Optoma HD70. The new budget king. - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 12:24 AM
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Well, I would like to know more about the 8 bit processing and how that affects PQ. I have the HD72 now and like it very much. I've preordered the H70 for a place I have upstate. The screenshots posted comparing 8/10 bit didn't look too good for the 8 bit. Is the 70 going to look much worse than the 72 or will the effect be subtle?
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post #272 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 01:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

While I'm at it, the HD70 is not brighter than the SP4805 referred to earlier. Taking Projector Central at their word, the HD70 measured at 398 ANSI calibrated lumens, considerably less than an SP4805.
.

I think you might be the biggest 4805 fanboy in all of the world.

While your writing down PJ Central's lumen ratings for the HD70 why don't you go read their review of the 4805 that says this:

"In low mode the real lumen output for video content was about 350 lumens, and in high lamp mode it was 450 lumens."

Regarding the HD70:

"In this mode, our test unit measured 398 ANSI lumens.". "By changing over to "Bright" mode and switching the lamp to high, light output was boosted to 756 ANSI lumens."

I don't know about you Cavu, but 350 vs 398 and 450 vs 767 lumens tells me the HD70 is brighter, especially since Guitarman got quite a bit higher of a rating for the HD70.

I pretty much guarantee this unit will be quite a bit brighter than the 4805. The 4805 is not as bright as the HD72 and the HD70 is supposedly brighter than the HD72. It shouldn't be a surprise that it's brighter than the 4805. It has a white segment afterall.
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post #273 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 02:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

Actually, as zoom increases, brightness increases and contrast ratio decreases.

The best PQ is minimum zoom.

Some people can barely see the difference between 2000:1 and 2500:1. So, going from minimum to maximum zoom probably lowers a 2500:1 contrast to about 2490:1. It's pretty much pointless to even care about. If one were THAT much of a nitpicker they'd own a CRT projector and would go from 2500:1 to 15,000-20,000:1. Now THAT is a REAL & worthwhile difference in contrast. The amount of contrast you lose with max zoom is virtually nothing and is so incredibly minimal that almost nobody could actually see a real difference and I seriously doubt anyone goes to max zoom, looks at an image, decreases the zoom all the way, moves the projector farther back to get the same image size as before and then tries to compare the two based on memory.

So, while the best picture quality might technically be at minimum zoom the two are pretty much equal to the human eyes.
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post #274 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 05:03 AM
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Not too many people are throwing $1k projectors into $20K media Rooms. Most of us are buying on the bell-curve, trying to find the best image for the least amount of money. And most of us are also understanding what it is that we are buying.

I don't necessarily think its fair (or polite for that matter) to suggest that people here aren't interested in Visual Quality, especially to ride in on the high horse, suggest in so many words that we are all idiots looking at the good when we should be focusing on the bad, and state that the 8bit process makes for cartoony digital artifacts.

If possible, point me to some links where I can see examples of these cartoony artifacts.

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post #275 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post

Not too many people are throwing $1k projectors into $20K media Rooms. Most of us are buying on the bell-curve, trying to find the best image for the least amount of money. And most of us are also understanding what it is that we are buying.

I don't necessarily think its fair (or polite for that matter) to suggest that people here aren't interested in Visual Quality, especially to ride in on the high horse, suggest in so many words that we are all idiots looking at the good when we should be focusing on the bad, and state that the 8bit process makes for cartoony digital artifacts.

If possible, point me to some links where I can see examples of these cartoony artifacts.


If you go over his posts you'll see he's the world's biggest 4805 fanboy (no offense. ). The guy has often said that 720p and and HD on a 480p unit look indentical from 2x the width, which is comical. After reading comments like that I think the 4805 may be the only projector he's ever actually seen or owned. He often comes off like he's trying to justify his purchase by putting the 4805 up on a pedastal. The fact is there are way better projectors out there than the 4805 in resolution and other important areas.

I don't think he wants to face the possibility that a $999 projector will walk all over his 4805 (and mine).
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post #276 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 06:46 AM
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speaking of the 4805. How does the offset of the HD70 compare. As it is my 4805 is about 3 inches from the ceiling. I am shooting about a 100" image. I would love to get a HD70 but am concerned the image will be too low.

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post #277 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xenon2000 View Post

I figured out full manual settings on my D70 that is now showing exactly what I see. Even got the contrast and brightness near dead on. Just took some of my HTPC desktop and of some 720P HTPC movie content and a game capture. Don't have my DVD player yet to show you from the HDMI source yet.


