Adjusting the AE900's convergence - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 105 Old 09-06-2006, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Sankar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 843
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Many of us who have the Panasonic AE900 projector are finding that the convergence is less than perfect. While this misconvergence may be within what Panasonic considers as "normal tolerance", we on this forum are perfectionists and tweakers at heart. Which means that we'd be willing to do the adjustment ourselves.
Unfortunately, the adjustment calls for a special cable which costs almost $300! While that is fine for someone in a service center who will be doing this on a regular basis, most of us will only do this once in the lifetime of the unit and would not want to spend that kind of money (probably cheaper to get it professionally done --- but where is the fun in that!).

In the AE900 Tweak thread, the suggestion that we share the cost was brought up and shared by a few. So this thread is to find out who may be interested in joining into the group effort.

If 10 people get together, the cost per head would drop to under $30. The original suggestion was that one person gets the kit, adjusts his/her AE900 while carefully documenting the process. The kit is then used by the others and when everyone is done, the kit goes back to the original person who gets to keep it (or sell it to someone else for a discount) in exchange for the efforts of documenting the process and being a "consultant".

Having more than 10 people could make the whole process painful, so I suggest that if there are more than 10 people interested we just have 2 or more separate groups.

The kit can be found here and here. Not sure if a consumer can buy directly or a dealer is caller for, but the Union Electronics Distributors web page allowed me to add the item to my cart.

If we were to look at the service manual for the AE900 it appears that the kit is nothing but a set of cables. A copy of the AE700 manual (the chassis essentially the same) can be found here. If someone is willing to make the cable and test it on their own projector etc. first, I for one would be willing to pay the money as I would with the "official" cable. At least the money goes to one of us.

If you are interested in participating please post and confirm. In addition, if you are willing to go through the effort documenting the process etc., please add that info.
Sankar is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 105 Old 09-06-2006, 02:19 PM
Senior Member
 
davidcrowe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Amherst, MA
Posts: 446
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I am interested.

Dave
davidcrowe is offline  
post #3 of 105 Old 09-06-2006, 02:50 PM
Member
 
arjun_m28's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 179
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi all,

This issue has been bothering me mainly because I am anal retentive and not necessarily because I have a problem. I took an image of one of the DVE patterns to show it to you guys. If the experts here would be kind enough to tell me weather I have a problem or not, I would be really greatful. I tried to focus my point-and-shoot camera as best as I could and took this shot from about a feet away from my graywolf screen.

Thanks again.

Regards,

arjun_m28 is offline  
post #4 of 105 Old 09-06-2006, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Sankar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 843
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjun_m28 View Post

Hi all,

This issue has been bothering me mainly because I am anal retentive and not necessarily because I have a problem. I took an image of one of the DVE patterns to show it to you guys. If the experts here would be kind enough to tell me weather I have a problem or not, I would be really greatful. I tried to focus my point-and-shoot camera as best as I could and took this shot from about a feet away from my graywolf screen.

Thanks again.

Regards,


Hello arjun_m28,

Unfortunately I could not access this link to respond.

But I think that you would find more replies if you posted in either the official or tweak threads.

Lets also please keep this thread focussed on the matter at hand which is getting those who wish to adjust their convergences themselves together.

We have 2 so far.

Thanks!
Sankar is offline  
post #5 of 105 Old 09-06-2006, 05:16 PM
Senior Member
 
davidcrowe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Amherst, MA
Posts: 446
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I would be willing to do the documentation. Forgot to add that last time.
davidcrowe is offline  
post #6 of 105 Old 09-06-2006, 09:44 PM
Newbie
 
SACSAC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Victoria Canada
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Please count me in. I would be happy to share my results (update documentation etc.) and would very much like hear the results of others after they have finished their convergence tweaking.

If we don't get 10 interested then I would still be interested in joining a smaller group.
SACSAC is offline  
post #7 of 105 Old 09-06-2006, 10:22 PM
Senior Member
 
scenaria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Orlando
Posts: 225
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
as in the other thread.. I definately would be interested
scenaria is offline  
post #8 of 105 Old 09-07-2006, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Sankar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 843
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
4 so far. I suggest that we give it till the end of the weekend.
Sankar is offline  
post #9 of 105 Old 09-07-2006, 09:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tvted's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 3,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Not to create any issues, since it is a worthwhile pursuit, but before anyone pursues this you should be absolutely sure of the level of MC you have. To do this you should be sure that the lens assembly/shift is as centered as possible. The quality of the lens on the 700/900 could use some improvement and does introduce Chromatic Aberration which can be confused with MC. One way to check MC vs. CA is to observe the edge of the frame with black source. If there is discolouration along the edge you can see each panel in relation to each other and the number of pixels out, and this could be used as an additional reference for adjusting. Be aware that adjustments occur not simply on the vertical and horizontal but the X axis as well (rotation) which is seen as non-uniformity of the MC distance across the image plane. If it were me I would start with Rotation in an attempt to make the MC uniform across the plane.

