Choosing LCD over DLP for picture quality (no flame war) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 166 Old 07-28-2007, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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On avsforum, there seems to be a general consensus that DLP has a better overall picture than LCD (better black level and contrast, less screendoor and no misconvergence). It looks like people choose LCD only for the lens shift capabilities or because they are sensitive to rainbows and get headaches.

I'm wondering if there are people who actually choose LCD over DLP for picture quality, even if they could use both technologies. In other words are there people who do prefer LCD's overall picture?

I currently have a DLP Infocus X1 and I'm planning to buy an LCD.
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post #2 of 166 Old 07-28-2007, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartok View Post


I'm wondering if there are people who actually choose LCD over DLP for picture quality, even if they could use both technologies. In other words are there people who do prefer LCD's overall picture?

I currently have a DLP Infocus X1 and I'm planning to buy an LCD.

Yes - check the out the screen shots I just posted on the Epson 1080 thread.
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post #3 of 166 Old 07-28-2007, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartok View Post

On avsforum, there seems to be a general consensus that DLP has a better overall picture than LCD (better black level and contrast, less screendoor and no misconvergence). It looks like people choose LCD only for the lens shift capabilities or because they are sensitive to rainbows and get headaches.

I'm wondering if there are people who actually choose LCD over DLP for picture quality, even if they could use both technologies. In other words are there people who do prefer LCD's overall picture?

I currently have a DLP Infocus X1 and I'm planning to buy an LCD.


I've owned and compared a substantial number of both types of projectors and my general observation is that a good DLP will have a bit more "pop" and depth to the picture, but any current LCD model is going to be quite an upgrade over your X1 (yes, I've owned that, too). LCD has come a long way...

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post #4 of 166 Old 07-29-2007, 03:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Clark View Post

I've owned and compared a substantial number of both types of projectors and my general observation is that a good DLP will have a bit more "pop" and depth to the picture, but any current LCD model is going to be quite an upgrade over your X1 (yes, I've owned that, too). LCD has come a long way...

As have DLP and LCOS. Frankly, it's all good and never stops getting better.
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post #5 of 166 Old 07-29-2007, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartok View Post

On avsforum, there seems to be a general consensus that DLP has a better overall picture than LCD (better black level and contrast, less screendoor and no misconvergence). It looks like people choose LCD only for the lens shift capabilities or because they are sensitive to rainbows and get headaches.

This has been discussed to death.
In a nutshell.

...DLP has better ansi contrast NOT better black level
...DLP has better fill factor resulting less SDE and smoother look at a given distance.

...LCD's color are better than DLP
...LCD have no RBE nor dithering like DLP
...New LCD's have FAR better black level with DI than DLP with the exception of a few.
....LCD run cooler and quieter

I bought a Sony HS51A based ONLY on overall picture quality.

If better black level and color and RBE/dithering is not considered a PQ prameter to you and no need for L-shift, one chip DLP fits the bill due to cheaper prices.

It is all about quality...that is the picture

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post #6 of 166 Old 07-29-2007, 11:26 AM
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I don't own a projector yet, but I'm thinking an LCD will be better for my room. The only concern I have is the damage to LCD panels or polarizers from the heat of the lamp. I guess I also have concerns about defective pixals.

==Cocophone==
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post #7 of 166 Old 07-29-2007, 11:59 AM
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I had a semi-extended conversation recently with a projector salesperson who tried quite heartily to steer me to an Epson 400 over a competing DLP model. Not that there's anything wrong with the Epson; I have no doubt anyone could be quite happy with it, but I was leaning toward DLP.

When pressed, the only real advantage he could come up with over the DLPs (again, what HE came up with, I'm not saying there aren't others) was RBE and lens shift. When I told him RBE didn't bother me and my room would accommodate either machine he didn't have much else to say.
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post #8 of 166 Old 07-29-2007, 12:39 PM
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I have a Panny AE900U and a Sharp XV_Z1200MKII--have had many other DLPs as well, including Sharp XV-Z3000, Optoma H31, BenQ PB6100.

They are all great PJs. However, I do seem to --personally--like the DLP picture better.

