LCD vs. DLP? - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 104 Old 09-06-2006, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi,
I am a newbie to the projector world and have learned a great deal here. I however still have a lot of questions.
First, what is better LCD that typically don't have better blacks or DLP which depends on color wheels, and why?
Second, how exactly does a projector work? ( I.E) LCD's have pannels? and DLP's use color wheels?
Can someone please explain these things in laymans terms so I can understand and make an educated decision on a projector in the future.
Much thanks!!!
Riney

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post #2 of 104 Old 09-06-2006, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riney
Hi,
I am a newbie to the projector world and have learned a great deal here. I however still have a lot of questions.
First, what is better LCD that typically don't have better blacks or DLP which depends on color wheels, and why? ...
Riney
Riney,
You have asked a very loaded question. Both technologies have
their pros and cons. Overall, I think you will find that most people
here will say that DLP's have better picture quailty inluding
black level, contrast and lack of screen door effect (the grid of black
lines around the individual pictures are less visible). Where as
for the same price the LCD's offer more features (possibly
higher resolution, lens shift and overall greater flexibility
with respect to installation). LCD's also lack the so called
Rainbow Effect (RBE) that is associated with the color wheel
of a one chip DLP. There is a small minority that cannot
tolerate watching DLP's due to headaches and nausea that
are often attributed to the RBE. (I have an Epson 500
which is LCD. My wife cannot take DLP's. )

The picture quality on the new generation LCD's is very good.
Many here will state that pj's such as the Panasonic AE 900,
the Sanyo Z4 and the Epson 550 offer tremendous value for
the dollar. Others will tell you that even less expensive DLP's
blow these out of the water. The only real way for you to
find out what is best for you would be to try and see a few of each
in action in a proper enviroment. If you post your location you may find
others on the forum who are willing to demonstarte their pj's.

You should also know that there is every likelyhood that new pj's
released in the next few months will change the playing field
quite a bit.

Regards
Brian

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post #3 of 104 Old 09-06-2006, 06:14 PM
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The choice basically comes down to those compromises you can live with and those you can't.

After 2 years with a very niuce NEC HT1000, I ended up with the Sony HS-50 and then upgraded to the 51A a year later.

Personally, I doubt I will ever go back to a single chip DLP projector unless something drastically changes in the area of color wheel artifacts.

Happy shopping.

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post #4 of 104 Old 09-06-2006, 06:58 PM
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LCD: panel misconvergance, organic panels lead to yellowing and premature failures, vertical banding, weaker blacks and black level detail
DLP: rainbows (for a small minority, never seen one myself), dithering, better blacks and black level detail, weaker placement flexibility in general

Choose your poison...there's always a compromise.

I've had both and I will never go back to LCD...my $0.02

Mike
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post #5 of 104 Old 09-06-2006, 06:59 PM
 
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You should try and see front PJs of both types in operation. For us a DLP works very well. We have no problem with the colorwheel, but I'm sure I would find a 3 panel DLP more desirable (and WAY more expensive - :eek: ). Oiler mentioned how well many new LCDs have been received. I think the playing field is more even now. I need to explore more before I can say one type is better than another. We have been very happy with our Infocus X1 (DLP - 2X colorwheel) and so have our guests.

Explore - and, as mentioned, new models are coming out in the next few weeks so start searching here at AVS and get the glossary down. ;)

Good luck!
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post #6 of 104 Old 09-07-2006, 09:33 AM
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post #7 of 104 Old 09-07-2006, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you all for your input. It was a great help. As far as me seeing any projectors I have seen the Mit 3000 at best buy and quite frankly I thought it looked like crap. I asked the saleman if the light was on low and he said nope, it's on high and thats as good as it gets. :eek: And was on a stewart firehawk. So I will be looking around to to find where I can preview some pj's.
Again thank you all for you input

John :cool:

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post #8 of 104 Old 09-07-2006, 05:58 PM
 
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Seeing a PJ in a room that is not almost totally dark will not let you know how a PJ performs.
If you have too much ambient light (almost any) a front PJ might not be for you.
I found a fairly good viewing room at a Magnolia HiFi store. But it is rare to find . I have heard that the B&M stores prefer to sell display units other than Front PJs as their markup is not as good. I don't know this to be fact though.

