HD70 Tweakers Thread. - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 2474 Old 10-07-2006, 09:48 AM
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I think we're seeing the trend: HD70 pushes green a bit.....whats the best way to back that off in RGB?

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post #92 of 2474 Old 10-07-2006, 02:01 PM
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Scored Batman Begins at Target today, but that comes later.

I can notice the gradation of color in the HD70 with video feeds - HD news broadcast WNBC-HD; I can't notice it in film.

Bought another Tosh HD DVD player with a price match at BB, but they wouldn't honor my 12% coupon. Is that right?

Anyway, I loaded firmware 2.0 and am using 720p on the Tosh to match pixels. Batman Begiins looks great, even on my 140" diagonal screen. I got it at Target. They weren't ready to put HD DVDs out this week, but had some. The guy was nice and checked in the back and came out with Batman - Whooppee!

This was in upstate New York, and I'd like to know from and BB customers if I should have gotten both the price match AND my coupons. Anyone?
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post #93 of 2474 Old 10-07-2006, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

WyattERP, I think there may be a Lepricahn living in your PJ. Wayyy tooo much green. Thanks for the screenies though.

Yeah, me too. Not sure the best way to back it off, but I am messing with the gains and bias settings. It's kind of hard to do it without using the calibration disc though. Like I mentioned before, out of the box, the blues and reds are pretty good, but the green isn't, so altering the sliders is just gonna mess the other colors up as well, isn't it?

Maybe Optoma can fix this via firmware?
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post #94 of 2474 Old 10-07-2006, 06:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WyattERP View Post

Yeah, me too. Not sure the best way to back it off, but I am messing with the gains and bias settings. It's kind of hard to do it without using the calibration disc though. Like I mentioned before, out of the box, the blues and reds are pretty good, but the green isn't, so altering the sliders is just gonna mess the other colors up as well, isn't it?

Maybe Optoma can fix this via firmware?

Unless you're spending 10 figures, hardly any projector comes out of the box 100% calibrated. I dont know why everyone expects them fully calibrated. If theres a green push, you calibrate it and remove it. The colors on mine are absolutely top notch. No push of any color and colors pop off the screen.
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post #95 of 2474 Old 10-07-2006, 07:22 PM
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blitz6speed

And what calibration instrument is it that you used to verify color push? Tweaking is about obtaining a reference image - not unmeasured opinion.
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post #96 of 2474 Old 10-07-2006, 07:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik View Post

blitz6speed

And what calibration instrument is it that you used to verify color push? Tweaking is about obtaining a reference image - not unmeasured opinion.

Kras

I dont watch movies to look for defects. I know what colors look good to my eyes and are pleasing to look at. I know when i see too much red, or green or blue, especially in the whites. Good luck with your passion of looking for faults tho LOL.
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post #97 of 2474 Old 10-07-2006, 08:06 PM
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Some people do have a great ability to calibrate by eye. I can do it very well (very near ISF level), but then again I do digital color grading (and I'm very good), color correction and I own two CRT front projectors. Of course this is not a skill I feel very many possess.

I can detect push very easy and I'm very sensitive to green push. I can't stand it. Even a slight green push takes away a certain "warmth" and adds a sickly look to me. I calibrate white balance and black balance and do finishing touches with a greyscale pattern and then a few more minor touchups. I am a very good by eye calibrator.
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post #98 of 2474 Old 10-07-2006, 08:12 PM
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Then why are you posting to the tweaks thread? If you cannot measure the defects you cannot fix them. SMPTE standards for video exist solely so that your video chain does not exist of people saying it looks good to their eye.

Using the RGB decoder pattern in AVIA and adjusting the RGB gain - is not a solution to a green that is too bright. There are no controls for fixing the video decoding - the RGB gain is for fixing the greyscale. You would use it if white is too green - not if green is too hot.

I am a calibrator - people pay me to find fault with their displays so I can fix it - so that they can get the reference image that they know looks good to their eye - rather than the marketed specs that look good to the manufactures eye. If it bothers you that people find fault with your new toy - don't bother reading this thread.

