same about ROne. I just don't want anyone to infer that I don't feel 100% the same about ROne as you obviously. Just wanted to clear that up. Sorry in advance if that's not what you intended. Anyway, here it is:

Quote:
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If I could find a way to get the Z3 back without losing money - I would.

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post #100 of 1081 Old 11-13-2005, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dweezilz View Post

I understand what you are saying (as to why you read all his posts...me too), yet it just kinda comes off like you are saying I don't feel the same about ROne. I just don't want anyone to infer that I don't feel 100% the same about ROne as you obviously. Just wanted to clear that up. Sorry in advance if that's not what you intended. Anyway, here it is:

Sorry. Not my intent at all.

I have since found his quote in post #6 of this thread. There has been much tweaking and reported satisfaction since then. But only ROne could say for sure what he believes now. Perhaps he now prefers the Pan 900.

Shelly

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Back to Comcast. Farewell Comcast, now back to Dish 120+HD. Farewell Dish.

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post #101 of 1081 Old 11-13-2005, 03:59 PM
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"Perhaps he now prefers the Pan 900."-shelly

That would be referred to as a "low blow"

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post #102 of 1081 Old 11-13-2005, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shelly View Post

Sorry. Not my intent at all.

I have since found his quote in post #6 of this thread. There has been much tweaking and reported satisfaction since then. But only ROne could say for sure what he believes now. Perhaps he now prefers the Pan 900.

Shelly

Yep, not a problem. Yeah, maybe I'll get the Pan 900. I really was just making an inquirey before I buy to get the definative answer at this point from ROne. I recalled he said that previously about the Z3 and while he has posted some saticfactory results since, he hasn't exaclty retracted that statement or said anything glowing to indicate that he feels the Z4 is now tweaked to the point where it's much better. I'm sure I'll get the Z4 in the next month, but I want to be sure since it's going to cost me more (theater budget is ultra tight as it is, yet don't want to skimp on the most important part).

-Todd
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post #103 of 1081 Old 11-13-2005, 05:07 PM
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Just wanted to report back that I resolved my black level setting problem that I had. I upgraded the firmware on my Oppo and that fixed it. The baseline black level was not correct on the Oppo before the firmware upgrade. Dark movies look twice as good now that I can actually see detail in the dark scenes. Imagine that! I am absolutely thrilled with the picture quality now. I don't feel like I've given up a thing in DVD picture quality in comparison to my 4805 anymore. My movies look just as good as they did before on the 4805 and HDTV looks even better. I am totally satisfied with the upgrade and know that I will be even more so once the 360 arrives next week.
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post #104 of 1081 Old 11-14-2005, 12:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Guys - to clear up the Z4 or Z3 - many people keep asking me this ...

First of all - do not base your purchasing decisions on my opinion. I don't want to be responsible for your expectations - you should discover that yourself.

I also post on a british AVforum where I did state my initial feelings were I wanted my Z3 back - this was based on a basic calibration. I didn't think the Z4 was enough better than the Z3.

Contrast figures bear this out in terms of useable D65 contrast, both machines are about the same 1400:1. That coupled with what i believe to be better ANSI contrast and Not a hint of VB on the Z4 makes it a better projector.

However - FOR ME - there is not enough difference between the projectors for the money - simple as that.

My bottom line is - if you can get a z3 and want to save some money, do it. If you want the latest and the best and you don't mind spending the extra money get a Z4.

They are not worlds apart when tweaked.

It comes down to cash.

I could happily live with the Z4 or the Z3, but as I have now put the money into the Z4 and would lose money swapping around again (and the hope we might get more out of it) I will be keeping my Z4.

There may be a slight chance I will get my old Z3 back to play with and I can do an A/B comparison to see what I think when together - but don't hold your breath.

Does this clear it up?

Hope so - then let's move on.

AE2000here.


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post #105 of 1081 Old 11-14-2005, 12:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acegamer View Post

Just wanted to report back that I resolved my black level setting problem that I had. I upgraded the firmware on my Oppo and that fixed it. The baseline black level was not correct on the Oppo before the firmware upgrade. Dark movies look twice as good now that I can actually see detail in the dark scenes. Imagine that! I am absolutely thrilled with the picture quality now.

Ace - glad that's what it has come down to.

Hopefully this will filter through to other people with that set-up.

AE2000here.


