HD70 Tweakers Thread. - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP > HD70 Tweakers Thread.
mobius's Avatar mobius 10:46 PM 10-09-2006
Originally Posted by krasmuzik View Post


I guaran-damn-tee - my review - will be screenshot free!

Anyone waiting to see pretty pictures best leave now.

Just mind numbing stacks of charts. I did however use the PDF printers version of RGBCMYBW to color code the charts. I cannot guarantee the printer colors are calibrated to REC709.....

Glad to hear it Kras- on with the details!

I really don't mind screenies so much, and I do like Art's layman reviews. Screenies are a nice way of spicing up a review for us picture-book readers. In seriousness though, I would never base a buying decision on their inclusion. They're just too many uncontrolled variables at play to trust screen shots.

I trust measured data laced with personal, and informed observation.

JeffKB's Avatar JeffKB 10:49 PM 10-09-2006
Originally Posted by guitarman View Post

Jeff dude do you have an HD70? Like I said this PJ is best left to what the engineers decided to set it up for.

Well Tom, I guess the mods can close this thread right now then. The HD70 is evidently perfect as is and cannot be improved or tweaked by the user in any way.
guitarman's Avatar guitarman 10:53 PM 10-09-2006
That's about it buddy. Let them enjoy their new HD projector.
mobius's Avatar mobius 10:55 PM 10-09-2006
Originally Posted by JeffKB View Post

If someone wants to enjoy their projector and be blissfully unaware of its verifiable weaknesses (and all projectors have them), then by all means do so. But why is that person even here then? Is it to read comments that validate his choice, like "It's INSANE, "It's AWESOME", "Dude it ROCKS!"? This forum is to learn, to share experiences, and to get the most out of your system. It's not just for having a lovefest to celebrate one's decision.

Like many people, I'd love to keep this thread on topic, see what Kras' review is, and discuss it rationally. Unfortunately that's not likely to happen. Too many people take criticism of their projector personally - as if it calls into question a person's judgement and intelligence. For first time projector owners (of which there are probably many for the HD70), the awe and joy of finally experiencing a large screen in your home seems to make any criticism of that projector an emotional event.

Read, relax, don't take things personally. You might even learn something that could help you get more out of your system.

I almost wonder if the "Sincerely, Stuart Smalley" tag at the end meant his post was TIC.

Anyway, I hope no one takes my opinions as a slam. Even if Kras can't get the HD70 looking perfect, maybe his observations will help people make their HD70 a good BFTB (bang-for-the-buck) projector.

$999 is awful cheap for a 720p DLP PJ!
JeffKB's Avatar JeffKB 11:00 PM 10-09-2006
Originally Posted by guitarman View Post

That's about it buddy. Let them enjoy their new HD projector.

Sorry Tom, it's the sacred job of the forum to instill a little angst and uncertainty in every buying decision everyone has ever made - past, present or future.

If Clint Eastwood was here, he would say "Enjoys got nothin' to do with it", before letting you have it with both barrels.
Devedander's Avatar Devedander 11:01 PM 10-09-2006
I think something everyone learns sooner or later in life is that if you don't want to see the flaws in something, don't go looking for them...

I don't see why people who are happy with their HD70 have to go and butt heads with those who want to get all the details and absolutes sorted out.

If you don't want to hear about specs at D65 then don't look for them... while I am not one to shout "If you don't like it leave" it does beg why you would go on this forum, and even hang around this thread if you don't like what's being said...

It's not like someone is fabricating stuff or missrepresenting anything, it's (hopefully) all truth, which is sometimes ugly.

So for those who haven't found the joy of finding (and fixing) flaws and are happy with your PJ as is, keep it that way! Lord knows I wish I was that way, would save me a lot of money and stress, but sadly I am one of those people who just can't deal with not knowing all the details.

But for those who can, stop insisting that those who take joy in a different perspective of the item than you do stop so you don't have to risk being exposed to it. If it suits some people to tinker with it in unending toil, let them!

Everyone finds their joy in their own way, let them do so.
spyder696969's Avatar spyder696969 11:05 PM 10-09-2006
Originally Posted by PoseidonXXL View Post

And to those who feel some perverse need to prove others wrong: let it go.

Agreed. Those that wish to prove others wrong about the faults of the HD70 need to let it go, since they haven't stepped up and proven anything yet.

What most people are clearly missing is that those that discuss the shortcomings of ANY projector are, in the end, seeking a solution in making the PJ better. Where would we be without properly calibrated numbers? Some companies also are careful to eavesdrop upon forums, and thus, in turn, either; come up with firmware solutions/etc to resolve the issues or make the next model better based upon what people such as the fine members of AVS comment upon.

