Burn-In on an LCD projector??? (panny 700) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 74 Old 02-27-2006, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Have a Panasonic AE700, prolly 700 hours on it's second bulb (first one went out at 500... ). Anyway, it's connected via component to my Comcast HD-DVR cable box, and through VGA to my computer.


Watched a 4x3 movie last night on digital cable (Braveheart, so ~ 3 hours). When I flipped the input over to VGA for my computer (which is displaying 16x9 1280x720), I noticed the sides of the destop had a very distinct blue tint to them, right where the 'black bars' were from the movie. This is the first time I've ever seen anything like it. After about 30 minutes of PC usage, the 'bars' seemed to go away, and the screen was normal again.

However, during the PC usage, I watched a 20 minute video in Windows Media Player, but not fullscreen. After closing WMP, I noticed the same blue tinted 'box', but this time the same spot that the video was playing in. The rest of the screen, that was only displaying static images, was unaffected.

Again, this eventually went away, but it's very concerning. The blue-tinted boxes and bars were visible across all inputs, so it's gotta be something in the projector itself.
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post #2 of 74 Old 02-28-2006, 10:40 AM
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Be VERY careful. What people (like me) are finding out the Panny 700--LCD Burn in IS real. The idea that LCD's can't burn in is a complete myth. I ruined my 700 this way. In fact, I just got done talking to the repair shop, and he said my blue LCD panel has been permamently damaged from excessive 4:3 use. It exhibits the exact same symptoms as your projector, but the bars don't go away.

I don't know what to do now. I love my projector, and the rebate on the 900 runs through today so I'm thinking of upgrading to the 900 and just not using 4:3 mode on it. But EVERYONE BE CAREFUL--extended 4:3 mode viewing WILL RUIN your LCD projector, at least the Panny 700.

Does anyone think I could get any traction with Panasonic on this issue? I am outside of the 1-year warranty by about 4 months.
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post #3 of 74 Old 02-28-2006, 11:25 AM
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I used to think that LCD pannels are immune to burn-in. Not anymore. The LCD screens at the internet cafe that i'm sitting right now suffers from the same symptom. This is most allarming. Even the manual of the 900 i'm having says it. And let's say that, OK, we're not projecting 4:3 in our pj. What about 2,35:1? Those movies have large black bars. Isn't there danger of destroying the panels? What puzlles me though is why my old Sony 400qm with more than 4000 hours didn't have any problems with extensive 2.35:1 projecting...

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post #4 of 74 Old 02-28-2006, 11:42 AM
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Yes, I would assume that 2:35:1 is likely to eventually burn in as well. Very disturbing.

I just ordered a Panny 900 to take advantage of the $400 rebate. But my usage is going to be MUCH different with this one. No more 4:3 TV watching for me. And less usage in general to avoid the high bulb price.
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post #5 of 74 Old 02-28-2006, 12:10 PM
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I don't know why Panasonic projectors seem to have this. My (unreliable) memory seems to recall far more stories about Panny LCD panel problems than any other yet they use the same panels as Sanyo, Hitachi and Epson. Do they have a consistent panel cooling problem in the AE range?
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post #6 of 74 Old 02-28-2006, 01:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Did a few more tests last night - What I find interesting on mine, is that it take an incredibly short time to cause these "ghost" images (seems to be only affecting the blue panel).

For instance, my background pic on my desktop is mostly greys, with two darker shapes in the middle. After leaving the PJ on the b/g image for only 10 minutes(!), I could see the two shosted shapes when I switched to another completely differen screen. Why would this be happening so fricken fast?!? How could the image be burning into the panels so quickly (if that's even possible)?
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post #7 of 74 Old 02-28-2006, 01:18 PM
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All of my problems were in the Blue panels as well. There was a very VERY slight darkening of the green panels that I would never have even noticed had the blue pannels not been damaged. The blue ones were the ones that were significantly darkened.
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post #8 of 74 Old 03-01-2006, 01:44 AM
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What out, as the eyes are also a factor in the short tests.

Just look outside a window and they turn away and close your eyes - the window still there as a colored ghost on your retina.

Or read a text for 5 minutes, white letters on black screen, and look away - you'll see horizontal stripes on your eyes for minutes.