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post #106 of 1081 Old 11-14-2005, 02:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acegamer View Post

Just wanted to report back that I resolved my black level setting problem that I had. I upgraded the firmware on my Oppo and that fixed it. The baseline black level was not correct on the Oppo before the firmware upgrade. Dark movies look twice as good now that I can actually see detail in the dark scenes. Imagine that! I am absolutely thrilled with the picture quality now. I don't feel like I've given up a thing in DVD picture quality in comparison to my 4805 anymore. My movies look just as good as they did before on the 4805 and HDTV looks even better. I am totally satisfied with the upgrade and know that I will be even more so once the 360 arrives next week.

Would you be so kind and post your settings for the Oppo (esp. brightness, contrast etc. / Picture settings).
Thanks!

Joerg
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post #107 of 1081 Old 11-14-2005, 03:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROne View Post

Guys - to clear up the Z4 or Z3 - many people keep asking me this ...

First of all - do not base your purchasing decisions on my opinion. I don't want to be responsible for you expectation - you should discover that yourself.

I also post on a british AVforum where I did state my initial feelings were I wanted my Z3 back - this was based on a basic calibration. I didn't think the Z4 was enough better than the Z3.

Contrast figures bear this out in terms of useable D65 contrast, both machines are about the same 1400:1. That coupled with what i believe to be better ANSI contrast and Not a hint of VB on the Z4 makes it a better projector.

However - FOR ME - there is not enough difference between the projectors for the money - simple as that.

My bottom line is - if you can get a z3 and want to save some money, do it. If you want the latest and the best and you don't mind spending the extra money get a Z4.

They are not worlds apart when tweaked.

It comes down to cash.

I could happily live with the Z4 or the Z3, but as I have now put the money into the Z4 and would lose money swapping around again (and the hope we might get more out of it) I will be keeping my Z4.

There may be a slight chance I will get my old Z3 back to play with and I can do an A/B comparison to see what I think when together - but don't hold your breath.

Does this clear it up?

Hope so - then let's move on.

Thanks ROne!! That helps me a great deal. It wasn't so much confusion as to what you had said (I knew what you said here as I've read all your posts), but just how you really felt on that subject since doing 3 - 4 weeks worth of Z4 tweaking. With all the wonderful information you give us, I honestly think it is very important information to give your updated opinion and really isn't a break from the topic as much as a logical update. You actually made the comments about wanting the Z3 back in this forum as well so it's very helpful to me & I hope others to get this updated view point. We appreciate all the info you give us a great deal.

I know I won't base things 100% on what your results were, but understand that in the city I live in, I have absolutely no possibility of comparing the two in person...none. There are no Sanyo dealers within 4 hours of my house and because of that, I must make my purchase 'blind' and must rely on reviews & end user opinion. I'd love nothing more than see the two side by side tweaked out on my own, but since that's not happening, your findings weigh heavily on my choice along with other reviews.

I still think I'll get the Z4, but this puts it in perspective & gives me something to think about. I agree, let's move on & see what the Z4 can do going forward.

Thanks again for all that you do here.
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post #108 of 1081 Old 11-14-2005, 03:57 AM
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Dweezilz - and others, who ask for comparison Z3/Z4

I had the Z3 at home for a few days, before I got my Z4 (my dealer was so kind to offer me a cine4home calibrated Z3 to make waiting for the Z4 a bit easier).
Since I gave the Z3 back, when my Z4 arrived, I never could compare them face to face, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

What I remember vividly, though, was, that I could see pixel-structure of the Z3 on my screen (2.40 m wide, seating distance approx. 4 meters). I could see it especially during long pans and on moving objects (don't know why, but it was clearly better visible for whatever reason). That effect is completely gone with the Z4. Even if for example cine4home claims, that the bigger fillfactor of the new D5 panels in the Z4 is not a visible improvement, I'd like to object. My personal feeling is, that the new panels do in fact add to the performance, make the picture a bit brighter, clearer and pixel-structure less visible.

Vertical banding has not been an issue with 3 units I saw in performance - you might draw the conclusion, that Sanyo has a good grip on production quality control compared to competitors, who showed absolutely different production quality.

Out of the box, I had the impression, that the Z4 had a great calibration in "Kino Hell" (which is the first cinema preset, I think, in the english menue, it is creative cinema). For everyday use and for the "non-tweaker", you sure will get good results with that setting. The Auto-Iris behaviour is great there, I did hardly ever notice it.

As for the fan-noise, I have the strange feeling, that the Z4 is a tiny bit noisier. But: grain of salt - I never had the two units sitting next to each other at home. I was so surprised by the silence of the Z3, that maybe, I am just being too sensitive about the Z4 now. Or: the vent of the Z4 is directed more towards my seating position (I sit only 50 cm away from that vent!!!) Or: the frequency-spectrum of the noise falls into an area, where I am a bit more sensitive to... But: the unit IS silent, very silent compared to other products on the market.