Tweaking is finding fault - and fixing it.
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post #99 of 2474 Old 10-07-2006, 08:20 PM
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If greyscale is flat then adjusting by eye can be done with people trained and exposed daily references. I do not at all disagree with that. It is when greyscale is not flat that even the trained eye will get fooled.

If 100% IRE is off from the rest - your brain will compensate and assume it is correct and assume 0%-90% is what is wrong - even though it is the other way around - very difficult to tell your brain that it is 100% IRE that was wrong - even confronted with sensor evidence staring you in the face.

I suggest anyone who thinks they can adjust greyscale by eye is find a friend with a sensor - and challenge it to a shootout. You will be proven wrong - even the top calibrators have learned this. It is the way the eye works - it is white adaptive by design. I have learned my own lesson by taking myself up on claims that I could adjust greyscale by eye using greyscale patterns - I found I get fooled just like anyone else and always rely on sensors now rather than a quicky touchup by eye.

If you don't get all the greyscale right - then no chance of getting colors correct - and on those your eye is less easily fooled as it is with white. Which is why I use colorbars to tell if greyscale is off by eye - not greyscale patterns.
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post #100 of 2474 Old 10-07-2006, 08:25 PM
 
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Kras

I see no problems with my HD70. I used Avia + tweaking by eye and its absolutely stunning. Colors look perfect to me.
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post #101 of 2474 Old 10-07-2006, 08:26 PM
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OK fine then go tell people that in the HD70 owners thread not the tweakers thread.

Tweakers are here because they find fault - and want help with understanding the settings so they can fix the faults. Trying to drown them out by saying my eye says mine looks fine is not helping anybody.
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post #102 of 2474 Old 10-07-2006, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik View Post

MTyson

If greyscale is flat then adjusting by eye can be done with people trained and exposed daily references. I do not at all disagree with that. It is when greyscale is not flat that even the trained eye will get fooled.

If 100% IRE is off from the rest - your brain will compensate and assume it is correct and assume 0%-90% is what is wrong - even though it is the other way around - very difficult to tell your brain that it is 100% IRE that was wrong - even confronted with sensor evidence staring you in the face.

I suggest anyone who thinks they can adjust greyscale by eye is find a friend with a sensor - and challenge it to a shootout. You will be proven wrong - even the top calibrators have learned this. It is the way the eye works - it is white adaptive by design. I have learned my own lesson by taking myself up on claims that I could adjust greyscale by eye using greyscale patterns - I found I get fooled just like anyone else and always rely on sensors now rather than a quicky touchup by eye.

If you don't get all the greyscale right - then no chance of getting colors correct - and on those your eye is less easily fooled as it is with white. Which is why I use colorbars to tell if greyscale is off by eye - not greyscale patterns.


I agree that you can't just use the greyscale pattern. I use that to start and then finish it off with touchups using skins tones (and/or colors bars) with with material that does not try to get "artistic" with odd color grading. Something with more natural skin tones. I've used Veronica Mars for this a few times. I do touch ups to make sure her skin looks as perfect as possible. You definitely shouldn't just rely on the greyscale pattern.

You're right about the color decoding issue. With some units you simply can't calibrate it to have great accurracy. I had some issues with my X1 and accurracy. It was pretty damn annoying to calibrate. I found my CRT to be a breeze by comparison. lol.
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post #103 of 2474 Old 10-07-2006, 09:29 PM
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Kras

Do you think then that the HD70's green push can be corrected by the end-user or is it something that Optoma is going to have to fix via a firmware update?
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post #104 of 2474 Old 10-07-2006, 09:41 PM
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What exactly is "perfect" skin tone? How can you take an image and adjust the skin tone to make it 100 % correct when there are likely many different skin colours that could be correct for that individual person. Looked at a crowd of people lately? lot's of different skin tones. I would think that the more accurately the grey scale can be calibrated, the more of a fighting chance you would have of getting the "perfect" skin tone.
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post #105 of 2474 Old 10-07-2006, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik View Post

OK fine then go tell people that in the HD70 owners thread not the tweakers thread.