Sweet. Post 'em as soon as you get a chance! Thx!
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post #278 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

Sorry to rain on your parade but I posted "facts", not debating points or hypotheses.

The inexpensive lenses used on this class of projector perform exactly as I have stated: "as zoom increases, brightness increases and contrast ratio decreases".

Likewise, "brightness" and "contrast" control settings are absolute on a calibrated projector - there is only one correct setting - one does not operate them like volume controls contrary to your inference.

You can control the overall brightness of a projector by using a high/low power setting or a neutral density filter but I do not know how you can similarly "control" the contrast ratio.

Amidst all this hyperbole about the HD70, I am quite surprised that I have not heard any discussion about its major shortcoming: this projector only has 8-bit video processing. This limitation creates obvious, "cartoony" digital artifacts.

It seems offset angles are more paramount than picture quality.

While I'm at it, the HD70 is not brighter than the SP4805 referred to earlier. Taking Projector Central at their word, the HD70 measured at 398 ANSI calibrated lumens, considerably less than an SP4805.

The HD70 is a "budget" projector and, while its anticipated performance for the price seems exceptional, potential purchasers should remember that.

Yes, it's a budget projector. I don't remember hearing anyone here say that it was not. Or that it is the performance king. I am just here to confirm my experience that the HD70 is a bang-for-the-buck king. Anyone with a low budget of up to $1500 will be happy with the $999 HD70 that I think preforms just as well as the HD72 (which cost about $1500+) and other brands that cost upto $2000 and many not 720p resolution. It may be a budget projector. But it's $999 for one that I would say is king of the budget projectors and one will not be unhappy.

Well, I have owned the Infocus SP4805, the Optoma H27 and now own the HD70. And the HD70 is definately brighter than the 4805, period. If the lumens measured lower for PC testers.. then I don't know what to tell you. I don't have actual tools to measure it, but my eyes say the HD70 is brighter and I have mine turned way down in brightness.

As for your impression of 8bit vs 10 bit color processing. I completely disagree that 8bit vs 10bit is a shortcoming of the HD70 at all. The only time I see a difference is for solid colors that occur mainly in cartoons. I rarely saw any difference with 720p apple trailers, and I don't expect to with DVDs either. Heck, even most of the PC gaming I tried displayed no such differences. 8bit is not an issue here. As for brightness and contrast... no one ever said they were to be used like volume control. That would imply that you change them often. They are there for calibration and in rare cases, used to compensate for difficult sources. Such as some games are too dark because of gamma differences and single DLP limitations. Using Game mode helps but is not a HT mode.

And at $999 for a 720p projector that is silent and looks great with plenty of light output for dark theatres, 8bit is on parr and no one will be disappointed with the HD70 at $999. Again, I am shocked at the preformance. I have been comparing it to the 854x480 projectors of the Infocus SP4805 and the Optoma H27. And after seeing the HD70, I would even be as bold to say that people will enjoy it much more than any 854x480 projector, even ones with 10 bit color processing.

I own it, and I have no reason to hype up this projector. Only stating my experiences with the 3 projectors mentioned.
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post #279 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 07:33 AM
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I think we will be seeing more and more questions regarding the HD70 vs the SP4805. I purchased mine from Costco when they had their 1K sale. So far I have racked up close to 2000 hours since owning it .

The debate also revolves around whether one should purchase a replacement bulb for 1/3 the price of a HD70 or sell the SP4805 dirt cheap to someone and add some cash to buy the HD70. There is no way I can spend 5K for a new PJ, so selling the old one and taking advantage of new pricing will work. If spending 1.5K provides a lot more quality than what I have now, then it pays to be patient.

My picture quality is more dependent on the source quality as some HD programming is stunning while some network broadcasts are very bad. Sitting 16 feet from the screen I do wish to see more detail if possible, and pixels do count for something.

For many of us SP4805 owners it may also make more sense to wait some more for 1080P PJs to hit the market at lower prices. Upgrading definatevely rather than incrementally may be wiser. Guitarman's reviews and comments in this regard are vary helpful.

It may be easier to have an official HD70 post to make the research more efficient for people.

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post #280 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 07:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PKinSFLA View Post

It may be easier to have an official HD70 post to make the research more efficient for people.