One thing to consider is that LCDs do still seem to have a problem with screen retention or burn in. I would always stretch the image on my Panny so as not to let the black bars burn in on the panels. I do not like viewing things this way, however.

You do not need to worry about this with DLP.

Just a thought.
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post #9 of 166 Old 07-29-2007, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdbaba View Post

I have a Panny AE900U and a Sharp XV_Z1200MKII--have had many other DLPs as well, including Sharp XV-Z3000, Optoma H31, BenQ PB6100.

They are all great PJs. However, I do seem to --personally--like the DLP picture better.

One thing to consider is that LCDs do still seem to have a problem with screen retention or burn in. I would always stretch the image on my Panny so as not to let the black bars burn in on the panels. I do not like viewing things this way, however.

You do not need to worry about this with DLP.

Just a thought.

I'm pretty sure this is untrue.
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post #10 of 166 Old 07-29-2007, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaspianM View Post

...New LCD's have FAR better black level with DI than DLP with the exception of a few.

This will really be true only in very dark scenes with no bright areas. In dark scenes, the dynamic iris on an LCD can close down to produce better blacks. In mixed scenes with some bright patches, the DLP will probably have better blacks, since the DI can't close down and the higher ANSI contrast of the DLP will give it the advantage.
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post #11 of 166 Old 07-29-2007, 03:11 PM
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"This will really be true only in very dark scenes with no bright areas. In dark scenes, the dynamic iris on an LCD can close down to produce better blacks. In mixed scenes with some bright patches, the DLP will probably have better blacks, since the DI can't close down and the higher ANSI contrast of the DLP will give it the advantage."

This is the main reason I sent my Panasonic PT-AE1000 LCD back and got an Optoma HD80 DLP instead. Both are 1080p projectors. ANSI contrast is very important to me. The washout of blacks in mixed scenes is irritating on LCD. I see no rainbows on the HD80 either.
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post #12 of 166 Old 07-29-2007, 03:55 PM
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Why hasn't anyone made a dlp with a DI like on the Sony LCD's? Wouldn't that then give you best ansi and absolute black level? Who would buy something like that for around $1,300 in a heartbeat? Imagine, 500:1 ANSI and 15,000:1 on/off (I would imagine the on/off would be fairly higher than lcd's using DI, as dlp's native on/off is higher).
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post #13 of 166 Old 07-29-2007, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post

I'm pretty sure this is untrue.

You could be right, but I have read a few threads with people complaining of screen retention on their LCD PJs, including the AE700 and AE900.

Anyone out there have the definitive answer on this?

bdbaba
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post #14 of 166 Old 07-29-2007, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpectralD View Post

This will really be true only in very dark scenes with no bright areas. In dark scenes, the dynamic iris on an LCD can close down to produce better blacks. In mixed scenes with some bright patches, the DLP will probably have better blacks, since the DI can't close down and the higher ANSI contrast of the DLP will give it the advantage.

True.
Not all DLP's nor LCD's have the same ansi & on/off CR.
Average ansi for DLP is about 300:1 while LCD's have about 150:1 like Epson made panels while Sony LCD's are about 250:1 with DI I think, and about 180:1 native.

It is all about quality...that is the picture

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post #15 of 166 Old 07-29-2007, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaspianM View Post

True.
Not all DLP's nor LCD's have the same ansi & on/off CR.
Average ansi for DLP is about 300:1 while LCD's have about 150:1 like Epson made panels while Sony LCD's are about 250:1 with DI I think, and about 180:1 native.

Current DLP's Average >500 ansi at least and up to 800.1 on the top of the line
ie; sharp 20000
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post #16 of 166 Old 07-29-2007, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yocozuna55 View Post

Current DLP's Average >500 ansi at least and up to 800.1 on the top of the line
ie; sharp 20000

There are some more expensive one's about 450:1 or so such as Sharp XV-Z3000.
Average ANSI is about 300ish not 450. I have never read 800:1 unless you are talking about sim HT-5000 with price tag near $50K. I would appreciate if you provide a pointer to such hi ansi's you posted!