One other caveat is that opening the unit will void the warranty should it be current.

btw, if you are willing to go this far then you might take a look at brightness uniformity which is determined by the dichroic mirrors in the light path.

lurker mode back on
ted
tvted is offline  
post #10 of 105 Old 09-07-2006, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Sankar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 843
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Take a look at some of my misconvergence shots that I posted here. It looks like the red is shifted one pixel up and to the left. This is the same all across the screen and is unaffected by the lens shift.
I was told that Panny considers a 1 pixel offset as "acceptable" and not covered by warranty ... any my unit comes off the warranty this October.
Sankar is offline  
post #11 of 105 Old 09-07-2006, 03:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Kid Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Orlando, Fl
Posts: 3,733
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'm thinking of getting an AE900, do all units display a CA issue?
Kid Red is offline  
post #12 of 105 Old 09-07-2006, 03:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tvted's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 3,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid Red View Post

I'm thinking of getting an AE900, do all units display a CA issue?

I daresay (guardedly) that *all* lenses sold with pjs in this forum have some level of Chromatic Aberrance. This however, is the wrong thread as this relates to the purchase of a Service Kit for panel alignment (MC). (Unless Sankar wishes to discuss it.)

Search the big threads.
Here and
Here
Be sure to include "lens shift" as part of your pattern.

ted
tvted is offline  
post #13 of 105 Old 09-07-2006, 07:21 PM
Newbie
 
mdeco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi guys, as I stated.... I am interested in going in on the group buy. Let me know where to send the money. Thanks Matt
mdeco is offline  
post #14 of 105 Old 09-08-2006, 12:18 PM
Newbie
 
SACSAC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Victoria Canada
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvted View Post

Not to create any issues, since it is a worthwhile pursuit, but before anyone pursues this you should be absolutely sure of the level of MC you have. To do this you should be sure that the lens assembly/shift is as centered as possible. The quality of the lens on the 700/900 could use some improvement and does introduce which can be confused with MC. One way to check MC vs. CA is to observe the edge of the frame with black source. If there is discolouration along the edge you can see each panel in relation to each other and the number of pixels out, and this could be used as an additional reference for adjusting. Be aware that adjustments occur not simply on the vertical and horizontal but the X axis as well (rotation) which is seen as non-uniformity of the MC distance across the image plane. If it were me I would start with Rotation in an attempt to make the MC uniform across the plane.

One other caveat is that opening the unit will void the warranty should it be current.

btw, if you are willing to go this far then you might take a look at brightness uniformity which is determined by the dichroic mirrors in the light path.

lurker mode back on
ted

TVTED are sure you wouldn't like to join the group? ... Your posts sound like you would be a great person to have look at / work on this?

Stan
SACSAC is offline  
post #15 of 105 Old 09-09-2006, 10:38 PM
Member
 
MrFent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I would advise you all to save your money. First of all, the LCD's are glued firmly in place to the optical block, so you cannot simply "adjust" them. I read in a tech manuel that if you want to adjust your convergence, you have to get a kit, which involves physically cutting the LCD panels off the optical block, and attaching each one to some sort of adjustable plate. You would need one of these plates for each LCD that you are adjusting, so you would not be able to split this 10 ways. Plus if you mess up on cutting the LCD panels off, congrats, you just ruined your $1,100 optical block.
MrFent is offline  
post #16 of 105 Old 09-10-2006, 05:00 AM
Newbie
 
smeggy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 10
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFent View Post

I would advise you all to save your money. First of all, the LCD's are glued firmly in place to the optical block, so you cannot simply "adjust" them. I read in a tech manuel that if you want to adjust your convergence, you have to get a kit, which involves physically cutting the LCD panels off the optical block, and attaching each one to some sort of adjustable plate. You would need one of these plates for each LCD that you are adjusting, so you would not be able to split this 10 ways. Plus if you mess up on cutting the LCD panels off, congrats, you just ruined your $1,100 optical block.