Good luck.
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post #9 of 104 Old 09-07-2006, 09:09 PM
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I'd say DLP is your best bet. I've had a few LCD projectors to view & always like the color quality & contrast ratio better. The epson 550/800The MSRP dropped TONS on those two models!!) are one of the best vs. the panny 900 model was well to for LCD.

Good luck on your research & purchase. If you can you should go with someone that has a return policy with their company. It's hard to tell what a projector is going to look like until you get it out to your home.

Cheers,
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post #10 of 104 Old 09-07-2006, 11:07 PM
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riney -- You might want to read this article: http://www.projectorcentral.com/banding_rainbows.htm. And this article (for a different opinion): http://www.projectorreviews.com/advi...slcd/index.asp. This last article also gives you a general description of each PJ type.

- Claus {non-Santa model}
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post #11 of 104 Old 09-08-2006, 08:46 AM
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I have a question. I am curious to see if the RBE manifests itself more or less on those who are color blind or color impaired.

I myself am probably red/green color blind based on ishihara color tests.

I am curious because I want to buy a DLP projector and don't know if I will see the RBE.

Thanks!
Vic
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post #12 of 104 Old 09-08-2006, 10:26 AM
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Riney,
I can tell you from my experience that even if I did prefer a DLP, it wouldn't work for my setup because of their lack of installation flexibility. Make sure you research this very carefully before pulling the trigger because it might turn out that the only place the PJ works in your room is with it sitting in your lap-
Once I did the math-I didn't even look at a DLP-
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post #13 of 104 Old 09-08-2006, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
it might turn out that the only place the PJ works in your room is with it sitting in your lap-
good point, my pj is 2 ft in front of my face / 1 ft below.
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post #14 of 104 Old 09-08-2006, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven
Personally, I doubt I will ever go back to a single chip DLP projector unless something drastically changes in the area of color wheel artifacts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uatatoka
I've had both and I will never go back to LCD...my $0.02
LOL.
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post #15 of 104 Old 09-08-2006, 11:46 AM
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Before I returned it because it was defective my Toshiba HD-1A produced very deep blacks with excellent contrast and rich colors. This convinced me deep blacks with an excellent PJ like my Z3 are more dependent upon the source than upon the projector.
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post #16 of 104 Old 09-08-2006, 12:57 PM
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Another thing to keep in mind is LCD panel degradation. I have a Hitachi PJ-TX100 that has started to show lots of blue blooming and 'memory' or 'ghosting' always in blue. I'm on my second bulb, and probably have less than 6000 hours on it. Maybe it's my fault, I ran it on low fan in 'Normal' setting. Maybe if I had run it on High the entire time, it would have lasted longer, maybe not. Don't get me wrong, I love the picture and flexibility of this projector. Right up to the time the blue started showing up in my starfields in BattleStar Galactica.

For me, it looks like I will be buying a DLP to replace it. I'm sure I can replace the color wheel if the motor wears out. But replacing the optics block is much more (prohibitably so) expensive. For my setup it looks like the Mitsubishi HC3000 / HC3100 will fit right in where I have my Hitachi mounted for the same picture placement.

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post #17 of 104 Old 09-08-2006, 01:22 PM
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Cobraphx,