The automatic shutter door is a good feature, as well.

Whether you want to invest more $ in the Z4 over a used or cheap new Z3 - hard to answer. For me, personally: yes. Especially because of the described pixel-structure-effects I saw, the great menue and the possibility to tweak the unit a tad more than the Z3.

I hope, I could give you a bit more information for your decision.


Regards
joerg
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post #109 of 1081 Old 11-14-2005, 04:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again for all that you do here.

Happy to help - I guess I just don't want to be blamed for a mis-purchase, but I suppose in your situation - any information is better than nothing!

AE2000here.


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post #110 of 1081 Old 11-14-2005, 06:51 AM
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I had a quick go last night and I didn't find [a filter] to be much improved over living with auto-iris.

Which filter were you using?
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post #111 of 1081 Old 11-14-2005, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROne View Post

However - FOR ME - there is not enough difference between the projectors for the money - simple as that.

My bottom line is - if you can get a z3 and want to save some money, do it. If you want the latest and the best and you don't mind spending the extra money get a Z4.

They are not worlds apart when tweaked.

ROne is correct, you cannot base your decision on any one person's opinion. Decide what features are most important to you, there are enough differences between the various projectors that the decision is usually made for you. For me, the longer throw of the Z4 was a must...the Z3 throw was way to short for me. For you, if picture quality is the only deciding factor, the z3 may be the better choice if you were able to find one.

Since the Z4 has turned out to be pretty much my only option in this price category, i'm just happy as hell that we have ROne to help us get the most out of our projector.

-Bret

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post #112 of 1081 Old 11-14-2005, 10:12 AM
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I was under the impression (probably mistaken) that the user defined inputs could be different for each input source. I set up Rone's settings and saved them to a user input using component inputs. Today, I got a HR10-250 with a working HDMI port and went to set up these settings again using HDMI. But my user input from component was already the same on HDMI.
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post #113 of 1081 Old 11-14-2005, 10:13 AM
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ROne is correct, you cannot base your decision on any one person's opinion. Decide what features are most important to you, there are enough differences between the various projectors that the decision is usually made for you. For me, the longer throw of the Z4 was a must...the Z3 throw was way to short for me. For you, if picture quality is the only deciding factor, the z3 may be the better choice if you were able to find one.

Since the Z4 has turned out to be pretty much my only option in this price category, i'm just happy as hell that we have ROne to help us get the most out of our projector.

Hey, no doubt about it. If it was a features issue, I'd agree. Figure out what features are needed for you & go with the projector the best suites your needs. That said, for me, it's not about features...it's about the bottom line PQ. Since I can't compare with actual Z3's & Z4's in my house, that is why I need to rely almost completely on reviews & word of mouth which is what I'm doing. I think I've already come to the conclusion that for out of the box goodness, the Z4 is the one for me & will be worth the extra cash in the long run. I'm guessing that the tweaks will only get better & the PQ seems to be at the very least a bit better than the Z3 even now without filter or much tweaking. Plus, as my wife told me yestereday...get the Z4 because if you get the Z3 now & in 6 months you want the Z4, you aren't getting it. HA! I guess my choice has been made easier.
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post #114 of 1081 Old 11-14-2005, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Which filter were you using?

I tried a CC30R.

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post #115 of 1081 Old 11-14-2005, 12:05 PM
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I tried a CC30R.

No interference with lens door then? That's good to hear.
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post #116 of 1081 Old 11-14-2005, 02:56 PM
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Hi

I have been playing around tonight with both ROne's settings and those on avbuzz.com to make them fit to my Oppo 971H. I'd like to share them here and am looking forward to any feedback you'd like to give.
My Oppo 971H with the latest firmware is set to brightness -7 and contrast +3. This, combined with Sanyos HDMI-setting "L2" seems to give better results than Oppos brightnes set to -3 and contrast to 0 and Sanyo's HDMI input set to "L1". Maybe, the key really is the difference between PC RGB and Studio RGB.

