LCD vs. DLP? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 104 Old 09-12-2006, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nbagadio
What's the reason for DLP not having lens shift and long zooms on their lower end?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it has to do with the design differences. I think drastic lens shift is easier to implement in a LCD panel design than a DLP reflective chip design.

As for more zoom range, that wouldn't seem to be exclusive to LCD designs, so I don't know why DLP's don't have greater zoom ranges. Although, supposedly the larger the zoom range, the less accurate the optic quality becomes. Higher zoom range lens can be accurate, but they become much more expensive. Why DLP's decide to stay with small zoom ranges and LCD's with larger zoom ranges, I dunno...maybe has to do with Lawguy's theory of LCD's offering more features, event at the cost of optic quality.

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post #92 of 104 Old 09-12-2006, 01:36 PM
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Double Post Deleted.

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post #93 of 104 Old 09-12-2006, 01:36 PM
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Back for one moment to the issue of the merit of investing in expensive PJs that are placed in unideal conditions. See this link:

http://www.ausmedia.com.au/projector...st%20ratio.htm

The author claims that "The size of your projection room. . . . plus the paint colour, carpets and fittings can change the ACTUAL contrast ratio by at least a factor of five."

He also claims that the light in a room that is lit by a candle makes it impossible to tell whether a projector's CR is 500:1 or 5000:1.


I am not an expert on this topic. Perhaps someone can weigh in on this. However, I agree with the ultimate conclusion. A room that is not properly set up can negate the difference between projectors. I have seen this with my own eyes.

Therefore, if you know that your room will not be a batcave like dark room, it may not be worth it to spend the extra dollars solely for higher contrast that you will never see!

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post #94 of 104 Old 09-12-2006, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy
Back for one moment to the issue of the merit of investing in expensive PJs that are placed in unideal conditions. See this link:

http://www.ausmedia.com.au/projector...st%20ratio.htm
Like me, this author is expressing his opinion. It's subjective and difficult to express on in words what level of ambient light he is talking about? How do you explain a level of ambient light in a forum like this?

A candle right in front of your projector screen wouldn't be a good idea, even if you have a LCD projector, it will kill your contrast. Want better contrast? Blow the candle out (DLP or LCD!).

A candle behind the screen probably won't affect the contrast that much, it doesn't on my set up (L-shaped room).

If your claim that ideal conditions = bat cave (all black surfaces, etc) and you will not see the contrast improvement between an AE900 vs. HC3000 unless it's in a bat cave, then I completely disagree with you.

If your set up is a small room that is all bright white walls w/white carpet, then it's possible the contrast advantage of the HC3000 over the AE900 might be moot. I dunno, but that would be a pretty horrid set up for a PJ.

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post #95 of 104 Old 09-12-2006, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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For myself, I have a 17x23 basement room, no windows, dark oak paneling, white drop ceiling, beige carpet, can lights on dimmers. I don't have a pj yet for I am waiting on the reveiws of the the pj's comming out this weekend. I am still unsure as to lcd or dlp, but will try to get a 1080p if I can work a little overtime and get the cash for one. As far as screen goes I am going to wait until pj is in my home and see how bright it really is.
Can I tell ya you guys have taught me a great deal. Thank you!!!!!!

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post #96 of 104 Old 09-12-2006, 03:57 PM
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riney,

If you are looking for 1080p then you are likely
in the LCD camp unless you are well over the
$3.5 MSRP. I might have missed something
but I don't know of any 1080p single chip DLP
expected to be anywhere near the price of
the AE1000. The Sony Pearl (which is SXRD)
is the next up the food chain from the Panny
and the Mits.

Good news is that no matter what you do
you will very likely end up with a very nice picture.

Regards

Brian
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post #97 of 104 Old 09-12-2006, 04:53 PM
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good post fleaman.

but about that candle..............if you have a HiPower you don't want it in fornt nor behind. that screen will reflect the most fleapowered light source - esp if the source is directly behind you!!

- if you got a HiPower - you really do need a Bat Cave (for me - I just wait for the sun to go down - like most bats).

then I watch my movie ;-).
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post #98 of 104 Old 09-12-2006, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleaman
As mentioned before, an LCD with auto-iris can produce a black level equal to DLP's on a totally static dark scene. But, if that scene has any bright parts in it (say a white spaceship in dark space), then the auto-iris starts to open up and you loose that contrast edge to DLP's.
Fleaman
This is entirely false! You should read WSR review of the Sony HS51 where low video level measurements were done showing DI giving 2 to 5 x CR improvements at 5% and 10% video levels, typical of dark scene movies. The reality is that the opening/closing of the DI is done in concert with sophisticated video processing (dynamic gamma), designed to maintain high instantaneous CR.

It is reasonable to say that in bright scenes where ANSI CR dominates the instantaneous CR, DLPs will have an advantage. In dark scenes where on/off CR dominates, the DI LCD will have an advantage.
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post #99 of 104 Old 09-12-2006, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan
It is reasonable to say that in bright scenes where ANSI CR dominates the instantaneous CR, DLPs will have an advantage.
uhm, didn't I just say that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan
In dark scenes where on/off CR dominates, the DI LCD will have an advantage
Advantage as in; better contrast/ than a comparably priced DLP? I think that's up for debate. I certainly didn't see it with the AE900 vs. HC3000 comparison I made.
Also, DI LCD's give up (trade off, sacrifice, etc.) some shadow detail to get that on/off Contrast, DLP's don't.