It is all about quality...that is the picture

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post #17 of 166 Old 07-30-2007, 08:46 AM
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DLP's with dynamic iris do exists (see Sharp 12K, 3000, Mits HC3000/3100, etc.)

DLP has better image quality than LCD due to superior contrast (absolute blacks of newer LCDs, which may change if there is bright image on the screen, won't help dark details of similar priced DLPs which is what's most important) for the SAME price range.

LCD still suffers from organic panels so won't last as long as DLP. It also has 3 panels so has triple the dust blobs and dead pixel risks along with convergence issues.

LCD has better flexibility of mounting due to lens shift at the same price range as DLP. DLP's do have lens shift but only available on upscale models. LCD has less offset and ideal for ceiling mount whereas cheaper DLP's have higher offset ideal for floor mounting.

DLP has rare rainbow effect on some viewers so buyer beware. The more expensive DLP's have faster color wheel speed and more color wheel segments to lessen (not completely gone) this effect. DLP without color wheel and using LED's can be found on RPTV which eliminates rainbow effects completely (not there yet for FPTV due to brightness issue).

I bought LCD first but then switch to DLP due to my LCD suffering burnt polarizer plate (growing blue blob syndrome) after only 1 year or 2000 hours. I have 3 DLP's now (NEC LT150, Sharp XR10X, and Mits HD1000u). DLP is clearly better to my eyes but yours may be different. All 3 are in perfect running condition.

Huey ;-]
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post #18 of 166 Old 07-30-2007, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huey View Post

DLP's with dynamic iris do exists (see Sharp 12K, 3000, Mits HC3000/3100, etc.)

DLP has better image quality than LCD due to superior contrast (absolute blacks of newer LCDs, which may change if there is bright image on the screen, won't help dark details of similar priced DLPs which is what's most important) for the SAME price range.

LCD still suffers from organic panels so won't last as long as DLP. It also has 3 panels so has triple the dust blobs and dead pixel risks along with convergence issues.

LCD has better flexibility of mounting due to lens shift at the same price range as DLP. DLP's do have lens shift but only available on upscale models. LCD has less offset and ideal for ceiling mount whereas cheaper DLP's have higher offset ideal for floor mounting.

DLP has rare rainbow effect on some viewers so buyer beware. The more expensive DLP's have faster color wheel speed and more color wheel segments to lessen (not completely gone) this effect. DLP without color wheel and using LED's can be found on RPTV which eliminates rainbow effects completely (not there yet for FPTV due to brightness issue).

I bought LCD first but then switch to DLP due to my LCD suffering burnt polarizer plate (growing blue blob syndrome) after only 1 year or 2000 hours. I have 3 DLP's now (NEC LT150, Sharp XR10X, and Mits HD1000u). DLP is clearly better to my eyes but yours may be different. All 3 are in perfect running condition.

Hey Huey,

Just thought I would mention that the Sharps do not have dynamic irises--they are fixed. You can choose between three levels with the XV-Z12000MKII and XV-Z3000--two in the DT-500--but it is not a dynamic iris like in LCD machines. I am not sure about the Mits. as I have never owned one.
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post #19 of 166 Old 07-30-2007, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdbaba View Post

I have a Panny AE900U and a Sharp XV_Z1200MKII--have had many other DLPs as well, including Sharp XV-Z3000, Optoma H31, BenQ PB6100.

They are all great PJs. However, I do seem to --personally--like the DLP picture better.

One thing to consider is that LCDs do still seem to have a problem with screen retention or burn in. I would always stretch the image on my Panny so as not to let the black bars burn in on the panels. I do not like viewing things this way, however.

You do not need to worry about this with DLP.

Just a thought.



There is no screen retention on LCD.
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post #20 of 166 Old 07-30-2007, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaspianM View Post

There are some more expensive one's about 450:1 or so such as Sharp XV-Z3000.
Average ANSI is about 300ish not 450. I have never read 800:1 unless you are talking about sim HT-5000 with price tag near $50K. I would appreciate if you provide a pointer to such hi ansi's you posted!

Here's a link to the sammy 710 review and the measurements were done in a none ideal room too. So it would actually be higher.

http://www.avscience.com/reviews/pro...g_sph710ae.htm

609.1 is what Jason tested

The Infocus got 568.1

The Mitsubishi's dlp's like the hc3000, hc3100 get over 500.1 for sure. Read cine4home.com reviews.


