Optoma HD70. The new budget king. - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 08:43 AM
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Yes.... people over analyze things on these forums. I'm sure they will say that it's about knowing all you can about what you buy... I just dont think they realize how much unnecessary fear they promote instead.

There should be a disclaimer at the bottom of certain threads that reads to the effect...

"Although this thread may reach well into the hundreds of pages, most of anything which is debated will not be noticeable by the modest everyday user"
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post #452 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samfield View Post

There is obviously some degree of merit to the 8-bit versus 10-bit argument. However, as far as this thread is concerned there are only a few members who actually have the HD 70 in-hand. I am much more interested in significantly more anecdotal reviews and responses...if the HD 70 is an appreciable step-up in presentation quality from the 480P projectors then I'm there.

If on the otherhand the 8/10 bit matter manifests itself in artifacts and other picture anomalies then the relative value of the $999 price is debatable.

I think people are missing the point. I don't think 8 bit is junk and 10 bit is the holy grail, however I would like to understand what are the pq differences as implemented in the HD70 vs. the HD72 and HD73. I am a current 4805 owner and I'm considering one of these projectors as an upgrade. I like the fact the HD73 has 2 digital inputs and a small amount of vertical image shift, but these don't justify the price difference. So the question is does the 8 bit vs. 10 bit justify a higher price and what is it worth to me?

The other item that I would be willing to pay more for is good deinterlacing and scaling. I've read that DCDI does BOB for 1080i deinterlacing, so potentially the HD70 could be better with 1080i sources. Can any owners comment on this?
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post #453 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tradewinds View Post

No one is saying it cannot look better (another relative term). If you think it looks better then that is all that matters. AFAIK, interpolation algorithms implemented in these so called upconverting players is not precise enough to make the gain worth it. To each his own.

When displaying SD DVD on a fixed panel device, there will be scaling. The upscaling players are desirable when they can upscale better than the display device. The scaling is unavoidable. One needs to let the scaling occur in the device that can do it best.

Thus, we all tend to analyze every little detail of our "toys" to determine the strengths and weaknesses. This allows us to utilize our equipment to its fullest potential. I feed my SP4805 DVDs with DVI/M1 via HTPC pixel mapped to 848x480@72hz for that very reason.

When I upgrade to my next PJ which might well be the HD70, I'll want to know every last detail about its behavior so that I can appropriately exploit that as well.
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post #454 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 10:15 AM
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Rollercoaster,

You've been watching video on your 4805 which has 8 bit processing. Why do you assume the the HD70 will do a worse job with it's 8bit processing? It's funny that a lot of us are currently using projectors with 8bit processing and there is all the hubbub about how bad it might look on the HD70. It may not be as big and improvement as it could be, but for most of us it is still a huge step forward. It's like trading your older sports car in on either a new Nissan 350Z (HD70) or an Infinity G35 Coupe (HD73). Both are great, and much better than what you had before. But you have to decide if the extras of the Infinity are worth the extra dough to you or not.

Here's part of why I say the 4805 has 8bit processing.
Quote:
Video Decoder
4805 Faroudja DCDi, FLI2310, 8 bit
IN72 Pixelworks DNX, PW190, 10 bit

If 4805 has true 10bit color and gamma processing, it seems InFocus didn't think it was worth mentioning as a feature. It isn't in their specifications or in the 4805 press release of 01/07/04. Why is it being made into a big deal now? Personally I think people are threatened by the price/value of this projector, so somehow it HAS to be bad. I'll post side by side pics with my old 720P LCD projector (which I thought looked great) when I receive my HD70 (later this week). I'll be the first to caution people if 8bit is a noticeable problem compared to my LCD.

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post #455 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobraphx View Post

You've been watching video on your 4805 which has 8 bit processing.

The SP4805 uses 10-bit video and color processing! So does the H31 and Z3 and other projectors of that ilk.