I would have thought that significant optical shifts (1 pixel or greater) could be corrected in software by simply offsetting the relevant channel.
smeggy is offline  
post #17 of 105 Old 09-10-2006, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Sankar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 843
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFent View Post

I would advise you all to save your money. First of all, the LCD's are glued firmly in place to the optical block, so you cannot simply "adjust" them. I read in a tech manuel that if you want to adjust your convergence, you have to get a kit, which involves physically cutting the LCD panels off the optical block, and attaching each one to some sort of adjustable plate. You would need one of these plates for each LCD that you are adjusting, so you would not be able to split this 10 ways. Plus if you mess up on cutting the LCD panels off, congrats, you just ruined your $1,100 optical block.

This does not sound good ... Let me take a closer look at the manual again.
Admittedly the manual refers to the convergence adjustments only in the section where the panels are replaced ... where did you read it?

Thx for the tip!
Sankar is offline  
post #18 of 105 Old 09-10-2006, 08:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tvted's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 3,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SACSAC View Post

TVTED are sure you wouldn't like to join the group? ... Your posts sound like you would be a great person to have look at / work on this?

Stan

Thank you for the kind comment, but I've come to live with mine and am looking to a new box, so my capital (both time and cash) is better spent there.

ted
tvted is offline  
post #19 of 105 Old 09-10-2006, 08:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tvted's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 3,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFent View Post

I would advise you all to save your money. First of all, the LCD's are glued firmly in place to the optical block, so you cannot simply "adjust" them. I read in a tech manuel that if you want to adjust your convergence, you have to get a kit, which involves physically cutting the LCD panels off the optical block, and attaching each one to some sort of adjustable plate. You would need one of these plates for each LCD that you are adjusting, so you would not be able to split this 10 ways. Plus if you mess up on cutting the LCD panels off, congrats, you just ruined your $1,100 optical block.


A careful reading of the service manual will show that this information is mistaken. The panel adjust is multi-turn screws which *may* have a dab of glue on them - though I doubt it. If there is, it is likely removable. Be aware these units are serviceable by local centres. For Panasonic to require panel replacement as part of the MC repair process would be an expensive endeavor. The panel itself is certainly not glued into the optical block. Replacing the optical block would be self defeating from a financial viewpoint.

Sankar, for learned expertise on this, I suggest you PM AVS member frank456
who is a pj tech and owns a 700.

ted
tvted is offline  
post #20 of 105 Old 09-10-2006, 09:12 AM
Member
 
MrFent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvted View Post

A careful reading of the service manual will show that this information is mistaken. The panel adjust is multi-turn screws which *may* have a dab of glue on them - though I doubt it. If there is, it is likely removable. Be aware these units are serviceable by local centres. For Panasonic to require panel replacement as part of the MC repair process would be an expensive endeavor. The panel itself is certainly not glued into the optical block. Replacing the optical block would be self defeating from a financial viewpoint.

Sankar, for learned expertise on this, I suggest you PM AVS member frank456
who is a pj tech and owns a 700.

ted

I'm telling you man, all of the LCDs are glued in place. There is no way to simply move and adjust them. I repair these 900's for a living, I have never come across a 900 that had perfect convergence. When I do come across one that has VERY bad convergence, we replace the whole optical block. I agree, adjusting the convergence would be much cheaper, but it cannot be done.
MrFent is offline  
post #21 of 105 Old 09-10-2006, 09:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tvted's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 3,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFent View Post

I'm telling you man, all of the LCDs are glued in place. There is no way to simply move and adjust them. I repair these 900's for a living, I have never come across a 900 that had perfect convergence. When I do come across one that has VERY bad convergence, we replace the whole optical block. I agree, adjusting the convergence would be much cheaper, but it cannot be done.

So, then throw away the service manual, which indicates the manner in which the panel is installed and removed?

People replace their polarizers which requires removal of the LCD block which can be done independently of the optical block and according to the 700 manual is a removal of two screws once the surrounding components are cleared. No mention of adhesive.

Sorry MrFent, you haven't been around these parts long for me to accept what you say gratis - though I see you have stated elsewhere you work for Heartland. You may be correct but I will require an alternate source as the Service manual indicates no such difficulty though the process in itself can be daunting for those who aren't used to sticking sharp objects into high voltage boxes.

Sankar do PM frank456

ted
tvted is offline  
post #22 of 105 Old 09-10-2006, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Sankar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 843
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvted View Post

Sankar do PM frank456

I just did. Will keep you posted.
Sankar is offline  
post #23 of 105 Old 09-10-2006, 02:03 PM
Member
 
MrFent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvted View Post

So, then throw away the service manual, which indicates the manner in which the panel is installed and removed?