Tweakers are here because they find fault - and want help with understanding the settings so they can fix the faults. Trying to drown them out by saying my eye says mine looks fine is not helping anybody.

maybe he is doing it to say that not all hd70s have a green push.

To encourage others to purchase if they are on the fence about it. Others who are reading this thread solely because it says HD70. I know that is what i am doing.

I read most threads regarding the HD70 wether i am activly participating in the thread topic or not.

No offense but you are coming off as one of the"I do this for a living so I know more than you" kind of guys.
Blitz likes his HD70 and he is letting people know it on a PUBLIC INTERNET forum. Relax.

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post #106 of 2474 Old 10-07-2006, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mowerman View Post

Blitz likes his HD70 and he is letting people know it on a PUBLIC INTERNET forum.

Well, as a number of people have pointed out lately, this is the "AV Science Forum", not the "AV I-like-it-that-way Forum" or the "AV Kermit-Says-It-Is-Easy-Being-Green Forum".

Posters like MTyson and Blitz6speed are misleading newbie readers when they infer that they have successfully calibrated this projector when, it turns out, they simply fiddled with it till "they liked the way it looks".

Quote:
Originally Posted by mowerman View Post

you are coming off as one of the"I do this for a living so I know more than you" kind of guys

And your point is????

I, and many others, are anxiously awaiting Kras's professional review before we drop any coin.

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post #107 of 2474 Old 10-07-2006, 10:08 PM
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cappra

Well the only green people I know are martians! But in general you are correct - face tones are the worst way to check for greyscale push - but it also the easiest way - IF you know what that face is supposed to look like (via a reference). Was watching a BENQ8720 last nite and we were debating if the actor was sunburned because that was the part he was playing - or are we detecting a bit of red push? I told the guy if he wants to know for sure he needs to pay me to bring in my test equipment - I was not about to start adjusting based on a scene in a movie I am not familiar with.

shatten

First you have to admit there is green push. Some of you got that figured out! Some of you have not. If you are watching the Matrix - when you are in the matrix - green push is desired. When you are outside the matrix - there is NO green - everything is blue. Unless you are partying in Zion - then everyone is naked flesh.

Next you have to decide - is the green push being referred to - a cabling issue, a colorspace issue, a color decoder issue, or a greyscale issue.

cabling issue is easy - R2R, G2G, B2B. If not replug and try again. Sometimes it is not so easy when cold solder joints means you have the right plugs but still a bad connection. So try the digital ports which are impossible to screw up instead.


colorspace issue is using the wrong decoder - SD vs. HD will have green push. This is common in an upconverted SD to HD video chain. I don't see a control for that so you can only hope there is not a problem here.

color decoder issue is when you use the green filter on the AVIA RGB decoder pattern - or your sensor on RGBW fields - with the filter they should be the same - with the sensor they are a certain luminance ratio. There is NO fix for this - other than to find a compromise using the color saturation control between the red, green, blue filters. Some of the more spendy manufacturers will put a dozen color decoder adjustments in their service menus for those trained on what the adjustmens do. The RGB gain is NOT a fix for this test pattern like some have been suggesting.

But before you look at a color decoder as being the issue - you first have to see is the greyscale an issue. Because if the greys ain't right - the color will never be right.

The difference here is the green too bright of a green - or is the grey itself too green because too much green is mixed in? Or a combination of both?

Without a reference hard to tell grey is green. I can give you a reference white and if you stare at it long enough then look at the green white - yes you will say it is green. If instead I first give you the green white - then you look at the reference white you will say the reference white is too magenta.

So if it happens that bright Whites are Blue, while Greys are Cyan - I guarantee your eye will be fooled into saying gray is too green. This is why you need the sensor - because if you add Blue and Red to counter act the "green" - when it really needed just needed the Red to counteract the Cyan (or cut Green/Blue if out of Red) - you have made it worse not better!