Before you go DLP, I advice you to watch this movie that explains how DLP works:

http://www.optoma.co.uk/optoma/dlp.aspx

After seeing it I literally became sick to my stomach. DLP is SO complex, SO many moving parts (close to 1 million !! moving parts), SO many things that could go wrong and break, LCD is a solid rock in comparison. I find it amazing that a DLP pj can work for several months without braking, but wear and tear should be HUGE for such an insanely complex design.
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post #18 of 104 Old 09-08-2006, 01:34 PM
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you can always wait for the D6 c2fine or bi:na inorganic panels. The inorganic panels should not degrade, except for maybe the inexpensive polarizers.
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post #19 of 104 Old 09-08-2006, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobraphx
Another thing to keep in mind is LCD panel degradation. I have a Hitachi PJ-TX100 that has started to show lots of blue blooming and 'memory' or 'ghosting' always in blue. I'm on my second bulb, and probably have less than 6000 hours on it. Maybe it's my fault, I ran it on low fan in 'Normal' setting. Maybe if I had run it on High the entire time, it would have lasted longer, maybe not. Don't get me wrong, I love the picture and flexibility of this projector. Right up to the time the blue started showing up in my starfields in BattleStar Galactica.

For me, it looks like I will be buying a DLP to replace it. I'm sure I can replace the color wheel if the motor wears out. But replacing the optics block is much more (prohibitably so) expensive. For my setup it looks like the Mitsubishi HC3000 / HC3100 will fit right in where I have my Hitachi mounted for the same picture placement.
6000 hours is alot, I'm not sure how much you can expect...

If you were to watch 3 hours on it every single day of the year, you're talking about 5 1/2 yrs of 3 hours a day viewing. Even if you round that down to 5000 hours, you're still talking about 4 1/2 yrs. If my LCD Panny lasts that long (I mean the number of hours, not the number of years, because it will take me like 20 yrs to reach 5000 hours), I'd be more than happy!

-SP
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post #20 of 104 Old 09-08-2006, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arango1
I have a question. I am curious to see if the RBE manifests itself more or less on those who are color blind or color impaired.

I myself am probably red/green color blind based on ishihara color tests.

I am curious because I want to buy a DLP projector and don't know if I will see the RBE.

Thanks!
Vic
No. Even though I have not gone through any specific color vision tests, I have found that my ability to resolve color variations are no less acute (better if anything) than most people I have met. So also my ability to discern details from a distance (my near vision has deteriorated with age and I need reading glasses, but that is about it).

I am one of the unfortunate ones that cannot watch single chip DLP (even the 6 speed units). Even though I cannot actually see the rainbows (unless I try very hard), I get severe headaches after a half hour or so of watching. These headaches last a while after I stop watching. I have tried this on separate occassions (spread out over a few months) with the BenQ 8700+, the Infocus 7205 and also with a higher end Runco (don't recall the model). I was told that these headaches would go away after a while (as I "teach" myself to not move my eyes around or something like that). Somehow the prospect of suffering headaches while I was "adjusting" was not too appealing! So I figured that I'd rather tailor the PJ to me than myself to the PJ and also that there was no guarantee that one of my family members would not be affected as well.
As a result, for me the only choice was a 3-chip machine and I went with an LCD (AE900). I was also concerned about the black level and brightness (or lack thereof) with this PJ, but with nothing to compare side by side all the time, it is the last thing on my mind now ... but then there are no headaches either!
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post #21 of 104 Old 09-08-2006, 02:10 PM
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Scary.
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post #22 of 104 Old 09-08-2006, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones_Rush
I find it amazing that a DLP pj can work for several months without braking, but wear and tear should be HUGE for such an insanely complex design.
Unfortunately the reverse is true. Organic LCD panels are far more prone to failure than a DLP panel. A colorwheel issue is most likely the weakest link in the chain for DLP, with three chip DLP or inorganic LCDs benig the best option for reliability. Inorganic LCDs should be coming out soon enough...

My Z2's LCD panels yellowed and the blue polarizer died ($700 for polarizer alone) in less than 2 years. Now that's scary. TV's should last 10 years minimum IMO.

Mike
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post #23 of 104 Old 09-08-2006, 02:35 PM
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Wow, Sankar... I think you convinced me to go LCD... just the fact that even though I may not be prone to the effect, someone in my family or circle of friends could be affected in some way.

ONTH, maybe I am being too careful, after all, from what i've read in alot of posts is that RBE affects a small percentage of viewers - maybe analogous to ambidextrous people... How many friends do you have that are both left AND right handed?