To quote Bob Williams, InFocus Screen Play design engineer: "The [SP7200] brightness and contrast controls for the DVI input operate in 8 bits, while the color controls operate in 10 bits. [...] Unlike the previous ScreenPlay products, the 4805 brightness and contrast controls operate in 10-bit space so you do not have to worry about image contouring"

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post #456 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TroyM View Post

When displaying SD DVD on a fixed panel device, there will be scaling. The upscaling players are desirable when they can upscale better than the display device. The scaling is unavoidable. One needs to let the scaling occur in the device that can do it best.

Thus, we all tend to analyze every little detail of our "toys" to determine the strengths and weaknesses. This allows us to utilize our equipment to its fullest potential. I feed my SP4805 DVDs with DVI/M1 via HTPC pixel mapped to 848x480@72hz for that very reason.

When I upgrade to my next PJ which might well be the HD70, I'll want to know every last detail about its behavior so that I can appropriately exploit that as well.

The point being that there is nothing special about the branding the manufacturer's marketing people do by labeling a DVD player "upconverting" or "upscaling" or upwhatever.

Ever heard of the placebo effect? That is all it is. Nothing more, nothing special. Just good marketing research on human venerability. That's why some smart ones use these and other forums to get the facts and not succumb to the effect.

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post #457 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tradewinds View Post

The point being that there is nothing special about the branding the manufacturer's marketing people do by labeling a DVD player "upconverting" or "upscaling" or upwhatever.

Ever heard of the placebo effect? That is all it is. Nothing more, nothing special. Just good marketing research on human venerability. That's why some smart ones use these and other forums to get the facts and not succumb to the effect.

I'm really not understanding your point. Surely, you don't deny that upscaling occurs when using fixed pixel display panels such as our digital PJs. Surely, you also don't contend that all PJs scale better than all upscaling DVD players.

When the upscaling DVD player can scale better than you fixed pixel PJ, you want to use the upscaling DVD player because the picture WILL be better. This is not to say that DVD can be made better by upscaling it. I'm only saying that upscaling WILL occur. We have to be knowledgeable enough to know which device will do it best.
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post #458 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 11:04 AM
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Troy, I think you're probably just wasting your words. He's either a few bricks shy or just looking for a useless debate.

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post #459 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 11:05 AM
 
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Cavu: Is the 8 bit operation in the 4805 mentioned by Cobraphx:
Quote:
Video Decoder
4805 Faroudja DCDi, FLI2310, 8 bit
IN72 Pixelworks DNX, PW190, 10 bit

not applicable to progressive inputs? (because Pixelworks does the scaling and Faroudja does the interlacing)
Or can you add light to the signal chain.

Thanks!

BTW: I think most readers here at AVS know why these discussions about minutiae occur. If they don't they soon will. I enjoy them.
And I've said it before but I'm sure the HD70 will make my X1 pale in every category.
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post #460 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrano View Post

Cavu: Is the 8 bit operation in the 4805 mentioned by Cobraphx: not applicable to progressive inputs? (because Pixelworks does the scaling and Faroudja does the interlacing)

The SP4805 uses the 8-bit Faroudja chip for deinterlacing the analog input only. The IN7x series uses the 10-bit Pixelworks chip for the same purpose. Progressive inputs do not require deinterlacing and bypass the that stage. All of the subsequent internal video and color processing is 10-bit on both the SP4805 and the IN7x series.

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post #461 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrano View Post

I'm sure the HD70 will make my X1 pale in every category.

No doubt.

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post #462 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 11:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

The SP4805 uses the 8-bit Faroudja chip for deinterlacing the analog input only. Progressive inputs do not require deinterlacing and bypass the that stage. All of the subsequent internal video and color processing is 10-bit on both the SP4805 and the IN7x series.

That's what I thought. If someone is using the component outputs of their DVD player (In non-progressive mode) would not the Faroudja circuitry apply its processing via 8 bit. Is not the weakest link applicable in this case?
Of course Progressive signals do not require deinterlacing. That'd be double dipping! Only George Costanza does that.