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post #100 of 104 Old 09-12-2006, 06:35 PM
 
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There is one thing I wanted to mention about black levels and Front Projection. The blacks of the image can be no blacker than the white (or light gray) screen that it is projecting on. That is one reason I prefer to watch in a totally darkened room. I like the way the film is virtually the only thing I see. It is darker than in a Cinema. (I do have a blue light that lights up the floor area from the floor area, but it puts out no ambient light.) All of our equipment resides behind us. Except for a dot of light from the Subwoofer and a dimly lit light switch there are no light sources except for the screen in front of us.

I also find it very beneficial to mask off any area that is not part of the film (the dreaded letterbox area). If Digital PJs were able to do absolute black I would not do any masking.

I have noticed that the blacks in Cinemas are not really black. However, the detail and levels of gradations in the dim areas is better than what I can do with my little X1. But I do prefer to see the film come out of total darkness rather than the downlighted environment of a Movie House. We do have downlighting for eating, getting seated and exiting. The lights can be controlled from a remote or the switch.

I just wanted to note that FP is different than Plasma or LCD or RPTVs; the white screen requires and darker HT, IMO.
I've toyed with the idea of using a PJ with a fresnel/lenticular screen because I always liked the way the image looked on our small RPTV in darkness or even with a little ambient light. It would require more room than I have though and the screen would be pretty expensive :D at the size I would want.
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post #101 of 104 Old 09-12-2006, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleaman
Advantage as in; better contrast/ than a comparably priced DLP? I think that's up for debate. I certainly didn't see it with the AE900 vs. HC3000 comparison I made.
Also, DI LCD's give up (trade off, sacrifice, etc.) some shadow detail to get that on/off Contrast, DLP's don't.

Fleaman
The issue may be that you are generalizing the AE900 to represent all DI LCDs. As good as the panny is, its DI CR puts in the same ballpark as the HC3000, ~2,500:1. The HC3000 is a a lot brighter and may be more "impressive" based solely on light output.

Try the same comparison with a Sony HS51/A, where the calibrated DI CR is > 5,000:1. The dark scene CR/shadow detail will clearly be better than the DLP at ~ 2,500:1.
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post #102 of 104 Old 09-13-2006, 12:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan
The issue may be that you are generalizing the AE900 to represent all DI LCDs. As good as the panny is, its DI CR puts in the same ballpark as the HC3000, ~2,500:1. The HC3000 is a a lot brighter and may be more "impressive" based solely on light output.

Try the same comparison with a Sony HS51/A, where the calibrated DI CR is > 5,000:1. The dark scene CR/shadow detail will clearly be better than the DLP at ~ 2,500:1.
The HS51 is over a $1,000 more than the HC3000 today, but maybe when the HC3000 1st came out, the prices were comparable. At the price the HS51 is at today you can get a nice DC3 chip DLP projector (HC3000 is only a DC2). But overall I will still disagree with your statement that the HS51 would outperform a HC3000 in shadow detail...even though I will admit I've never seen a HS51. But I doubt you've done a side-by-side comparison of these 2 either?

As I mentioned before, auto-irises have their issues, one being that they work their best in dark scenes with little bright areas, once bright things enter the dark scene (bright spaceship, planets, etc.) the auto-iris starts to open up and your contrast goes away with it.

Overall I will disagree that the HS51 can outperform a DC3 DLP, maybe even a DC2 DLP (like the Samsung 710) when it comes to overall contrast/shadow details. Don't take my word for it, Art at projectorreviews.com reviewed the HS51A and seems to mirror my comments>>

Contrast/shadow detail review page:
http://www.projectorreviews.com/Manu...agequality.asp

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post #103 of 104 Old 09-13-2006, 05:31 AM
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The choice between dlps and lcd is a false choice. The real question to be asked is: How much do I have to spend to get image quality that I will be happy with in my theater set-up.

I believe that for most people, the answer to the question is to go with one of the many LCD projectors that offer great PQ at low prices.

However, if you are someone that wants to go the extra mile, spend the roughly $1,000 extra (or thousands extra) and get a projector that can do a bit more under the right conditions. Frankly, if I were inclined to spend the extra money, I would go with something like the Mitsu HC5000, which offers both 1080p and improved contrast levels. Just know that you might need a batcave to actually see the improved contrast levels. Hopefully the improved resolution offered by 1080p actually translates into improved PQ, regardless of your set-up.

As I noted before, most people cannot really comparision shop for projectors and go mainly by reviews and word of mouth. I would guess that most reviews are done under conditions that are ideal (although they really don't say) and might not translate well into the average HT environment with light walls and ceilings and the occassional window or two. The word of mouth by many people on these forums is probably a better guide as people here are pretty picky and hard even on very good projectors.

Whatever choice people make, they should be aware that the PJs available today are much better than the projectors that people were RAVING about just a few years ago.

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post #104 of 104 Old 09-13-2006, 06:12 AM
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This thread has gone on long enough.

It comes down to this, it's a personal choice.

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Closed Thread Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

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