*Official* Optoma HD80 thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 3542 Old 07-01-2007, 02:19 PM
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I come from a film hobbiest background, and at one time had a 35mm projector with a 1000 watt xenon lamphouse and a large collection of films, including dye transfer IB Tech fims, and vintage high silver content black and white prints. Today's prints in the theater leave a lot to be desired with their murky blacks, and jump and weave due to high speed printing. Some of my old prints were awe inspiring. I had a B&W print of "In Cold Blood" and I have never seen a video anything that could match that gray scale. Some of the IB Technicolor prints were just wonderful, with the deepest of blacks, beautiful contrast, and spectacular colors.
I still think the film look is the holy grail for video, but it depends on what "look" you're after. There are a lot of horrible looking film prints out there, especially these days.

Maybe so, but I can guarantee you that this friday, when millions of people accross the world will watch "Die Hard 4" at the cinema, very few will complain about the picture, even though it is going to have less than 2000:1 CR. This movie will look better (CR wise) on DLP projectors, once it hits Blu-Ray/HD-DVD.
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post #92 of 3542 Old 07-01-2007, 11:22 PM
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This is not right place to discuss the personal preference of Cinema vs. DLP projector. HD80 only.

*Prabhat*
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post #93 of 3542 Old 07-02-2007, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by prabhatb View Post

This is not right place to discuss the personal preference of Cinema vs. DLP projector. HD80 only.

Guys, I brought up the comparison to a 9" CRT simply as a benchmark. Every videophile at this forum would agree that a 9" CRT, properly calibrated and utilizing exemplary signal processing components is what all other displays are measured against. That fact is, I gave the HD80 as good a rating as I would dare in comparison. It is only for comparison and was not meant to be the start of a CRT vs. DLP discussion.

That being said, the fact that it has HDMI 1.3 inputs bodes well for it as it should be able to render a much more satisfying image with better color saturation than previous projectors, provided that you have a source offering HDMI 1.3 output, like the Samsung BD-P1200 Blue Ray player.

Something else I saw at the event was that some of the projector companies have started using 'active' instead of passive HDMI cables to display their images. These cables have powered chips built-in and require a power adapter, but the HDMI signal is protected perfectly from one end to the other on very long runs up to 20 meters whereas with passive cables the data can be corrupted, clipped and lost, even at runs as short as six feet, resulting in sparklies, bit errors and artifacts. Optoma may have been using these cables which could help explain why the images in the HD80 demo appeared so sharp.

Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others.
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post #94 of 3542 Old 07-02-2007, 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Jones_Rush View Post

It always amuses me how some people claim that CRT black is the most film-like, yet in reality, the blacks at the cinema are inferior to cheap darkchip3 DLPs like the Mitsu HC3100...

Kind of goes to show how we lost proportions in the quest for recreating the cinema at our homes.

If the HD80 has anything remotely close to 10,000:1 real native CR, then it already surpassed the blacks of the real theaters by a large margin. In my book, wanting more than this, equals greed.


I don't believe I ever heard anyone say CRT black is the most filmlike. I've only heard that CRT looks the most film like, which is true for anyone with eye balls. I've never heard of it being because of the black level though. It's because they're analog display devices that have no pixels which gives them a silky smooth look that is like looking at moving photographs, much like film.

I don't agree wanting more than 10,000:1 on/off contrast equals greed. Sure, that's great and all, but the fact is REALLY OLD display devices, known as CRTs are capable of contrast ratios in the hundreds of thousands to 1 with true black blacks. New devices should be a leap forward not steps backward. Technology should evolve, not devolve and then evolve slowly until they come close, equal or exceed old technology.

BTW, the H80 definitely won't have anything close to 10,000:1 Native contrast. That's for sure.
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post #95 of 3542 Old 07-02-2007, 11:43 AM
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I don't believe I ever heard anyone say CRT black is the most filmlike. I've only heard that CRT looks the most film like, which is true for anyone with eye balls. I've never heard of it being because of the black level though. It's because they're analog display devices that have no pixels which gives them a silky smooth look that is like looking at moving photographs, much like film.

While using 1080p DLP, If you are sitting above 1 screen width, there is no way on earth, that you will be able to tell even a hint of pixels/SDE, without using binoculars.

So, it's neither black levels nor smoothness.

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BTW, the H80 definitely won't have anything close to 10,000:1 Native contrast. That's for sure.

It doesn't have a dynamic iris as far as I know, so it is possible it will have 5000:1 at best mode, which will be amazing.
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post #96 of 3542 Old 07-02-2007, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones_Rush View Post

While using 1080p DLP, If you are sitting above 1 screen width, there is no way on earth, that you will be able to tell even a hint of pixels/SDE, without using binoculars.

So, it's neither black levels nor smoothness.