So instead of gear - and you want to go by eye? Look at your seconday colors and ask - is Cyan too green, is Yellow too green? If so - your whites are likely green. Pull down Green gain until it looks right. This assumes a digital RGB connection that you know the tint is right in the first place.

For those with test equipment - put up greyscale patterns. Bright Whites are controlled by gain, Dark Greys are controlled by bias. They do interact and you have to iterate. Also know your limits - don't add more red if you are clipping it already at 100% and just turning everything above 50% the same shade of red. Likewise with Bias - it helps to have the near black bars up with your test patterns (not all test patterns have this) - if you go to far down on Bias, then you have clipped your brightness control and the bar dissapears.

mowerman

I do this for a living and I do get paid to know more than you. Otherwise nobody would pay me if I knew nothing. People would not be paying me to do what blitz is doing - which is LOVE THEIR MACHINE LOOKS GREAT LIKE IT A LOT LOOKS FINE TO ME. I get referrals because I tell people their machines are broken - and here is how it can be fixed - not because I tell people everything looks great. I don't want referrals that say I lied yet took their money.
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post #108 of 2474 Old 10-07-2006, 11:26 PM
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Hey Kras!

Might you be able to check whether or not the HD70 supports 48/72Hz while you have it?

guitarman claimed he had gotten his D2 to frame lock at 48Hz but then promptly deleted his post to that effect. He never did respond about 72Hz so I assuming at this point it can not support either.

Thanks!

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post #109 of 2474 Old 10-08-2006, 01:54 AM
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Sorry - Accupel VideoGenerator does not do 48Hz - and my HTPC did a windows update and has DMA issues and skips, judders, crackles.

Maybe DaGamePimp has his HTPC working at 48Hz we can try. But that does not necessarily mean the Bravo is exact same sync he has on HTPC!
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post #110 of 2474 Old 10-08-2006, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mowerman View Post

maybe he is doing it to say that not all hd70s have a green push.


i see it as.......

if the majority of the screenies taken exhibit green push & some don't, who's calibrating (more so tweaking) the HD70 to attain a picture to get rid of it? some i've seen don't have green push at all

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post #111 of 2474 Old 10-08-2006, 07:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V.X.Donique View Post

i see it as.......

if the majority of the screenies taken exhibit green push & some don't, who's calibrating (more so tweaking) the HD70 to attain a picture to get rid of it? some i've seen don't have green push at all


To repeat, out of the box calibration is not right. It needs a calibration. Once calibrated looks GREAT. If you're expecting MARANTZ quality at 999, you will be severly disapointed. You are getting a TOP NOTCH projector for the price and amazing picture quality with great blacks to boot. I just passed 72 hours, and blacks are just getting more black as we go. Couldnt be happier if i tried with this thing.
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post #112 of 2474 Old 10-08-2006, 08:01 AM
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gotcha.

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post #113 of 2474 Old 10-08-2006, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik View Post

Sorry - Accupel VideoGenerator does not do 48Hz

PM me with your shipping address. I am going to purchase a Bravo D1 from NewEgg and ship it directly to you.

You deserve one for all the great info you have provided me in the past!

I'll snail mail a new cap to you.

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post #114 of 2474 Old 10-08-2006, 01:39 PM
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sorry but I don't want one. I stick to DVD Players that I can sale and make money on as part of a package deal. That is the life of being a dealer - I have to buy what my customers would buy - not what I would buy. So if the HTPC gets replaced - it gets replaced with a $$$ Marantz DVD or more likely the Toshiba HDVD player.
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post #115 of 2474 Old 10-08-2006, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cappra View Post

What exactly is "perfect" skin tone? How can you take an image and adjust the skin tone to make it 100 % correct when there are likely many different skin colours that could be correct for that individual person. Looked at a crowd of people lately? lot's of different skin tones. I would think that the more accurately the grey scale can be calibrated, the more of a fighting chance you would have of getting the "perfect" skin tone.