I'm of course not saying the burn-in isn't real; just stating that eyes are strange things as well

Reminds me of that page they used to fax around in the 90's - you had to stare at it for a minute, then look at a white wall - you could see Jesus in a black circle, very disturbing

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post #9 of 74 Old 03-01-2006, 06:09 AM
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Very strange. I have a 700 with over 1700 hrs on it. 2nd bulb, the first blew at 1400, natch.

I watch a good deal of 2.35 and 1.33 material -- it is rare for me to find movies or anime in 1.78.

Havn't noticed classic burn-in, where there is a solid demarcation, a line if you will.

What I do notice is this projector has pretty horrible color uniformity, doesn't matter what format you're watching. Most noticable on black and white movies. The right edge of the image (be it widescreen or square) has a blue tinge to it, the left has a reddish tinge to it.

But I wouldn't catalog this as 'burn in'. Just as "horrible color uniformity'

I suspect what I"m seeing is some sort of panel or optical misalignment.

At this point, I don't care -- as soon as c2fine hits the market, I'm getting one, and will retain the 700 as a cold spare.
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post #10 of 74 Old 03-01-2006, 08:26 AM
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Is the projector displaying image retention (temporary) or actual burn in (permanent)?

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post #11 of 74 Old 03-01-2006, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesAHall View Post


Does anyone think I could get any traction with Panasonic on this issue? I am outside of the 1-year warranty by about 4 months.

If you bought this item with a major credit card, you will probably get your money back for the projector. Almost all cards double your warranty up to one year. American Express does everything over the phone, with no paperwork. All you have to do is get an estimate. If the item is unrepairable, your money is prompty refunded. All new purchases are covered. This is one of the most valuable and underused CC benefits.

MY pany HT-900 home theatre broke and the entire price was refunded after the repair shop said it was hopeless.
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post #12 of 74 Old 03-01-2006, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DB2 View Post

Is the projector displaying image retention (temporary) or actual burn in (permanent)?

That's a much better way of wording it than I could come up with. It's definitely temporary in my case. The ghosted images are 'retained', for lack of better word, for several minutes (~10) before they aren't noticable anymore.
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post #13 of 74 Old 03-01-2006, 12:31 PM
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I'll check into that LCDGuy. Thanks!

DB2--this is definitely permanent damage. I tried running full-screen white (as suggested several places online to fix LCD damage) and it seemed to reduce the burn-in by a little bit, but not enough to call it fixed by any means.
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post #14 of 74 Old 03-01-2006, 01:08 PM
 
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There's supposed to be a pic shift facility in the secret menu which when turned on alters the image by one pixel every minute ( at least i think its one pixel ) anyways the purpose of this is to stop screen burn in..... perhaps yours is turned off in the secret menu.

I'm on my second bulb and approximately 1300hours of use and i haven't suffered from this problem ( just dust blobs on the panels which i have cleaned out myself )
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post #15 of 74 Old 03-01-2006, 02:00 PM
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Altering the picture by one pixel every minute isn't going to help. The black 4:3 bars are WAY wider than one pixel. Even if you shifted 10 pixels, most of that area will always be showing black.

I did some calculations, and I was probably up over 2000 hours, about 2/3rds of which was 4:3 watching, when I first saw the problem. So all of you people who are watching a ton of 4:3 but haven't seen anything, be warned--it might not show up until you've used the projector for a while. I didn't notice mine at all, and then one day it was there clear as day and horribly distracting.
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post #16 of 74 Old 03-02-2006, 05:19 AM
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Just wondering... How many hours of continuous use can cause the problem? I mean, if you use the pj only for 3-4 hours to watch a movie, isn't mutch. Even with crt pjs that wouldn't be a problem. Maybe the problem can be caused only if you overdo it. More than 6-7 hours maybe? Does anyone have noticed it within the time limits of a movie? THAT would be most scaring...

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post #17 of 74 Old 03-02-2006, 07:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesAHall View Post

Altering the picture by one pixel every minute isn't going to help. The black 4:3 bars are WAY wider than one pixel. Even if you shifted 10 pixels, most of that area will always be showing black.