If a PJ came out and everyone agreed how wonderful it was, would a company ever have any need to improve upon it? Since we get new models every 6-24 months, it's safe to assume that there has never been, not will there ever be, a
"perfect" PJ...or anything else for that matter.

In life, there are sacrifices. Maybe your truck has great towing capacity, but sucks gas. Maybe your gf is insanely hot, but is a bitch. Maybe your job pays well, but requires long hours. Maybe...you get the point. Flaws abound everywhere. That's life. Best you can hope for is contentment in whatever small piece of the world you call your own.

If anything like someone pointing out flaws in something you love makes you love it any less, then it's apparent that; you believe them, you accredit their opinion, and you have doubts of your own. How can anything in this world be beyond reproach to those that seek the truth rather than simple praise?
krasmuzik's Avatar krasmuzik 11:26 PM 10-09-2006

Mitsu HC3000 is a great example of that BTW. All of the reviews accoladed it for astounding calibrated performance while slamming it for out of box presets. The Mitsu HC3100 took that feedback and fixed the presets and tweaked the hardware so that now you get the performance in the presets and the hardware is tweaked so the brightness/contrast is even better when optimized for performance. But if brightness/contrast is more important than video engineering specs to you - best look elsewhere because you are not going to be seeing it here. The Mitsu HC3100 is only released in Europe - which just goes to show what that market values more.

Definition: tweak: vt. 1. To change slightly, usually in reference to a value.

Bottom line - if you don't have a reference - it ain't tweaking.
gprro1's Avatar gprro1 11:51 PM 10-09-2006
So basicaly this thing is best for gaming and hd sports, and not movies if acurate grayscale and color tracking are are the ultimate goal, And you want to leave it at factoryish presets?

Not as good numbers as the x1. Wonder why I was told it put out 800 lumens with 2700:1 contrast at d65?

someone else send one in, i want to see if the unit is off.
Star56's Avatar Star56 12:29 AM 10-10-2006
Originally Posted by guitarman View Post

And if you experts want to retort, I'll really dont want to hear it and will not reply.

Frankly, this is just an idiotic statement. Your word is final??

Do you do your testing in Mom and Dad's basement?

shatten22's Avatar shatten22 12:35 AM 10-10-2006
Originally Posted by spyder696969 View Post

What most people are clearly missing is that those that discuss the shortcomings of ANY projector are, in the end, seeking a solution in making the PJ better.

These are good points but we live in an imperfect world. I'm all for mapping out the HD70 so we can find ways of making it better, but that's not everyone's motive. So many times I've seen discussions turn ugly - people personally attacking others because their opinion on PROJECTORS doesn't match up to their own. Everyone should relax.

Personally, I wasn't going to buy this projector. After all the talk of green-push I was going to go with a Mits 1000u. Who wants to watch green people? But then I entertained that maybe people are blowing this green thing slightly out of proportion. Cut to the Circuit City deal happening: I basically got $300 off of the sticker price, plus a 4 year "anything goes" warranty and I figured, "hell, I just sold my aging H30 for 400 bucks, this is going to be an upgrade no matter what and it won't break the bank, green people be damned."

A little history: I bought my good old H30 for $1200 three years ago. I thought it was the greatest thing in the world, even though I had to send it back twice and it burnt through three bulbs (two within warranty). It was my first projector. I couldn't believe I had an 84" picture. As I continued using it, I found its' flaws and wanted more. More blacks, more detail, brighter, quieter, more pleasing to the eye. Well, this HD70 - after minor Avia disc calibration and some wacky placement - is friggin' insane.

It's not because the picture is perfect or the colors are perfect. The colors can be a little punchy, but after MINOR tweaking, they get under control. (I don't look at people and wonder why their face is an unnatural color. Maybe technically it straddles the fringe of what is accurate and what is not, but as long as your own discerning eye doesn't care, what does it matter?) It's because it's $999. It's a whole lot of picture for that money. 720p, better blacks, more detail, everything I wanted. The physical case is better looking, quieter, and it feels sturdier. I can keep more lights on in my apartment and the picture is still watchable - And by "watchable" I mean my girlfriend looks at it and says "this is cool," not "why is it so faded?" Many enthusiasts here would probably find it unacceptable, I understand that. That's why none of you will ever be invited to my house. :P

From an H30, it is a big upgrade. And as a holdover until the affordable 1080p units arrive, it's great. I know there are better 720p Darkchip2 projectors out there. But how much better? The nearest in price, the Mits 1000, on it's best street quote is still $300 away. I haven't seen the H1000, so I can't say that the extra $300 is worth it or not. All I can say is that the image that I am watching is causing me no regrets whatsoever. It just looks too good.