Well, using familiar material helps and 100% correct is probably not the right way to describe it (maybe 98-99.5%. ). You're right about there different skin tones and not one being perfect. However, if I am doing touchups after doing white and black balance I can use a Veronica Mars paused scene and match it to the same scene printed on a magazine cover or something like that. Calibrating is a back and forth processs of checking white balance, black balance, then looking at the greyscale, then skin tones on familiar images, looking at color bars, fade to blacks, dark scenes, bright scenes, etc.

I'd put my 4805 picture up on my Silver Torus against anyone elses and I am positive mine would come out on top against 99.9% of everyone who owns one. With the only exception being those using an ISF'd 4805 on a Vutec SilverStar with FFDShow in a room with dark walls. Those would be pretty close to mine in the dark, but would be blown away in any ambient light.

I've used calibration dvds before, saved my settings and my image by eye was nearly identical.


Quote:


Posters like MTyson and Blitz6speed are misleading newbie readers when they infer that they have successfully calibrated this projector when, it turns out, they simply fiddled with it till "they liked the way it looks".

Stop putting words in my mouth Cavu. I did no such thing. I don't even have the projector, yet. I have a 4805 and CRT and was speaking on my experience with them. Having a CRT means I have much more experience with a complicated setup and I have experience as a color corrector and grader. I uses photoshop, after effects, final cut pro, etc extensively for digital color correcting/grading and making 24p video look more like film. I can calibrate very well by eye. I have done comparisons using a non calibrated by eye image and it was nearly identical.

BTW, I am not telling any newbies they can do this accurrately by eye with an HD70. Most of them may not have a good eye for this and probably have never done advanced image color correction/grading. Also, maybe the H70 can't be perfectly accurate. I do not just fiddle around until it looks good with a random image. I adjust using my color correction/grading image calibration knowledge and make it look as accurate as I can. I know what looks good and what is also very close to accurate. Looking "good" to me is when it looks near accurate. If a display is capable of looking accurate I can get very close by eye.

If you would've read all of my post you would've noticed how I mentioned the X1 giving me trouble with my techniques due to it being unable to get completely accurrate. It may be the same with the HD70 for all I know. It may not, but of course you assume it isn't simply because you own the 4805. I never claimed I could get an accurate picture out of ANY projector or the HD70. I simply meant if it's capable of an accurrate picture I can get pretty close by eye. I can't speak for Blitz or how good he does by eye or is his HD70 is accurrate or close to accurate. I only know how capable I am with an image (assuming it can be calibrated much better than an X1, which could not be calibrated with great accuracy).


BTW, Cavu. I hate to break it to you, but your 4805 is NOT 100% accurate like you believe it is; Like how the designers/directors saw it on their CRT monitor. A CRT projector is much closer to what they see on their monitor. It's funny that you sounds like a CRTer yet you own a projector many of them wouldn't use if you gave them one free of charge (not me, but some).
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post #116 of 2474 Old 10-08-2006, 05:11 PM
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kras just left with the HD70 and while I will let him state his calibration findings I will say that it is not too promising . Now for $999 it makes for a nice Gaming or HiDef Sports projector but if you seek something for HT use I would honestly steer clear of this unit .

As long as your expectations are not set very high then you will probably be happy with the performance .

Just my opinion and I mean no offense to those that already own one .


-------- Jason
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post #117 of 2474 Old 10-08-2006, 05:17 PM
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cavu ,

Sorry but we forgot to try 48Hz from my HTPC .

--------- Jason
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post #118 of 2474 Old 10-08-2006, 05:26 PM
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kras just left with the HD70 and while I will let him state his calibration findings I will say that it is not too promising


-------- Jason

Bummer. Oh well, the universal law of economics (you get what you pay for) always seems to hold true.
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post #119 of 2474 Old 10-08-2006, 05:38 PM
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Bummer. Oh well, the universal law of economics (you get what you pay for) always seems to hold true.

Maybe a better way to put it would be that while this unit breaks a price barrier it does not break a price to performance barrier .

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post #120 of 2474 Old 10-08-2006, 05:49 PM
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what kind of lumen and contrast #'s did you guys find?
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Reply Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

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