My understanding of how it works is that the whole image shifts by one pixel thus this avoids screen burn... so every single pixel onscreen shifts unless the facility has been turned off in the secret menu.
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post #18 of 74 Old 03-02-2006, 08:40 AM
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Could burn in be a heat related problem? It seems to my non electrical engineering mind that anything that increases the heat of the PJ could affect the panels too and not just the life of the bulb. This would include ceiling placement (it's warner up there) and PJ placement near anything that blocks its air flow. I mention this only because most of us don't experience burn in so I think it must be caused by variations in parts or the way the PJ is used.
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post #19 of 74 Old 03-03-2006, 01:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

My understanding of how it works is that the whole image shifts by one pixel thus this avoids screen burn... so every single pixel onscreen shifts unless the facility has been turned off in the secret menu.

Again, how would that help with the black bars? I can see how it would help with static text or images from a video game. But the black bars are very large. Even if you shift the image around, most of the pixels showing the black bars will STILL be showing the black bars. If the problem stems from a particular pixel showing black too much of the time, then shifting the black bars around a pixel won't help.

Still, I'm curious--where is this magical setting displayed? I certainly never turned it off intentionally, nor have I heard anyone else talking about it. I've heard of that kind of thing on plasmas, but not on an LCD projector.

I'm still running my damaged 700 until my 900 shows up, and I'm seeing more and more strangeness from my blue LCD panel. The green and red seem to be fine, but the blue one is all messed up now. I also noticed that my flicker settings, which I had held constant for 8 months, all of a sudden needed to be drastically different for blue (way, WAY higher than it used to be, by almost double). So now I'm wondering if somehow my blue LCD panel just was defective and went bad on me. Maybe the burn in I'm seeing only happened because the panel was defective? Who knows. I used my PJ a lot more than most people, so we should know if there is an inherent failure in the 700's LCD blocks in the next year as other people catch up to my usage amounts. Hopefully I just got a lemon and everyone else will be fine.

In the meantime, I am going to be a lot more careful with my 900 when it shows up.
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post #20 of 74 Old 03-03-2006, 08:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesAHall View Post

Again, how would that help with the black bars? I can see how it would help with static text or images from a video game. But the black bars are very large. Even if you shift the image around, most of the pixels showing the black bars will STILL be showing the black bars. If the problem stems from a particular pixel showing black too much of the time, then shifting the black bars around a pixel won't help.

Still, I'm curious--where is this magical setting displayed? I certainly never turned it off intentionally, nor have I heard anyone else talking about it. I've heard of that kind of thing on plasmas, but not on an LCD projector.

I'm still running my damaged 700 until my 900 shows up, and I'm seeing more and more strangeness from my blue LCD panel. The green and red seem to be fine, but the blue one is all messed up now. I also noticed that my flicker settings, which I had held constant for 8 months, all of a sudden needed to be drastically different for blue (way, WAY higher than it used to be, by almost double). So now I'm wondering if somehow my blue LCD panel just was defective and went bad on me. Maybe the burn in I'm seeing only happened because the panel was defective? Who knows. I used my PJ a lot more than most people, so we should know if there is an inherent failure in the 700's LCD blocks in the next year as other people catch up to my usage amounts. Hopefully I just got a lemon and everyone else will be fine.

In the meantime, I am going to be a lot more careful with my 900 when it shows up.

I agree about the pixel shifting - doesn't sound like it even truly exists, nor would it help if it did.

I certainly hope my unit isn't showing the early signs of having the same problem as yours. I'd hate to be forced to upgrade. I however won't be buying Panasonic again.
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post #21 of 74 Old 03-04-2006, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LCDGUY View Post

If you bought this item with a major credit card, you will probably get your money back for the projector. Almost all cards double your warranty up to one year. American Express does everything over the phone, with no paperwork. All you have to do is get an estimate. If the item is unrepairable, your money is prompty refunded. All new purchases are covered. This is one of the most valuable and underused CC benefits.

MY pany HT-900 home theatre broke and the entire price was refunded after the repair shop said it was hopeless.

This really works. I got a new bulb for my AE700 this way after it was 2 months past the 90 mfg's warranty period. Had t provide docurmentation but Visa did send me a check for the approx $400 I spent on line for the bulb.

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post #22 of 74 Old 03-04-2006, 10:11 AM
 
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I agree about the pixel shifting - doesn't sound like it even truly exists, nor would it help if it did.

Ok for the last time PicShift as its called exists and why wouldn't it help ? why would it be there if it didn't help ? So Panasonic spent all this money on research and development and it doesn't help ........ hmmm who to believe ..... you or people who have spent millions on research and tested these projectors.

