What was Panasonic thinking? (PT-AX100 pricing) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 98 Old 09-30-2006, 10:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Am I the only one that is shocked by the price that the AX100 came out at? Granted it is an improvement over the AE900U but it is selling for a few hundred dollars more. Everyone knows that prices fall and technology improves (Optoma HD70). I really expected this projector to street at $500 less than it does, quite disappointing.

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post #2 of 98 Old 09-30-2006, 11:31 PM
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I'd say give it a tiny bit here, and I'm sure we'll see the AE900u phased out, followed by some mail in rebates on the AX100 to make it a bit more price competitive.

The AX100 has only been out for just a few days (maybe a week?), and you've got the AE900u still sitting out there at a pretty low price, so rather than just give the AX100 away straight from the start, they are letting those who want it early have it at a bit of a premium, all while the remaining AE900U's are getting picked up at a nice price.

I'm sure we'll see some good price breaks on the AX100 in the near future here.
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post #3 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 01:24 AM
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No I am not shocked at all! I think all this shock and awe over the price of this projector is incredible. Those low end DLPs lack many of the features you get with this projector.

If you think the price is too high just don't buy one! Go buy something else, why are you even considering this projector if you think it is so out of line in the pricing.

I can't believe how much people are complaining about this. I am far more shocked that Marantz thinks they can sell a single chip 1080P DLP for over $15K, but I don't see too many people complaining about it, most people will just ignore it. But here people are wining and crying about a price that is $500 more than they think it should be.....If it doesn't sell, then Panasonic will know it is out of line, but many people are buying it; therefore, the price is probably not too bad. Both of the reviewers also gave it very high marks for value, so they don't think it is over priced either.
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post #4 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 04:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docprego
Am I the only one that is shocked by the price that the AX100 came out at? Granted it is an improvement over the AE900U but it is selling for a few hundred dollars more. Everyone knows that prices fall and technology improves (Optoma HD70). I really expected this projector to street at $500 less than it does, quite disappointing.
I think their pricing falls in line with where it should be at this point in time.

By the few reviews it has had so far it is a big improvement over the AE900 (I own one) and it has their totaly new bulb design that makes for the extra lumens.
I fully expected the AE100 to sell for what it is selling for or even a little more as a matter of fact.

Given all the improvements and the fact that the AX100 has just been released this week I think the price seems very fair and expected.

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post #5 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 05:06 AM
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I agree totally.I think its a fair price and market demand/response will dictate how fairly its priced.I want one, wish it was 500 cheaper but not mad with Panasonic,mad with my boss.

This pj sounds like great value and will change the landscape.It seems like yesterday we were expecting to spend 5k on this kind of performance.This sure makes the next year in pj world very exciting.Kudos to Panasonic for adding some legit buzz to our worlds and pass the popcorn please.
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post #6 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 05:57 AM
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I was also a bit surprised ... but rather how low the MSRP was set and how quickly the street price was falling in Switzerland. The AX100 is just around $150-$200 (in CHF, of course) above the AE900 for street prices and it's officially not even out yet, and constantly dropping in price.
I think Panasonic created a great pj for a very fair price. And I'm quite sure I'll get one soon to replace my old HS10 ...
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post #7 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 06:06 AM
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Easy, Im looking to replace an hs10 too.Just bought a new bulb.Looking to upgrade and the Ax seems to fit the bill.Sony has been great to me but feeling time for a change.
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post #8 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 06:38 AM
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The prices of the new Panny will most likely begin to fall in a month or a two. Like others said, it just came out. When the AU900 first came out the AU700 prices were a bit lower, similar pattern (with rebates as well) is likely to occur with the new Panny.
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post #9 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 06:40 AM
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Yes, feeling the same. I think picture quality on the HS10 is still great and not too far from what you get today in the ~2k area, only black levels and contrast are a major step behind. As my bulb is at ~1500 hrs I will buy the AX100 instead of a new bulb.
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post #10 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 07:08 AM
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Comparing the MSRP of the AX100 ($2999) to that of the
Epson 400 ($1599) I would say that I was some what surprised.
Of course the Epson will street near its MSRP while in the
US the Panny will be discounted substantially. However
for Canadians this does not look good. Anyone looking
for a Canadian warranty may be looking at quite a premium
over a similar pj such as the Epson 400.

Brian
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post #11 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 07:41 AM
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I think it is a good start. We all know it will drop by $500-600 over it's life span. Thats what they cost now a days.

Best Regards,
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post #12 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easypeacy42
Yes, feeling the same. I think picture quality on the HS10 is still great and not too far from what you get today in the ~2k area, only black levels and contrast are a major step behind. As my bulb is at ~1500 hrs I will buy the AX100 instead of a new bulb.
I don't know...imho i think that my 18 month old AE700 looks better than my friends older HS10. I'm not sure how the 100 won't be a huge step up over the sony.
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post #13 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 08:58 AM
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I think the more unanamous consumer complaining about the price of ANY existing product is, the better, and the longer that mass-market consumers wait to buy, the faster prices will drop.