Greg Rogers of Widescreen review measured 800.1 ansi contrast on the sharp 1080p dlp. I can't find the link but you can read the review on the website. Or search the forums for the sharp 2k thread.

Typically LCOS gets 300.1 ansi LCD 250-275.1
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post #21 of 166 Old 07-30-2007, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FiveMillionWays View Post

There is no screen retention on LCD.

Everything below is pasted from an archived thread. I have seen other threads like this. This is why I was always careful with my AE900. Have they fixed this since?

02-27-06, 01:15 PM
Have a Panasonic AE700, prolly 700 hours on it's second bulb (first one went out at 500... ). Anyway, it's connected via component to my Comcast HD-DVR cable box, and through VGA to my computer.


Watched a 4x3 movie last night on digital cable (Braveheart, so ~ 3 hours). When I flipped the input over to VGA for my computer (which is displaying 16x9 1280x720), I noticed the sides of the destop had a very distinct blue tint to them, right where the 'black bars' were from the movie. This is the first time I've ever seen anything like it. After about 30 minutes of PC usage, the 'bars' seemed to go away, and the screen was normal again.

However, during the PC usage, I watched a 20 minute video in Windows Media Player, but not fullscreen. After closing WMP, I noticed the same blue tinted 'box', but this time the same spot that the video was playing in. The rest of the screen, that was only displaying static images, was unaffected.

Again, this eventually went away, but it's very concerning. The blue-tinted boxes and bars were visible across all inputs, so it's gotta be something in the projector itself.

JamesAHall
02-28-06, 09:40 AM
Be VERY careful. What people (like me) are finding out the Panny 700--LCD Burn in IS real. The idea that LCD's can't burn in is a complete myth. I ruined my 700 this way. In fact, I just got done talking to the repair shop, and he said my blue LCD panel has been permamently damaged from excessive 4:3 use. It exhibits the exact same symptoms as your projector, but the bars don't go away.

I don't know what to do now. I love my projector, and the rebate on the 900 runs through today so I'm thinking of upgrading to the 900 and just not using 4:3 mode on it. But EVERYONE BE CAREFUL--extended 4:3 mode viewing WILL RUIN your LCD projector, at least the Panny 700.

Does anyone think I could get any traction with Panasonic on this issue? I am outside of the 1-year warranty by about 4 months.

KOYKOYRAKIS L.
02-28-06, 10:25 AM
I used to think that LCD pannels are immune to burn-in. Not anymore. The LCD screens at the internet cafe that i'm sitting right now suffers from the same symptom. This is most allarming. Even the manual of the 900 i'm having says it. And let's say that, OK, we're not projecting 4:3 in our pj. What about 2,35:1? Those movies have large black bars. Isn't there danger of destroying the panels? What puzlles me though is why my old Sony 400qm with more than 4000 hours didn't have any problems with extensive 2.35:1 projecting...

JamesAHall
02-28-06, 10:42 AM
Yes, I would assume that 2:35:1 is likely to eventually burn in as well. Very disturbing.

I just ordered a Panny 900 to take advantage of the $400 rebate. But my usage is going to be MUCH different with this one. No more 4:3 TV watching for me. And less usage in general to avoid the high bulb price.

Diarmuid
02-28-06, 11:10 AM
I don't know why Panasonic projectors seem to have this. My (unreliable) memory seems to recall far more stories about Panny LCD panel problems than any other yet they use the same panels as Sanyo, Hitachi and Epson. Do they have a consistent panel cooling problem in the AE range?

theJrod
02-28-06, 12:14 PM
Did a few more tests last night - What I find interesting on mine, is that it take an incredibly short time to cause these "ghost" images (seems to be only affecting the blue panel).

For instance, my background pic on my desktop is mostly greys, with two darker shapes in the middle. After leaving the PJ on the b/g image for only 10 minutes(!), I could see the two shosted shapes when I switched to another completely differen screen. Why would this be happening so fricken fast?!? How could the image be burning into the panels so quickly (if that's even possible)?