Go to the main AE700 Tweak thread and open up the service manual its in PDF form so an Adobe Acrobat reader is needed..... In the manual it tells you about PicShift and if you check out that tweak thread i'm sure you will see others talking about it.
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post #23 of 74 Old 03-04-2006, 10:43 AM
 
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Here's a screenshot from the service manual.

I don't know if every Panasonic Projector has this facility in the secret menu or not but i assume even if its not showing in the secret menu that the projector still has it but its possibly always switched on for those that don't have it in the menu.

I personally think the problem is heat related and not burn in.



Update to this post: Here's a link to the main AE700 thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archi...65849-p-7.html

Note Aussie Bob's post talks about PicShift.

Aussie Bob04-15-05, 01:49 AM
Ah! That's right... thanks canthony15. Which reminds me...

"PIC SHIFT"
Again from the manual:

"- PIC.SHIFT
Switching ON/OFF the antipersistence function
- Shifts the picture slightly (by one dot) when every 60 minutes.
(one dot shifting three times, one dot shifting three times in reverse direction, and repeats them alternately.)"

Yeah, right.

This is obviously to protect the LCD panels from pattern persistence for those who fall asleep in front of the projector during a boring movie, waking up only when they get sick and tired of hearing the same DVD Main Menu music for the three-hundreth time.

Probably a good thing to have it "ON", as Panasonic tell me that LCD panels are $1,000 Australian EACH to replace.


I think later produced versions of this projector automatically have PicShift so there is no turning it on or off and it might not be in the secret menu anymore.
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post #24 of 74 Old 03-04-2006, 07:25 PM
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My $0.02: It's not front projection but I see this on all my LCD monitors. It's some kind of panel ghosting and I've never noticed it becoming a permanent problem. Then again, I'm not blasting a 250-watt lamp through them either.
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post #25 of 74 Old 03-06-2006, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

Here's a screenshot from the service manual.

I don't know if every Panasonic Projector has this facility in the secret menu or not but i assume even if its not showing in the secret menu that the projector still has it but its possibly always switched on for those that don't have it in the menu.

I personally think the problem is heat related and not burn in.



Update to this post: Here's a link to the main AE700 thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archi...65849-p-7.html

Note Aussie Bob's post talks about PicShift.

Aussie Bob04-15-05, 01:49 AM
Ah! That's right... thanks canthony15. Which reminds me...

"PIC SHIFT"
Again from the manual:

"- PIC.SHIFT
Switching ON/OFF the antipersistence function
- Shifts the picture slightly (by one dot) when every 60 minutes.
(one dot shifting three times, one dot shifting three times in reverse direction, and repeats them alternately.)"

Yeah, right.

This is obviously to protect the LCD panels from pattern persistence for those who fall asleep in front of the projector during a boring movie, waking up only when they get sick and tired of hearing the same DVD Main Menu music for the three-hundreth time.

Probably a good thing to have it "ON", as Panasonic tell me that LCD panels are $1,000 Australian EACH to replace.


I think later produced versions of this projector automatically have PicShift so there is no turning it on or off and it might not be in the secret menu anymore.

Again, how would it help if the black bars on 4:3 material are causing the problem? Seriously, think about it - how would shifting pixels by one notch help AT ALL, when 98% of the affected pixels (in the bars) are being shifted from BLACK to BLACK!!!
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Again, how would it help if the black bars on 4:3 material are causing the problem? Seriously, think about it - how would shifting pixels by one notch help AT ALL, when 98% of the affected pixels (in the bars) are being shifted from BLACK to BLACK!!!

I'm not an expert but its got to be there for a reason i mean think about it if it was a problem on LCD projectors why is there not more reports of screen burn in over these last few years ?

Why not phone Panasonic or ask one of their service engineers why its there or even ask someone more knowledgable on these boards..... give Aussie Bob a PM he seems to know something about it.
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post #27 of 74 Old 03-06-2006, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

I'm not an expert but its got to be there for a reason i mean think about it if it was a problem on LCD projectors why is there not more reports of screen burn in over these last few years

Um, maybe because LCD projectors only became affordable for the general masses very recently? And of the people that own a 16:9 projector, probably very few of them run tons of 4:3 material through them?

Look, if you don't believe me, I can send you a picture of my screen. The damage is permanent and obvious.