So my adivice is to not buy one second sooner than you absolutely have to.
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post #14 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 09:12 AM
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The AX100U was actually less than I was expecting to pay. The extra lumens are really noticable.
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post #15 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broadwayblue
I don't know...imho i think that my 18 month old AE700 looks better than my friends older HS10. I'm not sure how the 100 won't be a huge step up over the sony.
Sure, no doubt about that. Maybe I was a bit unclear with what I meant with the "not too far away". I really expect the AX100 to be significantly better than my current HS10, not only regarding black levels and contrast, otherwise I'd be disappointed. It has much better panels, 10bit color processing, etc., definitely plays in a higher league.

But I also some time ago checked out the AE900 in a store (with a reasonably dark showroom) and realized that it was not an extreme "wow! completely new experience" difference to my HS10. Sure it was noticably better but it also confirmed that the HS10 is still a nice device if you don't need the latest and greatest.
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post #16 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 09:33 AM
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I think it's prolly a pretty fair price but I *wish* it were already priced at ~15 hunsky. And if you compare it to the new DLP's then it does seem over priced. But it doesn't have any real competition yet save the Epson which is reported to be much noisier. Lets hope the sanyo can drive the price down some.
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post #17 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 09:51 AM
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Don't worry, it should drop in price real fast. Here (Europe, Germany) they're already in that $1500 range. Check www.geizhals.at, click german flag. Geizhals is a price comparison site, not a dealer. So type in Panasonic AX100 and click search button.

Neko
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post #18 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 02:09 PM
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Well, since I raved about the Panny in my review, I might as well weigh in on the pricing.

First, if things are normal, Panasonic will almost certainly have spot shortages at dealers, as they ramp up production. This has been traditional in the fall for the 700u, and the 900u. I should note that the 900u's pricing - when launched, was about $300 higher - MAP pricing (and dealer pricing based on that) was $2299 last fall, vs $1999 this time, and you get the free Blockbuster rental thing, which is worth a couple hundred or so, for those that do like to rent movies, even occasionally, like myself (even though I have about 200 DVD's and a dozen HD-DVD's so far.

Then there is the improvement - first - it's the brightest projector out there for those that can't fully darken their room all the time they like to watch. A real boon for sports fans, like myself.

On the movie side, don't for a moment sell short the incredible job they have done with the pixel structure and "smooth screen" technology in front of the panels that reduces pixel visibility and RBE well below DLP! - and probably very close to LCOS.

And as others point out. from a placement standpoint, LCD is far more flexible. I haven't reviewed the HD70 yet, but other reviews paint it as the price point leader, but no one is claiming that it matches the performance, of say the HD72, in brightness, nor picture quality. The HD72 streets for around $400 less, and is still a great projector. But, as per my review, it doesn't have any real advantage at what DLP's normally do best - pixel structure (the HD72 loses badly compared to the AX100), and black levels. The HD70 should be easily outperformed in black levels by the HD72, so, no contest.

I'm in the midst of reviewing the new Mitsubishi HD1000U. It too has black levels that can't match the Panny, and has a price to slug it out with the HD70, and has the same placement issues.

BTW on the Mits HD1000U. It lists for $1495, and effective today, has a free lamp offer - So even without a dealer discount - you have to value the lamp at at least $300 - for a $1195 vs $999 for the Optoma. Traditionally the Mits have been much better at blacks than Optoma (HC3000 vs HD72), although this Mits does not have an iris, so I'll have to wait until I get an HD70 to really see which has the edge.

As someone else pointed out, people can always "wait as long as they can" to pull the trigger, but then, by then, there is usually something better for just a little more.

For those seeking a superior level of performance, I have no doubt in my mind that the AX100U is worth the $500 more that it is currently commanding, over the AE900U. But, there are plenty of AE900U's still out there. Remember the last effective drop in price of the AE900u was to put the bigger spread between the old and new.

Also, remember, from a price competition standpoing, the Panny's biggest competition (in unit sales) has traditionally been from Sanyo. The Z5 is now probably just 30 days (or a few less) away.