JamesAHall
02-28-06, 12:18 PM
All of my problems were in the Blue panels as well. There was a very VERY slight darkening of the green panels that I would never have even noticed had the blue pannels not been damaged. The blue ones were the ones that were significantly darkened.
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post #22 of 166 Old 07-30-2007, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdbaba View Post

I have a Panny AE900U and a Sharp XV_Z1200MKII--have had many other DLPs as well, including Sharp XV-Z3000, Optoma H31, BenQ PB6100.

They are all great PJs. However, I do seem to --personally--like the DLP picture better.

One thing to consider is that LCDs do still seem to have a problem with screen retention or burn in. I would always stretch the image on my Panny so as not to let the black bars burn in on the panels. I do not like viewing things this way, however.

You do not need to worry about this with DLP.

Just a thought.

No offence, but my Sony HS-20 has been going for years and I haven't experienced any bunn in. Maybe you were thinking CRT?
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post #23 of 166 Old 07-30-2007, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ Younger View Post

No offence, but my Sony HS-20 has been going for years and I haven't experienced any bunn in. Maybe you were thinking CRT?

No offense taken! I am happy to be wrong as I like my AE900U and I would love to not have to worry about it. I am just going by what I have read others say on AVS, including what I posted above from people having this issue with there AE700U LCD PJs.

Do the people that have this problem actually have something else going on? I am not an expert in any way, but these guys do seem to think they have screen retention happening
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post #24 of 166 Old 07-30-2007, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yocozuna55 View Post

Here's a link to the sammy 710 review and the measurements were done in a none ideal room too. So it would actually be higher.

http://www.avscience.com/reviews/pro...g_sph710ae.htm

609.1 is what Jason tested

The Infocus got 568.1

The Mitsubishi's dlp's like the hc3000, hc3100 get over 500.1 for sure. Read cine4home.com reviews.


Greg Rogers of Widescreen review measured 800.1 ansi contrast on the sharp 1080p dlp. I can't find the link but you can read the review on the website. Or search the forums for the sharp 2k thread.

Typically LCOS gets 300.1 ansi LCD 250-275.1


by HTmag:

Sharp XV-Z2000 (1080p) 606:1
Optoma HD70 441:1
IF IN76 409:1
Sharp XV-Z3000 396:1
Samsung SP-H700AE 370:1

It is all about quality...that is the picture

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post #25 of 166 Old 07-30-2007, 12:09 PM
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Hmmm... I'm just thinking out loud here....

From everything I've read, burn in on LCD panels is impossible and I'm inclined to believe it. However, having taken my LCD projector apart to clean it, I have noticed the polarizers changing color ever so slightly over time from the heat of the lamps. See this thread on LCD cleaning for my original pictures.


Here is a picture of the blue polarizer from my Panny AE300 in that thread:




Its hard to see, but there is a faint 16:9 shaped burn mark in the polarizer. I didn't even notice it myself until some on the thread pointed it out to me (granted I use LCD monitors). For the sake of this thread, I've cranked up the saturation in photoshop to make it a little more visible:




Based on that, I guess if someone viewed primarily 4:3 material (for many, many hours), that the "burnt" section of the polarizer could be 4:3 shaped instead of 16:9. Then when watching widescreen material, there would be a slight, but noticeable color difference between the center and the side bars.

Then again, if the "burnt" section is from the heat of the lamp, even if you are watching 4:3 material, you are still lighting up the whole 16:9 panel so that might not make sense. I watch a mix of 16:9, 2.35:1 and 4:3 and my shape is clearly 16:9.

So anyway, its nothing conclusive but could the polarizers be in the problem instead of the actual LCD panels themselves?
-Matt


P.S. And before anyone gets worried, my polarizer had only the faintest of discoloration... and that was after 2500+ hours. I have heard of other people having problems but they usually don't start to become noticeable until several thousand hours have passed. I now have 3500+ hours on that projector and still don't notice a problem.
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post #26 of 166 Old 07-30-2007, 12:16 PM
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Before I take this thread off track... both my wife and I see RBE. And while I first noticed it because of AVSers telling me how, my wife saw it totally unprompted. We were in a BestBuy and she asked me what all the color flashes were on that row of TVs (all DLP)! And frankly, I believe she is much more sensitive to it than I am as she can barely watch the DLP RPTVs without having to turn away.

