Choosing LCD over DLP for picture quality (no flame war) - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 166 Old 08-08-2007, 04:01 PM
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The main hall lights were off. They have been keeping that off lately.
We turned the room's light off. It was pretty dark.
In store you can do very limited anyway but it was a good (but not enough) look at this pj especially color quality and black level.

It is all about quality...that is the picture

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post #92 of 166 Old 08-09-2007, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaspianM View Post

The main hall lights were off. They have been keeping that off lately.
We turned the room's light off. It was pretty dark.
In store you can do very limited anyway but it was a good (but not enough) look at this pj especially color quality and black level.

That is a somewhat promising report then because I doubt that they even bother to set brightness or contrast. Perhaps black levels can be improved from what you say. Still, I see that there are already firmware issues with the HD80.

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post #93 of 166 Old 08-09-2007, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

That is a somewhat promising report then because I doubt that they even bother to set brightness or contrast. Perhaps black levels can be improved from what you say. Still, I see that there are already firmware issues with the HD80.

Where do you see these firmware issues? There are none in either official thread.

Not being able to download an update is not an issue, especially if there is no update to download.
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post #94 of 166 Old 08-09-2007, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by reconlabtech View Post

Where do you see these firmware issues? There are none in either official thread.

Not being able to download an update is not an issue, especially if there is no update to download.

I think I misundestood what I was reading.

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post #95 of 166 Old 08-09-2007, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

I think I misundestood what I was reading.

I was wondering if there was a thread I was missing!
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post #96 of 166 Old 08-09-2007, 02:29 PM
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I spent roughly 10 hours each with two LCD projectors, two LCoS (one of them SXRD) and one DLP all 1080p. I had two issues with both LCD (Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 1080 and Panasonic PT-AE1000U) projectors. First by the time they were anywhere close to being dialed in they were far too dim for my 110" FireHawk. The second both had bad panel convergence with sections of the image being way out of focus. I couldn't live with either issue so they were a no go. By the way I tested three units of the one and two of the other.

As far as colors go along with the other calibrating abilities I think they can be addressed by all of the models and found very little difference once tweaked. If LCD had the brightness, dynamic range and sharpness of the others they would be good to go in my eyes.
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post #97 of 166 Old 08-09-2007, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

They all had single chip 720p DLP projectors and all three exclaimed my 1080p LCD slayed the video their older projectors put out in virtually every aspect.

This should not be surprising. According to WSR, the Panny 1000 delivers d65 calibrated; ~1,700:1 native ( iris off ) on/off CR, ~3,800:1 DI CR, and 275:1 M-ANSI CR. Just the native CR numbers are competitive with the very best HD2 DLPs.

Compare those CR numbers to WSRs measurement of some very popular DLPs;
Optoma HD79: 2,900:1 on/off CR and 370:1 M-ANSI CR
Optoma HD81: 1,840:1 on/off CR and 455:1 M-ANSI CR
Sharp Z2000: 1,980:1 on/off CR and 350:1 M-ANSI CR
DVision HD720: 2,900:1 on/off CR and 205:1 M-ANSI CR ($16K!)
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post #98 of 166 Old 08-09-2007, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

I spent roughly 10 hours each with two LCD projectors, two LCoS (one of them SXRD) and one DLP all 1080p. I had two issues with both LCD (Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 1080 and Panasonic PT-AE1000U) projectors. First by the time they were anywhere close to being dialed in they were far too dim for my 110" FireHawk. The second both had bad panel convergence with sections of the image being way out of focus. I couldn't live with either issue so they were a no go. By the way I tested three units of the one and two of the other.

As far as colors go along with the other calibrating abilities I think they can be addressed by all of the models and found very little difference once tweaked. If LCD had the brightness, dynamic range and sharpness of the others they would be good to go in my eyes.


Yeah, pretty much consensus if you really are going to run fully calibrated the Panny is gong to be dim. Most reviewers admit and write, from a film viewng enjoyment perspective, go with Color 1, I think it was and enjoy. This is the setting come up with in collaboration with professional major studio film editors.

I find it very pleasing and film like indeed in what ever mode I am using. Plenty bright too.
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post #99 of 166 Old 08-09-2007, 04:40 PM
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Regarding contrast I forget which LCD model it was although it was one I tested. The reviewer stated with the Dynamic Iris on the contrast got up to 4,000:1. The only issue was it took a full thirty seconds to get there. I think they used the value it achieved after eight seconds or so for its achieved performance.

I think it shows that numbers are rather hard to go by even the numbers you can measure at times.
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post #100 of 166 Old 08-09-2007, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

I spent roughly 10 hours each with two LCD projectors, two LCoS (one of them SXRD) and one DLP all 1080p. I had two issues with both LCD (Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 1080 and Panasonic PT-AE1000U) projectors. First by the time they were anywhere close to being dialed in they were far too dim for my 110" FireHawk. The second both had bad panel convergence with sections of the image being way out of focus. I couldn't live with either issue so they were a no go. By the way I tested three units of the one and two of the other.