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I think so, too. Mods?
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post #281 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 08:08 AM
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Yes and no. One of the issues with those large threads is that it's cumbersome to search for information inside of them.

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post #282 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 08:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephShaw View Post

Yes and no. One of the issues with those large threads is that it's cumbersome to search for information inside of them.

I know what you mean, but the number of HD70 threads are beginning to grow.
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post #283 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephShaw View Post

Yes and no. One of the issues with those large threads is that it's cumbersome to search for information inside of them.

Not really, the SP4805 Thread just takes time to read, but if you spend 4 hours reading it then you have more knowledge then god himself does on the SP4805. When your going to own one of these machines whats 4 hours worth of reading to get every benifit and solution to every question that has ever been conceaved on a the machine. I like it all in one place it may take longer but the benifit from cleaning to settings is huge. With in a day or two I knew i could clean off my own dust blobs and to get the D1 and set it up perfectly. this thread will get huge as will the HD73 that now is really starting to peak my interest also, and the big more info in a thread the better 5000+ post is fine by me.
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post #284 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrano View Post

I know what you mean, but the number of HD70 threads are beginning to grow.

True, but I've always wondered why a 150 page long threa d is supposed to make research easier. I can't imagine a better way to hide information short of encrypting it
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post #285 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 10:21 AM
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There are lots of Infocus fanboys on the forum and we all know who they are. So, take their comments with a grain of salt and look for little if any objectivity in their comments.
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post #286 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by TheLidlessEye View Post

True, but I've always wondered why a 150 page long threa d is supposed to make research easier. I can't imagine a better way to hide information short of encrypting it

One big thread makes it much easier to research because you just go to the thread, click "Search this thread", and type in your search words. All the info is in one place and you know it all relates to the projector you're interested in.

If there were 200 different threads about a projector, with no main one, you'd have to do a much more complicated search that wouldn't be nearly as effective.

For example, if you wanted to research the offset of the HD70, you'd have to do an advanced search with something like "+HD70 +offset" as your criteria. The problem with that is, what if a poster was talking about the HD70 offset but didn't use the phrase HD70 in his post because it was obvious what PJ he was talking about in the the context of the thread. The search wouldn't return the post. Likewise, if you just searched for the phrase "offset", you would get a million posts referencing offset for all models of PJs.

It's pretty simple actually.
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post #287 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 10:35 AM
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My first image. Read below for description. I will just copy paste future descriptions from the gallery.


Picture

Hmmmm.... can't get the image to show up here.



(also remember, I have the brightness turn to -8 and bulb at lowest setting. Also manual camera setting to match brightness of what I saw at 98", so I should probably have exposed the image longer for better daylight computer viewing. But trust me... it's a bright big 98" image.)

New Optoma HD70 projector testing. On white satin painted wall. 98" screen size at 145" , middle zoom level. 1280x720 HTPC as the test source for now.

This is my room with hall light on and crown molding lights at low dim. Ultra low ambient light. More screen light reflected from white walls, than other light sources.
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post #288 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xenon2000 View Post

Currently uploading images with descriptions to the AVS gallery. Is there a way to have those images show up directly in this thread?

I usually open it up full size, then copy the link listed in the image properties. Click the "insert image" icon and paste the link and you're set.
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post #289 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 10:47 AM
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That is [img]url of image[/img]

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post #290 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmcewin View Post

There are lots of Infocus fanboys on the forum and we all know who they are. So, take their comments with a grain of salt and look for little if any objectivity in their comments.

If you combine both the old and newer Infocus 4805 thread you will see over 1.25 million views and over 15,000 replies...unlikely to be broken by any product for quite some time. Why do you think it generated so much interest? Sure newer and better and cheaper PJ with higher resolution will be produced and BUT THE FACT REMAINS THAT SP4805 IS ONE OF THE BEST BUDGET SD PJ EVER, PERIOD. Fanboy or not, everybody is entitled to their opinion and cavu has stated his, which is accurate I might add, and the majority has spoken by devoting their time and energy by participating in those dedicated 4805 threads. Now let this thread be about the HD70. Carry on...

I want to hear opinions from people who don't have a dog in the fight.
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post #291 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex solomon View Post

BUT THE FACT REMAINS THAT SP4805 IN THE BEST SD PJ EVER, PERIOD. Fanboy or not, everybody is entitled to their opinion and cavu has stated his, which is accurate I might add, and the majority has spoken by devoting their time and energy by participating in those threads. Now let this thread be about the HD70. Carry on...