First of all, ROne's Oppo-modified settings
Based on Living-preset
HDMI L2
brightness 0
Contrast +6
Note: try +10 in conjunction with contrast +1 for better distinction between blacks, I found this setting by adjusting BTB and WTW with the Peter Finzel PAL-testdisc. With that setting, you loose quite some of the impressive deepness and blackness of ROne's settings, but add more detail in dark parts of the picture
Color +3
Tint +3
Color temp. user
Red +10
Green -1
Blue -8
Sharpness 0 (set it to your liking up to -6, which sets Edge Enhancment to Zero)
Lamp control A1 (if you don't need super-impressive brightness levels, you can try the lowest power save lamp mode)
Gamma +1
Lens iris -30
Lamp iris Auto
Auto black Strech Off
Contrast enhancement Off
Transient improvement L1 (or off)

Gain R +2
Gain G +3
Gain B -5
Offset R -15
Offset G -13
Offset B -6
Gamma R, G, B = 0

Then I did some additional color management with Star Wars III:

1.) Last scene, where they hand over the baby: chose the baby's face, adjusted the skintone
2.) After the big opening battle, Skywalker arrives at a big town and enters a big hall to meet Padme for the first time. In the beginning of the scene, there is a red carpet in the background of the group. Choose that, make it a bit more red and stand out
3.) Beginning of same scene, when the ship comes in (or another daylight sky scene): made the blue sky a bit more dark-blue
4.) Padme and Anakin are sitting in a room during daytime on a big sofa and discussing things - right behind Padme is an off-white column. Made that a bit lighter and contrastier.
5.) Somewhere around that scene, she was sitting next to a brown-ish cushion. I chose that and adjusted it, looking at the effects of that adjustment to the overall picture, skintones, sky and clouds in the back especially. That made some additional refinement.

I ended up with a picture, that was impressively black and in daytime scenes very bright and brilliant. The downside was, that I loose some detail in blacks. As I described above, you might correct that with different values of brightness and contrast

------------------------ Next setting --------------------------------

Based on Creative Cinema
HDMI L2
brightness +2
Contrast +5
Color +4
Tint +3
Color temp. Mid
Red 0
Green 0
Blue 0
Sharpness 0 (set it to your liking up to -6)
Lamp control A2
Gamma +1
Lens iris -50
Lamp iris Auto
Auto black Strech Off
Contrast enhancement Off
Transient improvement L1 (or off)
No Color management so far

Gain R -5
Gain G -9
Gain B +3
Offset R -15
Offset G +15
Offset B -2
Gamma R +5
Gamma G -5
Gamma B -3


This setting is not as impressive as ROne's, I end up with a picture, that compared to ROne's setting seems to bit a bit dimmer, but also a bit more balanced, both regarding color and grayscale. If I say more balanced, then this is a strictly visual impression, based on my personal preferences and in no way founded in any measurement - my taste may be way off a perfect measurement...

An important note for PAL users regarding the OPPO: even with the current firmware, the Oppo forgets your brightness and contrast settings everytime you stop/resume a PAL DVD or insert a new PAL DVD. You have to readjust BOTH brightness and contrast by selecting it, adjust a step down and then a step up to the value....

Looking forward to your comments

Joerg
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post #117 of 1081 Old 11-15-2005, 12:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Nice work Joerg - creative cinema certainly is a bit more balanced by the way of colour decoding - it doesn't quite need the hefty use of the colour management tool.

I think in living the colour is boosted quite badly hence the use of colour management tool to bring it into line.

You are also correct in calling the creative cinema preset a bit dimmer, it was about 10% less contrast than living but requires less work to get it to D65.

ROne.

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post #118 of 1081 Old 11-15-2005, 01:38 AM
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Hi
...
Joerg

great work dvdr. as i also have the oppo (bbk) player i'm looking forward to try your settings on my Z4. thank you for your tip about the oppo forgetting its settings with PAL DVDs, too.
i actually haven't even noticed this yet
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post #119 of 1081 Old 11-15-2005, 06:58 AM
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I've recieved my Z4 today, and I'm not able to get the fan speed down, even if I use low lamp mode.
This is much louder than my old Z2.

What setting have I missed - it must be possible to get the fan speed down.
I read something about this issue yesterday - but now I cannot find the article anymore....damn.

Someone, please tell me what settings will lower the fan speed - thanks.
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post #120 of 1081 Old 11-15-2005, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by rivmin View Post

I've recieved my Z4 today, and I'm not able to get the fan speed down, even if I use low lamp mode.
This is much louder than my old Z2.

What setting have I missed - it must be possible to get the fan speed down.
I read something about this issue yesterday - but now I cannot find the article anymore....damn.

Someone, please tell me what settings will lower the fan speed - thanks.

the lamp mode should be only setting affecting the fan speed.
if your Z4 is louder than your Z2 in low lamp mode then i guess it is faulty.
the Z2 should be way louder than the Z4 (i also had a Z2 before)
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