Now, I can't tell you if it is "burn in" or if something else in my projector failed. Maybe the blue LCD panel failed or something. But the end result looks just like burn-in, and is obviously related directly to 4:3 viewing.
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post #28 of 74 Old 03-06-2006, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

Ok for the last time PicShift as its called exists and why wouldn't it help ? why would it be there if it didn't help ? So Panasonic spent all this money on research and development and it doesn't help ........ hmmm who to believe ..... you or people who have spent millions on research and tested these projectors.

Go to the main AE700 Tweak thread and open up the service manual its in PDF form so an Adobe Acrobat reader is needed..... In the manual it tells you about PicShift and if you check out that tweak thread i'm sure you will see others talking about it.

Just because it's available doesn't mean it's better.

Upscaling DVD players have a questionable value and the lower quality ones often degrade the overall picture.

Bass boost? You mean added low end distortion? Yay.

Insurance in black jack? Gotta be a good thing right?

Just because it's there doesn't always mean it's good.

And as you pointed out, it's hidden in a secret menu. If it was so good why would it be hidden in a secret menu?

But as for the point of burn in...

So let's look at the pixel dead center at the top of the screen. It's sitting well into the black bar.

What would cause it to burn in? If it were to stay black for a long time.

Let's say every 3 seconds the pixels shift.

That means every 3 seconds that pixel is going to go from being black to being.... black...

Next shift...

Still black...

Again....

Still black...

Repeat.

End result? Pixel stays black forever.

What happens to pixels that stay black? They burn in.

The only pixels that might get some relief from this are three pixels along the very edge of the screen which I guess might turn off when the edge of the screen shifts and there is no more information for them to display?

So at best you would still have burn in bars at the top and bottom, but on the sides maybe the burn in bars would be kind of softer.

It's kind of like hopping from one fire into the next. You never spend long in any particular fire, but the result is you still get burned.

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post #29 of 74 Old 03-09-2006, 03:05 AM
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Ok, I've got a new theory about what is going on.

I still think this is burn-in. However, I DON'T think it came from excessive 4:3 viewing. I think my LCD panels, specifically my blue one, failed in some way.

The 4:3 black bars were just the first symptom, because I noticed them after a marathon viewing of the Olympics in 4:3. Now I am getting all kinds of image retention on the blue LCD panel, even after just a few MINUTES of viewing a static image. It is really bad. It goes away if I shut the box down, but just having something static on the screen for a minute or two leaves artifacts in the blue LCD for some time.

I KNOW this was not happening at any other time. And that would explain why the 4:3 black bar burn-in seemed to appear out of nowhere. I don't think it is some sort of cumulative thing. I think I had some massive failure of the blue LCD panel that made it ultra succeptable to burn-in or image retention, and then watching 4:3 material for several hours in a row permanently put the black bars into the LCD panels. I think the 4:3 bars were just the first visible symptom of the greater problem--there is something really wrong with the LCD panel.

I wonder as we see more people getting past the 2000-2500 hour mark with their 700s if we are going to see this more often. I'm wondering if maybe the LCD panels are succeptable to failure.

Anyway, the good news is that Visa said they will cover the cost of the repair even though it is outside of the warranty period by a few months (thanks LCDGuy!). Of course, my Panny 900 just showed up today. So now I have to decide if I'm going to keep it, or just fix the 700 and send it back.

Hopefully I just had a bad LCD panel and more people won't see this as the 700's age. But it sounds like exactly the same problem that Jrod is seeing-- I was just unfortunate to leave the black bars up long enough to burn them in. But I suspect once your LCD is showing image retention like mine and JRod's, you are already hosed. However, I'm thinking that the problem may be random and have nothing to do with the material you are watching--it is just that 4:3 viewing seems to show the symptoms the fastest.

Actually, I just thought of one other thing. I hope JRod reads this post again. JRod, did you happen to turn up your Brightness setting at all? About the only thing I did around the time of my failure is turn up my Brightness (based on a calibration for a game on my XBox 360). I'm thinking maybe running at the high brightness level damaged the LCD Panel. That would be why I never saw the problem before and why most people aren't seeing it. If JRod turned his brightness up too, that would be pretty interesting info.
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post #30 of 74 Old 03-09-2006, 04:59 AM
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Keep the 900!!! You already have it.

Get the 700 fixed and ebay that baby with disclosure that you had the panels fixed.
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