People replace their polarizers which requires removal of the LCD block which can be done independently of the optical block and according to the 700 manual is a removal of two screws once the surrounding components are cleared. No mention of adhesive.

Sorry MrFent, you haven't been around these parts long for me to accept what you say gratis - though I see you have stated elsewhere you work for Heartland. You may be correct but I will require an alternate source as the Service manual indicates no such difficulty though the process in itself can be daunting for those who aren't used to sticking sharp objects into high voltage boxes.

Sankar do PM frank456

ted

You are right about the polarizers, they can be removed and replaced no problem. If your unit is out of warranty, by all means, feel free to take it apart and see for yourself. It's not hard to take out the optical block. I do advise you to get that 2nd opinion before you spend $300 on that service kit.

For those of you who are reading this and whose 900's are still in warranty, send them to Heartland.
MrFent is offline  
post #24 of 105 Old 09-10-2006, 02:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tvted's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 3,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFent View Post

If your unit is out of warranty, by all means, feel free to take it apart and see for yourself. It's not hard to take out the optical block. I do advise you to get that 2nd opinion before you spend $300 on that service kit.

Good advice!
Criteria I believe I mentioned in my earlier postings.

ted
tvted is offline  
post #25 of 105 Old 09-10-2006, 04:24 PM
Senior Member
 
scenaria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Orlando
Posts: 225
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Mine is being sent out tomorrow to Heartland. I really hope they can tighten up the convergence.

Its soo bad that whenever you see a white edge (like the collar of a shirt) you can see red blue AND green lines sepparated by atleast a few pixels... and this is from 16 feet away :\\

in anycase its atleast within warranty right now so im keeping my fingers crossed
scenaria is offline  
post #26 of 105 Old 09-11-2006, 12:56 PM
Newbie
 
marek301's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi

I think that this thread is one of the most interesting about Panny AE900.

Convergence adjustment and lighting area adjustment and reflector adjustment are

the basis of the better picture quality.

The more more interesting subject are cheap lamps for $60, which are already

accessible to buying!!!!!!!! :-)

I want to write that after reading service manual, the whole operation seems
easy.
We do have at all to cut nothing, to only clean from the dust and the screwdriver
turn a bit.
And to get the splendid painting. :-)
All is explained in service manual.

I suspect that can without the problem made in addition 3 cables for $50 -100.
marek301 is offline  
post #27 of 105 Old 09-11-2006, 06:34 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Sankar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 843
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I connected with frank456 and this is what he said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by frank456 View Post

Hello: TVTED is correct. The panels themselves have slightly elongated slots which will allow up to .005 inch adjustment. Feeler gauges can be used to align the panels but the procedure is not easy to do without possibly making things worse. I personally have never come across a projector which was out by more than '1' full pixel. From viewing distances further than 2' from the screen this is totally unoticable.

Incidently, I too found out from my invoice that I have another month on the warranty ... so like scenaria, I think that I will try Heartland first. If they don't agree to fix it (because they think that its within "specs"), then I'll delve in ...
Sankar is offline  
post #28 of 105 Old 09-11-2006, 06:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
frank456's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: guelph, canada
Posts: 1,263
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
scenaria: Your unit must be the rotten apple in the basket to see your display description from over 16' away. My previous units with a 1 pixel misconvergence could not be seen further than 3 feet away. I feel for you. But take heart that yours is a 'rare' exception.
frank456 is offline  
post #29 of 105 Old 09-11-2006, 07:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tvted's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 3,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by frank456 View Post

scenaria: Your unit must be the rotten apple in the basket to see your display description from over 16' away. My previous units with a 1 pixel misconvergence could not be seen further than 3 feet away. I feel for you. But take heart that yours is a 'rare' exception.

Frank,
Thanks for confirming my reading of the manual suggesting at least the possibility for doing this. Its nice to be somewhat correct for a change.

My 700 varies from about 2 pixels to 1/2 a pixel across the image plane (panel needs some rotation) so scenaria is not alone. It is only an annoyance for PC use fortunately. As to seeing - well I've the good fortune of seeing scanlines on the Ikegami 21 inch CRTs in our monitor wall from 10 ft. Good thing content is not important in this situation.

Thanks for your input.

ted
tvted is offline  
post #30 of 105 Old 09-12-2006, 10:35 AM
Senior Member
 
scenaria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Orlando
Posts: 225
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
welp...I just got a delivery confirmation from fedex that the 900 has been received by heartland.

<-- crossing fingers that it comes back better than it left.
scenaria is offline  
Reply Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off