And so I will state my opinion as well. I have owned the SP 4805 and the Optoma H27 SD projector. And I quite disagree about the 4805 being superior. People have their opinions. But between the 4805 and H27.

Here is my opinion: 4805 fan noise was way too loud. But the image offset was easier to work with. 4805 image never looked quite right too me. Contrast and brightness were less than the H27, the fan noise on the H27 (and HD70) is ultra quiet.

Anyways. Compared to even the ultra cheap $750 Optoma H27 SD PJ, I found the H27 image, input options, and fan noise much better than the 4805. I don't know what the 4805 cost right now. But somehow I doubt it's as cheap as the H27, and H27 was better for sure.

Now back to the HD70.

Maybe I am the only previous SP 4805 user that has owned and used the 4805 and H27 recently. But I have a hard time believing that if there were others, that they would prefer the 4805 over the H27 regardless of price.

But jump up to the HD70 and I still this it's a no contest against the 4805. And as for against other 720p PJ's... well the HD70 is $999.... so hard to beat that value as of today. Maybe by Christmas...
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post #292 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 11:31 AM
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Anyone know when the price might drop slightly, it's not worth it for me to wait till christmas but a month or a few weeks might make sense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by xenon2000 View Post


But jump up to the HD70 and I still this it's a no contest against the 4805. And as for against other 720p PJ's... well the HD70 is $999.... so hard to beat that value as of today. Maybe by Christmas...

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post #293 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by xenon2000 View Post

And so I will state my opinion as well. I have owned the SP 4805 and the Optoma H27 SD projector. And I quite disagree about the 4805 being superior. People have their opinions. But between the 4805 and H27.

Here is my opinion: 4805 fan noise was way too loud. But the image offset was easier to work with. 4805 image never looked quite right too me. Contrast and brightness were less than the H27, the fan noise on the H27 (and HD70) is ultra quiet.

Anyways. Compared to even the ultra cheap $750 Optoma H27 SD PJ, I found the H27 image, input options, and fan noise much better than the 4805. I don't know what the 4805 cost right now. But somehow I doubt it's as cheap as the H27, and H27 was better for sure.

Now back to the HD70.

Maybe I am the only previous SP 4805 user that has owned and used the 4805 and H27 recently. But I have a hard time believing that if there were others, that they would prefer the 4805 over the H27 regardless of price.

But jump up to the HD70 and I still this it's a no contest against the 4805. And as for against other 720p PJ's... well the HD70 is $999.... so hard to beat that value as of today. Maybe by Christmas...

No question the 4805 fan is loud. I sit 4' away from my ceiling mounted 4805 and I don't hear fan from that distance. In terms of PQ vs. H27, let the picture attached tells the story. This is a picture of the 4805 showing what HD looks like on the 4805. This picture supplied by cavu. Enjoy the eye candy. Click on the image to enlarge.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8032419

I want to hear opinions from people who don't have a dog in the fight.
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post #294 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 12:19 PM
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Well if you want to be accurate about the whole thing, Infocus as of TODAY only has the SP4805 to compete with the HD70. So it boils down to this you have $999 do you want the SP4805 or do you want the HD70. They are direct competitors and if they were both on the shelf at BB I know I'd leave with the HD70, because from what I have read here it seems to be preforming better than some want to give it credit for. The X1 was a presentation machine but it rocked for HT also for the time period it was released, they can try to say the HD70 is a business machine because its not a full blown chassis redo or whatever they are talking about, but the SP4805 has many of the same specs as the X1 but I've never heard it called anything but a legit HT machine. The HD70 looks like an absolute winner so I agree this tread should be about it especially now that a few user reviews are popping up and its looking outstanding. Besides its not like Optima doesn't make good machines and have many loyal customers. The fact is unless there are issues that pop up regarding the HD70, it to me is the single hottest PJ in the <$3,500 market and that includes anything in the Infocus lineup. Sub $3,500 forum is about killer buys that preform very well. I don't care if the IN76 can be shown to produce better contrast and that the optics are a little better(I don't need to here how the OPTICS are WAY better as the IN76 is not a >$3,500 machine its a budget 720P and thats the same type of spin the Infocus lovers complain about what is happening here). Optima HD73 looks like a killer too, but I'm sure there will be posters that try to put a spin on how its ultra cheap with a DC3 thrown in. I'm a sub $999 buyer I've bought and sold machines over the last 4 years and NEVER got burnt on price hell you can't when you spending $899 at BB with your 10% off valued customer coupon then Ebaying it in 6 months for a $150 loss. The HD70 instantly makes the SP4805, IN72, IN74ex look very outdated. The MSRP of $1,999 HD73 is also looking very very strong. Although obvious I just want to point out the fact that the HD70 is shipping Today for $999 and not something that is going to be here in 3 months. My spider senses are sensing a little jealously about the HD70.
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post #295 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 12:25 PM
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This thread will turn to arguing, discussion, and commentary.....and eventually a sticky HD70 FAQ will be built that answers all the important questions