Thanks
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post #463 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 11:40 AM
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I apologize in advance; this is a crosspost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMRA View Post

WHAT is Optoma trying to do? Kill the competition or themselves?

This is an astute question and I am sure one which generated considerable debate within the product management group of the company. It is a ballsy move but I am certain that they feel that they have sufficiently differentiated the HD70 entry level product from their higher end units by limiting its performance.

An analogy would be Honda introducing the "Fit" entry-level vehicle without endangering its loyal Civic and Accord market. The "Fit" is a great little car but has lacks ABS, rear discs, etc. But these are things that buyers willing overlook to get into a Honda. And Honda is building market share while Civics and Accords still sell like crazy.

Exactly the same thing with the 8-bit HD70.

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post #464 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 11:46 AM
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That'd be double dipping! Only George Costanza does that.

A real LOL here.
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post #465 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 11:47 AM
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For some reason I don't know where CMRA actually posted that question (I thought I was subscribed to all the HD70 threads...) but I don't think it's quite as 1-sided as we might think. I read today (I think on the projectorreviews CEDIA coverage) that Benq also has a $999 720p DLP coming to market. It's a natural progression. Sure it's freaking amazing value compared to, say, last month, but it's not going to be only Optoma (although my last 2 Pjs were a Benq and an Optoma, Optoma will get my business again).
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post #466 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrano View Post

would not the Faroudja circuitry apply its processing via 8 bit. Is not the weakest link applicable in this case?

(Nitpickers be aware that I am somewhat simplifying this analysis):

The Faroudja chip takes an interlaced analog signal and produces an industry standard progressive, 8-bit digital signal which it passes to the internal, non-Faroudja 10-bit signal processing circuitry.

The net result is is exactly the same as if you fed the projector a standard 8-bit DVI/HDMI digital signal which is passed directly to the 10-bit signal processing circuitry.

So, no, the Faroudja isn't a "weak link". It's just performing a required function at a stage where all signals are 8-bit in any case.

Now, with the Pixelworks chipset I expect that the deinterlacing and 10-bit signal processing are integrated, reducing the costs (and Faroudja licensing fees) considerably.

The requirement for 10-bit circuitry comes at the point that color or video manipulation of the signal is applied, ie. contrast, brightness, gamma correction, color correction, sharpness, AI, True Color, Bright Color, Happy Color, Silly Color, etc., etc.

If no processing was done, 10-bit circuitry would not be necessary to eliminate banding. No banding artifacts would be produced to start with. The trick will be to discover how to accomplish that on the HD70.

PS. It may be as simple as leaving all controls at default and defeating the "Happy Color" functions, but we'll have to see.

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post #467 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightfly13 View Post

For some reason I don't know where CMRA actually posted that question

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8502801#post8502801

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post #468 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobraphx View Post

I'll post side by side pics with my old 720P LCD projector

Is your TX100 a 10-bit unit? I know that the TX200 promotion stated "Full 10-bit digital image processing ensures smooth and natural uniformity of colour transitions, which is particularly important when showing HDTV quality movies" but I'm not familiar with the TX100. I would suspect that such comparative pix will only show the routine DLP versus LCD differences.

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post #469 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 01:20 PM
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PS. It may be as simple as leaving all controls at default and defeating the "Happy Color" functions, but we'll have to see.

Good post, I think we need more reviews, maybe some color ramp screen shots and hopefully some HD-DVD reviews looking closely for any color banding?
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post #470 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

I apologize in advance; this is a crosspost.

.

Someone merge these threads?, make an "official" ?
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post #471 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rollercoaster View Post

I think people are missing the point. I don't think 8 bit is junk and 10 bit is the holy grail, however I would like to understand what are the pq differences as implemented in the HD70 vs. the HD72 and HD73. I am a current 4805 owner and I'm considering one of these projectors as an upgrade. I like the fact the HD73 has 2 digital inputs and a small amount of vertical image shift, but these don't justify the price difference. So the question is does the 8 bit vs. 10 bit justify a higher price and what is it worth to me?