Come November, I'm going to get myself a little HD-DVD addon for the Xbox360 (half the cost covered by my free $100 gift card from CC, courtesy of my HD70 purchase), fill up my Netflix que with HD-DVD discs and have a good time. In two years time, I'll sell the HD70 for a third of what I paid for it, and be back on these boards again, looking for the best 1080p DLP proj and combo Blueray HD DVD player 2000 bucks can buy. You guys will still be fighting over the minor details, and we'll all be informed (and entertained) because of it.

It's what's great about these boards.

Lonely Surfer's Avatar Lonely Surfer 12:56 AM 10-10-2006
Good post, Geoff, Wait until you run it connected to that HD-DVD player. Man, oh, man. Awesome.
DaGamePimp's Avatar DaGamePimp 01:04 AM 10-10-2006
Geoff ,

Excellent post and I commend you on your honesty even though you own the HD70 , it's too bad that not everyone here is as open minded and willing to accept the bad along with the good .

*** Now can somebody post some dang tweaked numbers for the poor guy that keeps asking for cable over HDMI settings ? ***

Best Wishes ,
--- Jason
Jim McC's Avatar Jim McC 01:29 AM 10-10-2006
Wouldn't every brand cable box have different settings anyway?
cavu's Avatar cavu 01:42 AM 10-10-2006
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

Wouldn't every brand cable box have different settings anyway?

With a digital signal (DVI/HDMI) about the only thing that can change is whether they are 7.5IRE (video levels 16-235) or 0IRE (PC levels 0-255).

All of the Motorola boxes are 7.5IRE
cyberheater's Avatar cyberheater 02:36 AM 10-10-2006
Originally Posted by guitarman View Post

Colorfacts shows red low by 20%. With the addition of brillant color this is a good thing. And why the factory techs set it up this way.
Enjoy it as is

And if you experts want to retort, I'll really dont want to hear it and will not reply.

So maybe a good candidate for a FLD filter after all?
HT-Naimee's Avatar HT-Naimee 03:08 AM 10-10-2006
Hi all,

Sorry to jump in right at the end here, but I have often heard that the HD70, despite being great for the money, is simply not an overall winner.

The color apparently is totally off which then makes the image seem to bright.

Is this still true and can you get ideal D65 out of the pj without special treatment like filters etc.?

I would like to get myself my first PJ after waiting a long time for either 720p DLP or 1080p LCd to come along and I am thinking of buying the HD70 for two years and then maybe going FullHD.

However, I have seen Sayno Z3 and some other LCDs (not the current models Z5/TX300 etc.) and was never satisfied with what they did.

Would the HD70 just be as bad as those and I will just end up with a pj with poor color and a result I could have goten from an LCD a year ago?

By the way, the settings posted here, are they usable on all HD70s? Won't the fluctuation in quality influence these settings too much?


DaGamePimp's Avatar DaGamePimp 03:12 AM 10-10-2006
Originally Posted by Star56 View Post

Frankly, this is just an idiotic statement. Your word is final??

Do you do your testing in Mom and Dad's basement?


Star56 ,

While you may not agree with the way Tom makes his plug and then leaves may I ask that you keep it civil so that the thread can continue .

Thank You ,
-- Jason
ahro's Avatar ahro 04:03 AM 10-10-2006
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Geoff ,

*** Now can somebody post some dang tweaked numbers for the poor guy that keeps asking for cable over HDMI settings ? ***

Best Wishes ,
--- Jason

Yeah, that would be nice to have some actual tweak numbers. I don't care if each STB is different, it would give me a starting point to see what someone else has come up with. How about some numbers instead of insults? This back and forth is getting old
cavu's Avatar cavu 05:03 AM 10-10-2006
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

Please back up your comment and point out one post where I have been critical of the HD70.

Originally Posted by gottahavapj View Post

... dead silence ...

That's what I thought!
Kysersose's Avatar Kysersose 06:48 AM 10-10-2006
Okay guys, play nice.

I'll be watching from here on out.... suspensions will follow anymore harassment.

HT-Naimee's Avatar HT-Naimee 08:04 AM 10-10-2006
Over here in Germany you can have the HD70 tuned for you. Will I be able to get better results or equal results just using your settings or should I have it tweaked by a pro?