As far as colors go along with the other calibrating abilities I think they can be addressed by all of the models and found very little difference once tweaked. If LCD had the brightness, dynamic range and sharpness of the others they would be good to go in my eyes.

CharlesR I think you must have gotten defective Epson 1080's . I see none of the issues you had with mine. Focus and convergence on my Epson is excellent all the way across the screen, even with the UH380 in place. As far as brightness, well this screen shot is low lamp TheaterBlack2 and my screen is 46"x109". Its only calibrated by eye, but still I can't see it becoming dim even with a full calibration. I am using the Lumagen ProHDP for scaling so that may make some difference.


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post #101 of 166 Old 08-09-2007, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Regarding contrast I forget which LCD model it was although it was one I tested. The reviewer stated with the Dynamic Iris on the contrast got up to 4,000:1. The only issue was it took a full thirty seconds to get there. I think they used the value it achieved after eight seconds or so for its achieved performance.

What does this mean?
There is an unnamed LCD pj which an unreferenced reviewer claims has a useless DI?
All LCDs have useless DIs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

I think it shows that numbers are rather hard to go by even the numbers you can measure at times.

So if we can't go by objective measurements by respected unbiased reviewers like WSR, we should just rely on anyone posting that they just saw/bought pj x and it has the greatest contrast the world has ever seen?
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post #102 of 166 Old 08-09-2007, 09:20 PM
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stogdog,

Just curious to what other projectors you may have compared it to in the same setup? Of course I could have received three defective units. One had measles with red spots all over the image based on focus length. At that point I stopped trying.

The Epson was the first 1080p projector I tried and I was initially impressed. Only when I spent some time with it and compared it to the others did I decided it wasn't for me. As an example the brightness was much lower than my previous projector but I thought I could live it until I compared it to the others. For brightness I'm also including contrast. With the RS1 and HD80 whites pop off the screen with a predominantly dark image. Like stars at night, movie credits, or even the PS3 menu.

I think all of them can throw a great image some just better than others based on your preferences.
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post #103 of 166 Old 08-09-2007, 09:38 PM
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HoustonHoyaFan,

The example simply meant in most cases the numbers presented by the manufacturers don't honestly compare to each other or actual performance.

Along with the numbers provided by even the experts are based on a set of conditions that may or may not be valid for your particular preferences or installation.

A really bad analogy. I don't think you can add the PPG (Points Per Game) for each member of two basketball teams and determine who will win the game. It's how they interact and at times the home court has an influence on the outcome. Sorry for the rather crude example but hopefully it makes sense.

I'm not saying for a minute the numbers aren't valuable but at some point you have to go by what you see on the court rather the screen.

P.S. Since I can't explain any further I'll close out the topic (for me) by saying I'll take what I see on the screen over any set of numbers and I think you'll agree.
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post #104 of 166 Old 08-10-2007, 04:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

This should not be surprising. According to WSR, the Panny 1000 delivers d65 calibrated; ~1,700:1 native ( iris off ) on/off CR, ~3,800:1 DI CR, and 275:1 M-ANSI CR. Just the native CR numbers are competitive with the very best HD2 DLPs.

Compare those CR numbers to WSRs measurement of some very popular DLPs;
Optoma HD79: 2,900:1 on/off CR and 370:1 M-ANSI CR
Optoma HD81: 1,840:1 on/off CR and 455:1 M-ANSI CR
Sharp Z2000: 1,980:1 on/off CR and 350:1 M-ANSI CR
DVision HD720: 2,900:1 on/off CR and 205:1 M-ANSI CR ($16K!)

While what you are saying is true, it only tells part of the story. The rest of it, unfortunately, does not read very well for the 1080p LCDs.

You are correct that WSR measured native on/off of the AE1000 at ~1700:1. You compare this favorably to some well-regarded dlp projectors. What you neglect to mention is that the measured black level of the Panny with iris off is a very high .24 lumens. With Iris on it drops to .11 lumens. This seems nice until you compare it to something like the Sharp 12k which has a measured black level by WSR of .0035 lumens or the Pearl at .0021 lumens. Also keep in mind that the .11 measurement is with the iris fully closed. In practice, the black level will be much higher in most scenes.

What does this mean? It means that the black level on the Panny will always be noticably higher than on a good dlp or LCOS PJ. This is why, for instance, the Pearl has double the measured native on/off of these 1080p LCDs (LCOS and LCD have similar ANSI measurements). This, in my opinion affects picture quality in a negative way and is why LCDs cannot really compete with good dlps or LCOS.