The other item that I would be willing to pay more for is good deinterlacing and scaling. I've read that DCDI does BOB for 1080i deinterlacing, so potentially the HD70 could be better with 1080i sources. Can any owners comment on this?

Rollercoaster,

I am not an expert on this 8/10 bit controversy, but here are the relevant sections from Projectorcentral's review of the HD70. He suggests that there is a difference, but "in most cases" it is subtle and easy to ignore--but it is there. The problem I have in considering it is once I know there is something to look for, I look for it. The question is, is it noticeable enough to spend an extra $500 for the HD72 or another. The problem is that most of us will not be able to see it before we buy, so we have to go on reviews, what we read here, and a little faith...

From Projectorcentral:

"We did notice a bit of unevenness in solid colors with subtle differentiations in tone. For example, flesh tones on occasion showed a clear differentiation, essentially a line, between two very close shades of the same basic color, instead of a smooth gradient. This is due to the projector's 8-bit color processing. The more expensive home theater projectors on the market today have 10-bit or 12-bit color processing, so they can display more subtle variations in color resulting in smoother transitions from tone to tone. However, in most instances, the effect of the 8-bit processing on the HD70 was subtle and easy to ignore. Aside from this issue, color was well saturated and accurate.

The HD72 shows some slightly better color performance. The tonal gradient issue that we observed on the HD70 was nowhere to be seen on the HD72, primarily due to the HD72's 10-bit color processing versus the 8-bit processing on the HD70. The result is smoother, less noticeable differentiations on the HD72 than on the HD70."
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post #472 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 02:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

The Faroudja chip takes an interlaced analog signal and produces an industry standard progressive, 8-bit digital signal which it passes to the internal, non-Faroudja 10-bit signal processing circuitry.

That's what I thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

So, no, the Faroudja isn't a "weak link". It's just performing a required function at a stage where all signals are 8-bit in any case.

I see. So all signal processing is 8 bit at this point.
The rest of your summary was very interesting. Thanks!


Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

PS. It may be as simple as leaving all controls at default and defeating the "Happy Color" functions, but we'll have to see.

Good thought! In Audio there is a corollary to the last part of your summary where too much "sweetening" can ruin clarity.
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post #473 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 02:17 PM
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Cavu I appreciate your quote from Bob Williams about the 4805.
Quote:
To quote Bob Williams, InFocus Screen Play design engineer: "The [SP7200] brightness and contrast controls for the DVI input operate in 8 bits, while the color controls operate in 10 bits. [...] Unlike the previous ScreenPlay products, the 4805 brightness and contrast controls operate in 10-bit space so you do not have to worry about image contouring"

But the question still stands. Why did Infocus keep the 10bit processing a secret? Every other mfg was making note when they made the switch to 10 bit processing in their projector models. If Infocus didn't think it was a feature worth mentioning, why do we really care what the numbers are? The ONLY mention I can find on 4805 processing in 10 bit colorspace is the Bob Williams quote. InFoscus certainly never mentioned it officially. If it wasn't worth being a selling point when the 4805 was released why is it now? Did they think having 10bit processing would reduce the sales of the 4805? Were they afraid that the 4805 would undermine the sales of their 720P units if it got out that the 4805 had 10bit processing? I'm not saying Bob's wrong, but InFocus didn't care to mention it, nor did any reviewer of the 4805. Seems to be a disconnect on how important it is.

As for my TX100, I'm pretty sure it is 8bit. But I can't remembering sitting her saying wow, look at the banding, wish I had 10 bit processing in this thing. Never had anyone that saw the picture mention anything like that either. Maybe the HD70 will show banding where my TX100 doesn't? It's certailny possible.

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post #474 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

Troy, I think you're probably just wasting your words. He's either a few bricks shy or just looking for a useless debate.

Another useless post to the thread.

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post #475 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobraphx View Post

Why did Infocus keep the 10bit processing a secret?

Perhaps it was just "their little secret"!