Results of the pro:

cyberheater's Avatar cyberheater 08:15 AM 10-10-2006
Originally Posted by HT-Naimee View Post

Over here in Germany you can have the HD70 tuned for you. Will I be able to get better results or equal results just using your settings or should I have it tweaked by a pro?

Results of the pro:

Great. Can you tell me what contrast figures you have achieved when calibrated and please post your settings. Or a link where you got these figures from.

Adi's Avatar Adi 08:24 AM 10-10-2006
WyattERP's post quoted here (could not find the original) demonstrates one area where HD70 excels 4805 by a wide margin, resolution. Take a look at the video game caputres in full size.

OTOH, HD70 colors look like crap in those shots. It could be that the poster got a bad unit.

Question for gurus like cavu and krasmuzik is, if HD70's grey scales and colors could be calibrated properly, why does it need 48Hz or 72Hz frame-locks to better 4805?

Lets consider two sources:

1. DVD:
A properly calibrated HD70 with a decent upscaling DVD-P like Oppo
SP4805 with pixel mapped D1

2. Broadcast HD material at 1080i/720p
A properly calibrated HD70

I am not sure how the first source compares. Here we are essentially discussing upscaling vs eliminating 3:2 pulldown at native resolution.

For the second source, HD70 would be the winner, theoritically atleast.

How do you view these two hypothetical situation? Please expland/explain/educate me.

As a happy 4805/D1 owner, I am open to a 720p budget projector as long as its CR and color accuracy are comparable to that of 4805. Two biggest issues for me with 4805 are, large pixels on 105" screen which are occationally visible from 16.5 feet (when I am wearing the glasses) and loss of detail on HD material.

PS: Guys cool down. We are all here to learn from each other.
WyattERP's Avatar WyattERP 08:54 AM 10-10-2006
I was watching Monday Night Football last night (duh) and noticed that the Bronco's jerseys just didn't really look orange, but rather red, or maybe red-orange, but mostly red...or something like that. I switched on my TV upstairs and found that the orange was so much more vibrant. I am no RGB tweak master, and failed miserably at getting the orange to look anything like it was upstairs.

So how can I tweak this HD70 to have less pronounced greens (read "less fluorescent") and more accurate orange? I know that the colors on this thing are a bit wacky, so I am just asking for advice. I am not asking for spot on D65 calibration, I don't expect any sub $1K PJ to be perfect, but if I can't tweak this thing appropriately to find pleasing colors, I might be putting the 4805 back up. My patience is wearing thin!

HT-Naimee's Avatar HT-Naimee 08:58 AM 10-10-2006
@Cyberheater: I see that you already found the german forum before I could answer you. Should someone else be interested, here is the link http://www.meinheimkino.com/thread.p...7209#post47209

@Adi: Do you mean to suggest that with non-HD-material the Optoma might actually be worse than a 4805?

My main source will be a Naim Audio DVD5 DVDPlayer and will remain the main source for a while. HD is not as widely spread in Germany and I am currently not looking to buy a HD-Player until BluRay really kicks off.
So would you not recommend the HD70 anymore?
HeadRusch's Avatar HeadRusch 09:04 AM 10-10-2006
Its expected that anything Hot and Cheap is going to get more than its share of fiery proponents/opponents. I didn't buy a $1k PJ and expect it to be perfect.

I can't tolerate any GLARING flaws, like a horriffic CR or really bad red/green/blue push that destroys fleshtones and the like.....barring that, I'm willing to live with simple issues for the money I spent. There were issues with the H31, there will likely be issues in the future with other PJ's I buy assuming I buy on the cheaper side of the bell curve.

This whole "Whos PJ is better.." stuff has definately run its course....it is what it is, there are other options for slightly more money that may do you better if you need certain things that this PJ wont deliver.

So when are we going to be gifted with the results of the HD70 Calibration done on RedDog's unit? Instead of Doom and Gloom I'd be more interested in seeing just what it does and does not do.
talon95's Avatar talon95 09:07 AM 10-10-2006
This is interesting too. If the HD70 is really so poorly calibrated, is this also true fo the HD72? From everything I've read, they seem to be very similar. The HD72 has been very popular.

Dave G.
Adi's Avatar Adi 09:12 AM 10-10-2006
[quote=HT-Naimee@Adi: Do you mean to suggest that with non-HD-material the Optoma might actually be worse than a 4805?

No, I am asking questions, not suggesting anything.
HT-Naimee's Avatar HT-Naimee 09:24 AM 10-10-2006
OK, then I will ask:

IS the Optoma purely recommended for HD or is it just as brilliant for DVDs (PAL and NTSC)? Or would you then recommend something else instead?
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