CRT has a certain aesthetic that is just hard to explain. It has an almost organic look while digital has a more artificial digital look at times. It really depends on the material though. This almost certainly comes from having such a high on/off contrast. That's what gives it its near 3D like depth and that hard to explain "quality" that some can't quite put their finger on. The color quality/depth of a good CRT is just in another league than a 1 chip DLP. I believe this might partially be also because of the extremely high on/off contrast.
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post #97 of 3542 Old 07-02-2007, 12:51 PM
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CRT has a certain aesthetic that is just hard to explain. It has an almost organic look while digital has a more artificial digital look at times. It really depends on the material though. This almost certainly comes from having such a high on/off contrast. That's what gives it its near 3D like depth and that hard to explain "quality" that some can't quite put their finger on. The color quality/depth of a good CRT is just in another league than a 1 chip DLP. I believe this might partially be also because of the extremely high on/off contrast.

Again, we were talking about why some people think that CRT is more filmlike than DLP. As we already agreed, it can't be contrast, because DLP aleady has better contrast than film.

I don't share this view though (that DLP is inferior to film). I sat this weekend to audition the HC3100 DLP, and from 1.5X I saw a better picture, in all categories, than what I see at the best cinema at my area.
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post #98 of 3542 Old 07-02-2007, 01:41 PM
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I hate to demote Optima HD80, but I have to say single panel DLP is inferior to all other techs let alone a pristine film print and/or a high end CRT. If you have not owned a well up CRT (8"LC and 9") it would be unwise to dispute its performance as I said before.
There are hi end CRT's, hi end DLP's and Lcos which are far superior to 1ch dlp units.
Now if we are talking about budget 1080 units, HD80 is indeed in the running and that is what you should concentrate on but please do not think with a few thousand $ you will have got a reference system. That would be a comedy.

It is all about quality...that is the picture

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post #99 of 3542 Old 07-02-2007, 02:19 PM
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Hey, aren't we in the sub-$3000 forum? Like the guy said earlier, let's keep this focused on the HD80, which I have been told by a seller will be available mid-month.
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post #100 of 3542 Old 07-02-2007, 03:06 PM
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Caspian..... don't get your knickers in a knot! :-)

I don't think anyone is disputing that a pair of G-90's can throw a beautiful image...

What the gentleman was using for his "film-like" comparison is the image at the local Bijou... which in no way would stand up to a pair of dual G-90's!!

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post #101 of 3542 Old 07-02-2007, 03:10 PM
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Thanks, Stevo.
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post #102 of 3542 Old 07-02-2007, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones_Rush View Post

Again, we were talking about why some people think that CRT is more filmlike than DLP. As we already agreed, it can't be contrast, because DLP aleady has better contrast than film.

I don't share this view though (that DLP is inferior to film). I sat this weekend to audition the HC3100 DLP, and from 1.5X I saw a better picture, in all categories, than what I see at the best cinema at my area.

Maybe it's because CRT is analog and DLP is a device making an image with 1's and 0's. CRT doesn't have dithering and has minimal artifacting by comparison. Maybe that's why it appears more film like.

The color quality of CRT is also what makes it more film like. You'd think DLP could stand up against film in color quality, but trust me, it can't. If you compared them at the same time a *good* film print at a *good* theater would wipe the floor with any one chip DLP. I believe Alan did a comparison awhile back and said the same thing.

I'm not saying a good high contrast DLP can't be film like at time; It certainly can be very film like, but CRT feels MORE like film, for whatever reason. You get that same organic look that's hard to explain. It might be because CRT is analog and isn't made up of sqaure pixels making an image based 1's and 0's.
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post #103 of 3542 Old 07-02-2007, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiHoStevo View Post

I don't think anyone is disputing that a pair of G-90's can throw a beautiful image...

What the gentleman was using for his "film-like" comparison is the image at the local Bijou... which in no way would stand up to a pair of dual G-90's!!

Yes he is. Go back and read his posts. Did you miss someone called CRT's crap!?
One G90 or two, quality is same. For 12' wide you need two if you stick with low gain screen otherwise one will suffice.
I have a few local theaters here that performs beyond any home based equipment not to mention IMax.

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post #104 of 3542 Old 07-02-2007, 10:50 PM
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What ever, CRT does not belong here. They are bulky, maintenanace headache, expensive and for picture, they are the dimmest, one tube burned the whole projector is doomed. You cannot have 2.35 setup Period.

It is like that elephant ride you would cetainly enjoy, but it is not same as driving a honda civic for practical life.

And this topic has been discussed throughout the forum, so let's move on with HD80 in this thread.

*Prabhat*
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post #105 of 3542 Old 07-03-2007, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by prabhatb View Post

What ever, CRT does not belong here. They are bulky, maintenanace headache, expensive and for picture, they are the dimmest, one tube burned the whole projector is doomed. You cannot have 2.35 setup Period.

It is like that elephant ride you would cetainly enjoy, but it is not same as driving a honda civic for practical life.