I do really like the image DLP projectors put out (minus the RBE of course), but that pretty much puts us in the LCD camp whether we want to be or not. That said, LCDs have made great strides lately and my new Sony AW15 hasn't left me wanting in the picture quality department like other LCDs have in the past.
-Matt
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post #27 of 166 Old 07-30-2007, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpjohnst View Post

Hmmm... I'm just thinking out loud here....

From everything I've read, burn in on LCD panels is impossible and I'm inclined to believe it. However, having taken my LCD projector apart to clean it, I have noticed the polarizers changing color ever so slightly over time from the heat of the lamps. See this thread on LCD cleaning for my original pictures.


Here is a picture of the blue polarizer from my Panny AE300 in that thread:




Its hard to see, but there is a faint 16:9 shaped burn mark in the polarizer. I didn't even notice it myself until some on the thread pointed it out to me (granted I use LCD monitors). For the sake of this thread, I've cranked up the saturation in photoshop to make it a little more visible:




Based on that, I guess if someone viewed primarily 4:3 material (for many, many hours), that the "burnt" section of the polarizer could be 4:3 shaped instead of 16:9. Then when watching widescreen material, there would be a slight, but noticeable color difference between the center and the side bars.

Then again, if the "burnt" section is from the heat of the lamp, even if you are watching 4:3 material, you are still lighting up the whole 16:9 panel so that might not make sense. I watch a mix of 16:9, 2.35:1 and 4:3 and my shape is clearly 16:9.

So anyway, its nothing conclusive but could the polarizers be in the problem instead of the actual LCD panels themselves?
-Matt


P.S. And before anyone gets worried, my polarizer had only the faintest of discoloration... and that was after 2500+ hours. I have heard of other people having problems but they usually don't start to become noticeable until several thousand hours have passed. I now have 3500+ hours on that projector and still don't notice a problem.

Thanks for the great post. Never took my PJ apart before. Very interesting. When I use my Panny I think I will still stretch things to fit the screen just to be safe. I want it to be in good condition when i sell it. I am going to sell the Panny soon and just keep the Sharp.
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post #28 of 166 Old 07-30-2007, 12:38 PM
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Yup I have never heard of burn-in with LCD panels either.
Some of the new LCD panel are non-organic anyway.

Regarding ANSi again.. Most hi reading from DLP comes from the fact that they are brighter pj's not bcause they do black in mixed better. They do but not a whole lot.
Ansi higher than 300:1 is hardly achievable with any DLP if you don't have pitch black walls and ceiling and it is only possible with that kinda room and only if the original material is encoded with such hi ansi CR..

It is all about quality...that is the picture

JVC & NEC 8" CRT with 106" wide Stewart screen. All NHT speakers driven by Pioneer Elite AVR and bluray

Custom dedicated 8 seat theater

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post #29 of 166 Old 07-30-2007, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpjohnst View Post

Before I take this thread off track... both my wife and I see RBE. And while I first noticed it because of AVSers telling me how, my wife saw it totally unprompted. We were in a BestBuy and she asked me what all the color flashes were on that row of TVs (all DLP)! And frankly, I believe she is much more sensitive to it than I am as she can barely watch the DLP RPTVs without having to turn away.

I do really like the image DLP projectors put out (minus the RBE of course), but that pretty much puts us in the LCD camp whether we want to be or not. That said, LCDs have made great strides lately and my new Sony AW15 hasn't left me wanting in the picture quality department like other LCDs have in the past.
-Matt

This mirrors my wife and I's experience (so I hope the AW15 I just ordered works as well for me as it appears to do so for you--I went with an LCD projector for the same reason--plus the lens shifting).
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post #30 of 166 Old 07-30-2007, 02:03 PM
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Interesting, my wife just veto'd a DLP purchase in favor of LCOS. She did make comments eluding to seeing raibow-ish stuff on borders.

Good thing, on my own, I decided to go for LCD in our theater.
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