Their SP4805 (and likewise the H31) had notably spectacular PQ and sold wildly on that basis alone. Why tell the competition at that point what they did to accomplish it?

But, why don't you address that question directly to Bob Williams!? And ask him his take on the importance of 10-bit versus 8-bit. He's included it in all his projectors for a reason.

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post #476 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TroyM View Post

I'm really not understanding your point. Surely, you don't deny that upscaling occurs when using fixed pixel display panels such as our digital PJs. Surely, you also don't contend that all PJs scale better than all upscaling DVD players.

When the upscaling DVD player can scale better than you fixed pixel PJ, you want to use the upscaling DVD player because the picture WILL be better. This is not to say that DVD can be made better by upscaling it. I'm only saying that upscaling WILL occur. We have to be knowledgeable enough to know which device will do it best.

Troy, I am not contending what is occuring or where it should occur, but rather if the difference is worth the cost. I know that many fixed displays and some PJs don't have good video processing, however since we are on the HD70 thread, what DVD player do you think will be a good one to de-interlace and scale. You must by now know that just becuse it may have the likes of Faroudja or SI does not mean that it is necessarily implemented well in the marketing hype and may be at the same PQ as the PJ video processing itself.

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post #477 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by timjuliani View Post

Rollercoaster,

I am not an expert on this 8/10 bit controversy, but here are the relevant sections from Projectorcentral's review of the HD70. He suggests that there is a difference, but "in most cases" it is subtle and easy to ignore--but it is there. The problem I have in considering it is once I know there is something to look for, I look for it. The question is, is it noticeable enough to spend an extra $500 for the HD72 or another. The problem is that most of us will not be able to see it before we buy, so we have to go on reviews, what we read here, and a little faith...

The projectorcentral review is what added all of the fuel to this 8 bit fire. Tom said he thought their problem was they were using brilliant color. I agree we will probably not get to see this projector in person so we need to more reviews. I hope other reviews will compare the HD70 to the HD72,73.

Now the other question I had, how do these projectors deinterlace 1080i. Have any owners tried a 1080i test pattern?
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post #478 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 04:12 PM
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Another useless post to the thread.


Good one.

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post #479 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 04:42 PM
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I'll come back to this thread when the pissing contest about 8bit vs. 10bit is over.

What is most disturbing is that many, if not most of the people involved in this discussion have never even seen this projector in action.

That is the definition of a stupid waste of time.
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post #480 of 2476 Old 09-24-2006, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by tradewinds View Post

Troy, I am not contending what is occuring or where it should occur, but rather if the difference is worth the cost. I know that many fixed displays and some PJs don't have good video processing, however since we are on the HD70 thread, what DVD player do you think will be a good one to de-interlace and scale. You must by now know that just becuse it may have the likes of Faroudja or SI does not mean that it is necessarily implemented well in the marketing hype and may be at the same PQ as the PJ video processing itself.

Well, your previous posts were to the effect that upscaling DVD players were pointless and only uneducated people bought them. That's where I disagreed with you. There is a place for the upscaling DVD player. But, I also agree with your underlying intent...they don't enhance DVD per se.

Back the HD70, this is exactly why we enthusiasts pick apart a PJ. Not to discredit it but to determine how it works. Learn its strengths and weaknesses. Then, exploit those strengths to our sheer delight. We also learn to work around any weaknesses. That's what makes us enthusiasts.

I think I remember seeing your posts in the Bravo/D1 thread. The same reason you might use a Bravo is the same reason one might choose to upscale a DVD. The Bravo does a couple of things that exploit the specific workings of the SP4805 (pixel mapping, custom refresh rates, etc). This allows a superior DVD experience than just plugging in any ordinary player. Same with the 720p units. By feeding a 720p signal from an upscaling DVD player, the PJ will do no scaling of its own.

Again, I am making no claims about the capabilities of the HD70 as it's too early in its life cycle to know how well it performs just yet. But, great reports like those from Xenon are starting to paint a nice picture.
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