From the emails I receive, for example, the number one reason people in the past, were buying the AE900U instead of the HD72 (which I prefer), was placement capabilities, rather than performance issues. -art

That's my 2 cents -art

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post #19 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by presenter
I haven't reviewed the HD70 yet, but other reviews paint it as the price point leader, but no one is claiming that it matches the performance, of say the HD72, in brightness, nor picture quality.
PJCentrals review says that the HD70 scored 396 lumens in low lamp mode vs 385 for the HD72 and in high lamp mode 756 lumens for the HD70 and 500 lumens for the HD72. I believe guitarman got quite a bit higher reading for the HD70 than PJCentral did though. So, it would seem that the HD70 is the brighter unit of the two.
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post #20 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by presenter
Traditionally the Mits have been much better at blacks than Optoma (HC3000 vs HD72), although this Mits does not have an iris, so I'll have to wait until I get an HD70 to really see which has the edge.
Actually, the Mits does have an iris. I'm guessing you meant to say Optoma?


Quote:
For those seeking a superior level of performance, I have no doubt in my mind that the AX100U is worth the $500 more that it is currently commanding, over the AE900U. But, there are plenty of AE900U's still out there.
The problem with that is that the AE900 is now over priced, so IMO the AX100U is not worth $500 more or even $0.01 more than the AE900 until the AE900 drops to a realistic price. Perhaps it would be worth $500 more if the AE900 was selling for what it should be selling for now (about $899), because past that it would cost more than an HC3000U, which is amusing.

Does anyone here really believe that the AX100U should cost $550 more than a superior HC3000U? I mean c'mon.
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post #21 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 02:31 PM
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Can't speak for the HD70, haven't gotten to work with one yet, but my own measurements on the HD72 were 518 lumens, I believe, in low power mode, and about 25% higher in brightest mode.

Optoma rates the HD70 at 1000 lumens vs 1300 lumens for the HD72. I would therefore be surprised, if the HD70 actually proved out to be the brighter of the two, although we'll know as more reviews hit the streets. I still don't have word on when an HD70 is coming my way from Optoma, but hopefully end of October. -art

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post #22 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTyson
Actually, the Mits does have an iris. I'm guessing you meant to say Optoma?
Not according to their product manager, whom I spoke with on Friday, regarding that. Or, it is possible that it does have an iris, but not a dynamic one (frame by frame), which was the heart of the conversation.

He pointed out that, the lack of a dynamic iris was the big difference between the HD1000U and the iris equipped HC3000, thus the modest 2500:1 contrast claim - the standard for DLP DC2 projectors lacking iris or fancy AI. -art

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post #23 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 02:40 PM
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Hey Art, when do you think you'll post the HD1000 review? I'm looking forward to that. I'm also very interested in the HD70. The HD1000 only has a 1 year warranty though. I don't like that.
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post #24 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by presenter
Not according to their product manager, whom I spoke with on Friday, regarding that. Or, it is possible that it does have an iris, but not a dynamic one (frame by frame), which was the heart of the conversation.

He pointed out that, the lack of a dynamic iris was the big difference between the HD1000U and the iris equipped HC3000, thus the modest 2500:1 contrast claim - the standard for DLP DC2 projectors lacking iris or fancy AI. -art
Sorry, I was referring to the HC3000U.
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post #25 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by presenter
The HD72 streets for around $400 less, and is still a great projector.
Art, I agree the HD72 is a great PJ. I own one. Just wanted to point out that the price spread between the AX100 and the HD72 is much more than $400.

The HD72 can be had from forum sponsors (just click on the overhead links) for $1895 - $400 rebate = $1495 with a 2 yr Optoma warranty

The AX100 is priced at the same sponsors for $2000 with only a 1yr warranty, so to even things out add another year at $150 and now you're at $2150.

$2150(AX100) -$1495(HD72)=$655 difference.
Is the AX100 really worth an additional $655 (30% more) in your opinion?

Also why does Panny have such a short warranty ? Don't they believe in their product's reliability or do they know something we don't ?

One of my buddies ordered the latest DC3 Mits HC3100 for a $100 more than the price of the AX100 today. Panny's going to have to readjust pricing on this model sooner than they think.

There's a lot of amazing stuff out there these days at 2k or less and it's only just begun.

Just my 1.2 cents including rebate :)
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post #26 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTyson
Sorry, I was referring to the HC3000U.
People are buying the PT-AX100 so they must think it is worth it...

I think it is worth it too:

Primary reason again is the HC3000U is not even a consideration due to limited mounting flexibility.

Other advantages:

LESS SDE
Brighter
Lens shift

Look folks for those of us that need lens shift or at least much less offset, then we have to go up the line of DLP to something like the Optoma HD7100 which goes for $1000 more. And it is still know where near as bright. So let's just stop making it sound as though we must have lost our minds to even consider spending $2K for the PT-AX100. For all the features and improvements I repeat "YES IT IS WORTH THE MONEY!"
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post #27 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiBz
$2150(AX100) -$1495(HD72)=$655 difference.
Is the AX100 really worth an additional $655 (30% more) in your opinion?
If that's not bad enough already, the much better Mitsubishi HC3000U can be had for nearly $50 less than the HD72 from an authorized online dealer. So, the real question should be is the AX100 worth $701 more than the HC3000U? The answer is hell no, it should cost less or about the same. Also, is it worth $1151 more than the HD70 which one person said was nearly identical to the HD72? :eek:
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post #28 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTyson
Does anyone here really believe that the AX100U should cost $550 more than a superior HC3000U? I mean c'mon.