People deny that LCDs have heightened black levels any longer. Would that it were so. People may be willing to accept them for reasons such as cost or features but I don't see how someone can deny the fact of it. Also, some may say that heightened black levels don't affect picture quality. Well, let's have that debate, because denial is a river in Egypt.

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post #105 of 166 Old 08-10-2007, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

You are correct that WSR measured native on/off of the AE1000 at ~1700:1. You compare this favorably to some well-regarded dlp projectors. What you neglect to mention is that the measured black level of the Panny with iris off is a very high .24 lumens. With Iris on it drops to .11 lumens. This seems nice until you compare it to something like the Sharp 12k which has a measured black level by WSR of .0035 lumens or the Pearl at .0021 lumens. Also keep in mind that the .11 measurement is with the iris fully closed. In practice, the black level will be much higher in most scenes.

You are using two different units of measurement, lumens for the Panny and FtL for the Sharp and Pearl. You are also chosein examples of 12K with 2x the CR and Pearl with 6X the CR of the Panny!

Yes, the Sharp will have 1/2 the black level of the Panny after they have been setup on an appropriate screen size. The Pearl will have a black level 1/3 of the Sharp.

Note if you put the Sharp on a screen ~ 1/2 the area of the Panny, say on a 87x49 and the Panny on 120x66, the black levels would be the same. Black levels by themselves are not very usefull, CR is.

My point is the Panny has similar native CR to the Optoma HD81 and the Sharp 2000. It has the same black levels as those pjs with iris off. In dark scenes with auto iris it has a black level ~3 times lower.
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post #106 of 166 Old 08-10-2007, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

You are using two different units of measurement, lumens for the Panny and FtL for the Sharp and Pearl. You are also chosein examples of 12K with 2x the CR and Pearl with 6X the CR of the Panny!

Yes, the Sharp will have 1/2 the black level of the Panny after they have been setup on an appropriate screen size. The Pearl will have a black level 1/3 of the Sharp.

Note if you put the Sharp on a screen ~ 1/2 the area of the Panny, say on a 87x49 and the Panny on 120x66, the black levels would be the same. Black levels by themselves are not very usefull, CR is.

My point is the Panny has similar native CR to the Optoma HD81 and the Sharp 2000. It has the same black levels as those pjs with iris off. In dark scenes with auto iris it has a black level ~3 times lower.

My unit of measurement foible aside (and it does not affect my analysis) how can you say that black levels are not useful? Black levels tell us quite clearly how BLACK in absolute terms an image can get and this is quite easily understood. The human eye is sensitive to even small amounts of light. If more of that light makes it on to the screen, it will be seen. This happens in practice with LCDs which is why they are notorious for "gray blacks." Also keep in mind that you are considering the Panny at its best with the iris closed. In most scenes that don't have the Iris closed all the way, it will be worse and blacks will suffer even more.

It is also not useful to say, as you did, that the Panny would have the same black level as the Sharp if projected on a screen twice the area. That is just not how people compare and buy projectors.

My point is that although perhaps you can design LCDs to measure well in some areas, things that really make a difference in PQ, like black level, remain a weakness.

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post #107 of 166 Old 08-10-2007, 06:52 AM
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I also understand HoustonHoyaFan's main point: LCD projectors like the Panny 1000 can compare favorably with some dlp projectors. This is true. However, because this is true, I caution everyone to choose their projector very carefully. You just can't say "I bought a dlp so it is good." However, if you buy "good" dlp or LCOS projector, it will surely outperform the best LCD.

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post #108 of 166 Old 08-10-2007, 06:59 AM
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I looked hard at the Panny 1000, but I still have reservations about LCD panels and the smooth screen the Panny has was not something I wanted. Anyway, I am more than happy with what I have which has 0.001 ft-L black level.

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post #109 of 166 Old 08-10-2007, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tradewinds View Post

Anyway, I am more than happy with what I have which has 0.001 ft-L black level.

. . . and I am sure that you can see (actually not see I think) that fact on the screen!

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post #110 of 166 Old 08-10-2007, 07:04 AM
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This is why you really have go past the numbers and try to get at least a couple of projectors into your theater to try out. I really learned this the hard way recently.

I would assume that everybody agrees you should in the end choose the projector that produces the most pleasing images to one's own eyes right?


Actual percieved differences between projectors isn't near as much as one would think for most people.

I certainly found the differences between an HD80 and an AE1000U to be rather subtle myself once I was running the better film based sources on them. Then you come to other factors such as how do they perform on older legacy NTSC sources, maybe even black and white old legacy NTSC sources. On that note, the Panasonic was significantly better than all I tried but the Pearl which it still seemed to edge out.
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post #111 of 166 Old 08-10-2007, 07:08 AM
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One thing to add to this tread: Whatever you buy, you will get used to. What looks odd at first looks normal 10 movies later.