On general basis, I do get headaches and migranes easily... so I don't want to take any chances - unless I find someone in Tampa FL that has a DLP I can watch for a couple of hours.

Thanks
Vic.
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post #24 of 104 Old 09-08-2006, 02:40 PM
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My Z2's LCD panels yellowed and the blue polarizer died ($700 for polarizer alone) in less than 2 years. Now that's scary. TV's should last 10 years minimum IMO.
How many hours have you used it before noticing the yellowing ?.
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post #25 of 104 Old 09-08-2006, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arango1
Wow, Sankar... I think you convinced me to go LCD... just the fact that even though I may not be prone to the effect, someone in my family or circle of friends could be affected in some way.

ONTH, maybe I am being too careful, after all, from what i've read in alot of posts is that RBE affects a small percentage of viewers - maybe analogous to ambidextrous people... How many friends do you have that are both left AND right handed?


On general basis, I do get headaches and migranes easily... so I don't want to take any chances - unless I find someone in Tampa FL that has a DLP I can watch for a couple of hours.

Thanks
Vic.
Vic,

You should take my case with a proverbial grain of salt! I think that I am most certainly in a minority and many people will tell you that they are not in the least bit affected by DLP. However, there are some who are even more affected than I. A friend of mine who has a DLP projector (and is himself not affected) told me that his sister throws up pretty much every time she comes to his house and watches a movie. It was only after he heard my experience did he make a connection with DLP (so we do not know for sure).

I was just not able to justify to myself that the difference between the two technologies in picture quality was worth taking a chance.
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post #26 of 104 Old 09-08-2006, 03:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar
A friend of mine who has a DLP projector (and is himself not affected) told me that his sister throws up pretty much every time she comes to his house and watches a movie.
Now that's committed movie-watching! :eek:

As for RBE. I noticed eyestrain occasionally when we first started watching our X1. After a short time (a week or two) it was gone. That was three years ago; we still enjoy almost a film a day on our trusty (2X colorwheel) X1. I do think the brain learns how to watch.

BTW: Too much RBE talk could relegate this thread to the Rainbows thread, so take care. :)
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post #27 of 104 Old 09-08-2006, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar
his sister throws up pretty much every time she comes to his house and watches a movie. It was only after he heard my experience did he make a connection with DLP (so we do not know for sure).
I wonder if women are more sensetive to DLP effects than men. That has to be the 10th or so post on this forum about wives/girlfriens/female relatives having issues with DLPs. My wife is included in that group.
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post #28 of 104 Old 09-08-2006, 04:08 PM
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Yeah, I'm pretty hard on my projector, no doubt about it. I use it for HD DirecTV, DVD's from my HTPC, Video on the web, and PC Gaming. Most weekends the projector runs 20+ hours or more. I'm aware of how DLP works, and I'm not really concerned with the complex nature of the DMD panel affecting it's lifetime. There are plenty of posts of LCD panels dying on this and other forums. at 4-6000 hours. But I have yet to find a single post of a DLP projector DMD failing (not saying it doesn't happen). I'm more worried about the 18,000 rpm the color wheel is spinning and how long those bearings are gonna last.

As for my 6000 hours, I suspect it's much more grave than that I guessed at 6000 hours. I'm still on my second bulb, so it's probably less than that I'll update this with my actual hours after work.

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post #29 of 104 Old 09-08-2006, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Again Thanks to all for the great information on DLP & LCD. I didn't realize there was such a controversy on these 2 formats. What about LED? Is this technology available?
Also if anybody lives near Springfield Il, would they be will to demo their pj?

Thanks
Riney

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post #30 of 104 Old 09-08-2006, 09:51 PM
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There are no projectors(atleast that I'm aware of...other than a single Mitsubishi DLP based projector) that use LEDs instead of bulbs. Samsung has just come out with RP DLPs that use LEDs...so I imagine we'll see the same in a projector soon enough. Using LEDs instead of a bulb virtually eliminates the RBE..which is a nice plus.


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