And this topic has been discussed throughout the forum, so let's move on with HD80 in this thread.

Okay guys - I agree. Enough already. I liked the H80 enough and it's at a cost that makes it highly attractive to satisfy the wife factor.

However, I do have to say, PrabhatB, that you most certainly can set one up a CRT to do a 2.35:1 aspect ratio. In fact, you can set up a CRT to do many things that a DLP can't, like blanking, anamorphic squeeze, etc..

Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others.
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post #106 of 3542 Old 07-03-2007, 01:14 PM
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What I think is amazing is that DLP even works!

Try and imagine yourself a technical or sales VP at TI when one monday morning one of your engineers comes in with this "great idea!"

He wants to mount a million tiny mirrors on top of a computer chip wired to the chip so he can flip them back and forth, shine a really bright light on them while the tiny mirrors are flipping on and off by control from the chip below... all the while this guy has mounted the color wheel from his swimming pool lighting system in front of the whole mess and is spinning it wildly!!! Then he expects the chip to be able to keep track of which color segment is coming up so it can turn the mirror on at the right time to create a colored dot on the screen....... and from this he is going to create an entire motion picture!!!!

Personally I would have been on the phone calling the boys with the locking white coats half-way through the explanation :-)

What was this guy doing over the weekend!

Personally I am on my third DLP projector and still cannot belive it actually works!

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post #107 of 3542 Old 07-03-2007, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiHoStevo View Post

He wants to mount a million tiny mirrors on top of a computer chip wired to the chip so he can flip them back and forth, shine a really bright light on them while the tiny mirrors are flipping on and off by control from the chip below... all the while this guy has mounted the color wheel from his swimming pool lighting system in front of the whole mess and is spinning it wildly!!!

You forgot the part where the mirror flips in such a way that the number of times it is "on" is directly proportional to the luminence of that pixel - for that color.

It would be interesting to find out how DLP got developed. I won't be surprised if there was something similar (flipping mirrors) used for something else already - though not in those numbers.
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post #108 of 3542 Old 07-04-2007, 10:52 AM
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Seems few 'Rip Van Winkle's appeared in this thread suddenly, catching up few things. LOL.

*Prabhat*
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post #109 of 3542 Old 07-04-2007, 08:06 PM
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Let's keep the thread to the topic. If you want to talk basic technology go elsewhere. That's one reason these threads get so long you can't find the information about the title that started it.
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post #110 of 3542 Old 07-05-2007, 11:11 AM
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I wonder when Guitarman (Tom) would chip in with his insider knowledge about HD80!!

*Prabhat*
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post #111 of 3542 Old 07-05-2007, 11:35 AM
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Chuck.... if anybody had any information on the HD-80 that is what we/they would be talking about........

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post #112 of 3542 Old 07-05-2007, 11:51 AM
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Projectorpeople.com told me they should have them ready to ship next Wednesday (July 11).
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post #113 of 3542 Old 07-05-2007, 12:19 PM
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Next Wednesday, good then I should get the machine before next weekend.

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post #114 of 3542 Old 07-05-2007, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prabhatb View Post

I wonder when Guitarman (Tom) would chip in with his insider knowledge about HD80!!


I found out it uses a new Pixelworks chip to handle 1080 2/3 pulldown and scaling, allot of the budget machines are using the TI 1chip solution, the Pixelworks chip is expensive and much better, it has a six times speed colorwheel, 7 segment RGB(DG)RGB, 16 stepped Iris or Auto Iris, large 9.5 1920X1080 chip, that sized chip and the 300watt bulb should make for a really bright picture.

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post #115 of 3542 Old 07-05-2007, 03:01 PM
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I wonder about the noise level of this projector. It has the same lamp wattage (300) and noise level spec (32dB) as the HD81, which I've read complaints about. Any opinions?
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post #116 of 3542 Old 07-05-2007, 03:51 PM
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Tom, thanks for the info.

Do you know if this HD80 can vertically stretch 2.35 material (1080p input)? HD81 can.(1080p 48hz).

If it is too early to ask this question, would you keep this in mind?

Thanks much

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post #117 of 3542 Old 07-05-2007, 08:25 PM
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Wing handles the 2.35 stretch and 48Hz, so most likely yes it will handle both.

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post #118 of 3542 Old 07-06-2007, 02:55 PM
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Projectorpeople now lists the HD80 in stock. Can't wait to see one of these things! I love my HD72, so when my bulb burns out, it's time to move up.
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post #119 of 3542 Old 07-06-2007, 03:34 PM
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Although it's listed as in stock, it is not. I received an email today after my inquiry. The guy on the phone a couple days ago said "next Wednesday." The email today said they would check with Optoma on an ETA and let me know.
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post #120 of 3542 Old 07-06-2007, 04:20 PM
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You think there might be SOME lens shift to this thing? In my room, I can ONLY mount in at the back wall about 7 ft up.
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