It is the way of such things here

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post #296 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 12:34 PM
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Just for the record, I am not saying the 4805 is better than the HD70. After all the HD70 is 720p. I am thinking of upgrading to the HD70 myself...I will just wait for more reviews and the PJ to be available at Costco. I am saying the 4805 is an excellent PJ!!!! Now back to our regular programming...

I want to hear opinions from people who don't have a dog in the fight.
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post #297 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrhomes View Post

My spider senses are sensing a little jealously about the HD70.

As Daniel Hutnicki said in his >$3500 Forum Cedia review "They have also come up with a under $1000 720p projector that should piss off alot of people."
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post #298 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex solomon View Post

No question the 4805 fan is loud. I sit 4' away from my ceiling mounted 4805 and I don't hear fan from that distance. In terms of PQ vs. H27, let the picture attached tells the story. This is a picture of the 4805 showing what HD looks like on the 4805. This picture supplied by cavu. Enjoy the eye candy. Click on the image to enlarge.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8032419

Personally I think these kinds of screenshots by themselves are useless. Other than for color rendition samples and screen uniformity, it shows nothing in the way of resolution and detail. I am not finished uploading my screenshots. But I don't have a nice screen and my entire room is white which reflects a ton of light from the screen back onto the screen. So my pictures are terrible examples of overall contrast. But my main point to the captures is the fine resolution you get with 720p.

720 or 1080 input, while it may provide an overall better picture than 480 on some 480p projectors. It's still not the native 1280x720 resolution of the HD70. I bet I could get my HD70 to look just like that screenshot as far as brightness and contrast go if I have the right screen and input. But in person, I am positive the HD70 will look so much better. Especially as the viewing distance becomes closer to the screen. The cool thing about HD is that I was standing nearly 3 ft from the 98" screen before I could barely make out the Screendoor effect. And I mean ever so slightly. And it is an ultra fine mesh at that. For me, in person, this equated to a more film like appearance over the H27 and 4805.

854x480 = 409,920 total pixels when using no keystone and full image.
1280x720 = 921,600 total pixels when using no keystone and full image.

511,680 pixel difference. That means there is more than twice as much resolution and there for the screendoor grid is half the size and finer dot pitch.

Yes, I have seen and owned the 4805 and while the image can be quite impressive with the right screen and right inputs. I still found the H27 to be better under the same conditions. And the HD70 blowns them both away. I still don't have mine setup and everything else. And unless I change the white walls, I will never get the punchy black contrast. But I will work on that.

I really don't understand why there is still so much 4805 talk going on here. Doesn't the 4805 have it's own section? I think 4805 talk is helpful if they are people who have compared the 4805 to the H27 in the same setup and same sources... and then also seen just about any 720p DLP projector in the same setup as well.

But seems there are a lot of 4805 comments from people who haven't had the H27 and HD70 (or HD72) in the same setup and same sources. Not sure how that is helpful.

My screenshots again, are to illustrate resolution and the texture caused by regular wall screens. Especially with high def content.
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post #299 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by xenon2000 View Post

Personally I think these kinds of screenshots by themselves are useless.
My screenshots again, are to illustrate resolution and the texture caused by regular wall screens. Especially with high def content.

Regardless, looking forward to your screenshots.

I want to hear opinions from people who don't have a dog in the fight.
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post #300 of 2476 Old 09-21-2006, 01:04 PM
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Wonder why these don't show up in the thread. Just links.

This image is an upclose example. I was about 3 feet from the 98" screen (white painted wall, texture visible) and had my camera 3x zoomed in. Even then this 100% resolution cropped photo shows you just how fine the resolution is. I wish I still had my 854x480 projector to show you just how much of a difference that is.
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