Remember when watching things stretched on your 16:9 TV lookwed weird, and today you have to stop and look and go "Wait...is that..SD stretched....am I in the right aspect ratio?"

Everyone has either Buyers Remorse (this or that could be better) or Buyers Hysteria (OHMYGOD ITS SO AWESOME THERE IS NO MORE AWESOME LEFT IN THE WORLD I HAVE IT ALL RIGHT HERE! etc), eventually that fades to "Its a nice picture"...then you start thinking about more CR, more resolution, brighter colors, etc

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post #112 of 166 Old 08-10-2007, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

I certainly found the differences between an HD80 and an AE1000U to be rather subtle myself once I was running the better film based sources on them.

That may be, and probably is, true.

I have not seen a HD80 or seen any real measurements of it, but if it is like the HD81, it is not one of the better dlps out there.

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post #113 of 166 Old 08-10-2007, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

I have not seen a HD80 or seen any real measurements of it, but if it is like the HD81, it is not one of the better dlps out there.

What purpose does it serve to make an uneducated guess? They may not be correct but at least they have some information to base an opinion on.

http://projectorcentral.com/optoma_h...tor_review.htm

"I want to restrain myself from using too many gushing superlatives. But it will be difficult, because the HD80 is simply a magnificent projector for the money. Excellent performance in contrast, black level, sharpness, and color combine to make it a riveting home theater experience. And it has ample brightness that can be varied and tailored to a variety of screen sizes and room environments."

"On occasion we find projectors that represent a substantial leap forward in price performance, setting a new image quality standard for a given price range. The Optoma HD80 is one of these rare machines. At an official estimated street price of $2,699, it delivers a remarkable 1080p image that will undoubtedly affect the price structure of the competition in the months to come. It does not have anywhere near the installation flexibility of its competitors, so it takes more effort and planning to get it installed. But those who have the right viewing room to accommodate the HD80 will be rewarded with outstanding 1080p image quality for an amazingly low price. From the moment we lit it up, we had no doubt that we'd be giving the Optoma HD80 our Editor's Choice Award."
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post #114 of 166 Old 08-10-2007, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Also keep in mind that you are considering the Panny at its best with the iris closed. In most scenes that don't have the Iris closed all the way, it will be worse and blacks will suffer even more.

The ~1,700:1 is with the iris off!
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post #115 of 166 Old 08-10-2007, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

What purpose does it serve to make an uneducated guess? They may not be correct but at least they have some information to base an opinion on.

You're absolutely right and I may be wrong. I am basing my opinion (and it is just an opinion) solely on Optoma's past products. Maybe they hit a home run this time. I'll wait for more reviews and user opinios before I fell strong enough about it to try to defend or attack it.

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post #116 of 166 Old 08-10-2007, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

The ~1,700:1 is with the iris off!

I understand that. I was referring to black level only, which will change depending on the position of the Iris.

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post #117 of 166 Old 08-10-2007, 07:48 AM
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off topic: how reliable are DIs? I mean, how long have they been on PJs and have significant issues result with them? This is one other component I try to stay away from when deciding on a PJ.

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post #118 of 166 Old 08-10-2007, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

That may be, and probably is, true.

I have not seen a HD80 or seen any real measurements of it, but if it is like the HD81, it is not one of the better dlps out there.

I agree 100% on the HD81. If one is looking for a high CR pj, the HD81 is a very poor choice.

The HD80 seems to be going through the same hype cycle as the HD81
1) guitarman does a "review" gushing over its performance
2) A few individuals buy the pj and proclaim it the best image they have seen.
3) Projector Central and a few other "suspect" reviewers also support said claims.
4) Respected reviewers like UltimateAVMag and WSR finally get a hold of one.
5) The true performance is revealed.
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post #119 of 166 Old 08-10-2007, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tradewinds View Post

Anyway, I am more than happy with what I have which has 0.001 ft-L black level.

What device and method was used to measure 0.001 ftL?
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post #120 of 166 Old 08-10-2007, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

I agree 100% on the HD81. If one is looking for a high CR pj, the HD81 is a very poor choice.

The HD80 seems to be going through the same hype cycle as the HD81
1) guitarman does a "review" gushing over its performance
2) A few individuals buy the pj and proclaim it the best image they have seen.
3) Projector Central and a few other "suspect" reviewers also support said claims.
4) Respected reviewers like UltimateAVMag and WSR finally get a hold of one.
5) The true performance is revealed.

Having done a little digging, guitarman's review shows a CR 2939:1 and a black level of .042 fl.

If this were a 720p projector people would consider it an average/low performer!

I guess I just formed my opinion! That didn't take long.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/hd80iris12cr.jpg

Affable Nitwit
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