If the HC3000U was superior, I would think it wouldn't be worth it. But with the lack of zoom, lens shift, and half the lumens, not to mention the dizzying color wheel, I think if you are gainfully employed, you shouldn't worry about the $550 for the better projector.
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post #29 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTyson
Also, is it worth $1151 more than the HD70 which one person said was nearly identical to the HD72? :eek:
I'd have to agree with you there on that point, and is why I ended up going with the HD70. I would have loved to have gotten an AX100, but it was just so hard for me to justify that extra $1000.

With the AX100 I could have gone with a 106" screen, rather than a 92" with the HD70, and it sure would have been easier to place the AX100 over the HD70, but it's not like I absolutly need the AX100 for my setup to work (I'm also not really botherd by RBE).

For those that need the lense shift, and are sensitive to RBE and SDE, I think the AX100 is a pretty good value where it stands though, and I'm sure it's only going to get cheaper as time goes on.
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post #30 of 98 Old 10-01-2006, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dangc
People are buying the PT-AX100 so they must think it is worth it...

I think it is worth it too:

Primary reason again is the HC3000U is not even a consideration due to limited mounting flexibility.

Other advantages:

LESS SDE
Brighter
Lens shift

Look folks for those of us that need lens shift or at least much less offset, then we have to go up the line of DLP to something like the Optoma HD7100 which goes for $1000 more. And it is still know where near as bright. So let's just stop making it sound as though we must have lost our minds to even consider spending $2K for the PT-AX100. For all the features and improvements I repeat "YES IT IS WORTH THE MONEY!"

Well, if too many of you guys are willing to overpay for their products they'll keep selling them to you at ridiculous prices instead of pricing them where they should be priced. :D

I wouldn't go LCD even if a DLP's offset was too much. I'd use keystone (which showed zero difference on my 4805 and will be the same on several good DLPs) before I'd pay much more for an LCD (plus there's a chance I would see vertical banding, which is the devil; Far worse than rainbows, IMHO).

A decently bright DLP like the 4805 (HD70 or HD72) does not need any extra brightness, IMO, which is why many run units like the 4805 in low lamp mode with an ND2 filter. My 4805 is plenty bright at nearly 14' wide on my pale grey wall in low lamp mode. I don't need any extra brightness. The screen will affect ambient light performance more than just having extra lumens will anyway.

Less SDE is definitely nice, but anyone who sees SDE with a 720p DLP has eagle eyes or is sitting really close. In that case they make a thing called an "IMX" lens which one can add to their decently bright DLP and get rid of SDE for about $300 and still pay less than the AX100U (in some cases much less, depending on the DLP).

One HC3000U + IMX lens + screen costs less than one AX100U. Two 720p Optoma HD70's costs less or about the same as one AX100U. One HC3000U and one HD70 costs only $350-$450 more than one AX100U. One HD70 with a 3 year lamp warranty with upto 2 replacement costs about a grand or more less. Add an IMX lens and it still costs about $700 less.

One HC3000U and one anarmorphic lens can be had for less than one AX100U and will allow people to watch 2.35:1 HD/HD-DVDs with the full vertical panel resolution, which is about 285,440 extra vertical pixels with a 1080i/p signal.

One HC3000U and say one Infocus 4805 can be had for LESS than one AX100U. That is one projector with better blacks, shadow detail & contrast + one great DVD rez DLP all for less than the AX100U.

This should put the ridiculous pricing of the AX100U into perspective, but maybe not. :) It's great for those who see rainbows or are unwilling to use keystone for some reason, but they are still being overcharged in this day and age, IMO. Obviously there will be those that the AX100U is better for due to rainbows or other issues, but that doesn't mean Pansaonic is not overcharging. If they don't feel they are being overcharged that is fine. I feel they are and should be paying less. Not because the product isn't great, but because of the price of other great products that cost much more until recently.

For those making a big fuss about brightness here is my 4805 at between 13-14' wide on a paly grey wall in low lamp mode. The first image is with one shaded light on (The picture is a bit decieving though, because I can comfortably read in the room and it doesnt' look like that in the picture due to my cameras poorer dynamic range and low light ability to compared to the human eyes. The image in person is better and brighter and the room is not pitch black like it appears to be). Taken with a camcorder:

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5...anbig11op3.jpg

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/8314/pbbig44hq7.jpg
MTyson is offline  
Closed Thread Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

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