Epson Home Cinema 720 Owner's Thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1694 Old 01-01-2008, 12:19 PM
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Not mixed, just rather colored buy much more expensive projectors.

Sounded largely positive to me.
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post #182 of 1694 Old 01-01-2008, 12:58 PM
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yeah it basically says the RS2 is better but for the cost it better be, sounds like this one is solid though
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post #183 of 1694 Old 01-01-2008, 01:55 PM
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Yes, I realize he apologized over and over for watching it right after the RS2 review, but he also says this, independent of that:

Quote:


Black level performance for the Epson seemed pretty average for 720p projectors

I was hoping for a bit more than that, from the preliminary reports we've received here thus far.

Anyway, I'm glad the review will be out soon.
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post #184 of 1694 Old 01-01-2008, 08:00 PM
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He also states "haven’t spent much time on the Theater Black modes yet" thats where you will get the black level performance....
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post #185 of 1694 Old 01-04-2008, 07:42 AM
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For those who already own the Epson Home Cinema 720, have you attempted a calibration? If so, what results have your adjustments yielded?

I spent some time last night fooling with the RGB (grayscale) and RGBCMY (hue and saturation) controls, and, though I actually am quite pleased with the picture, I can't say that the grayscale calibration was terribly scientific. I wish I had the appropriate tools because it seems like too much of a guessing game to eyeball it and I end up feeling like the outcome is a disappointing compromise.

Without looking at the menu, I can't tell you what my settings are off the top of my head (I'll post those soon, though, for anyone wishing to use them as a starting point), but I can tell you that initially, red was extremely prevalent in all of the IRE fields from 10 through 100. On the plain gray image, excess red is much easier to detect than green or blue so I hope I didn't overcompensate, but I pulled the red way way down. Green then became the issue, with so little red it came through quite visibly. So I pulled green down as much as I could and bumped red back a little to compensate. Blue is very hard to detect so I could be a little high on that since I didn't fiddle much with it. Basically, pulled green and red way down, both offset and gain.

For color, I found again that I needed to dial red way down. Yellow needed tweaking, as did magenta. Blue and cyan weren't terrible. Using the green color bars with flashing hue and saturation swatches, I hardly touched the settings. Through the filter, I couldn't see any real trouble with green, but when I flipped on some demo material, it seemed like flesh tones were a little sickly. This phenomenon seemed to be highly dependent upon the scene, however, which may indicate that it is actually part of the image. In the HD-DVD of "The Last Samurai", interior shots with warm lighting revealed some of that greenish tint in skin tones. When the action moved outside at night, though, skin appeared very natural. A pale peach, with none of the unpleasantly over-saturated reds, and lacking the green intrusion I'd previously noted.

A standard brightness/contrast adjustment with needle steps and pulses really improved the linearity of shadows. Previously, I'd felt that some detail became lost as lighting diminished in a scene, with black arriving far too soon. Also, in Theater Black 1, white isn't exactly Chlorox bright, so bumping up that white level restored some brilliance.

Well, that's what I've found so far. I have to say that the grayscale calibration really demonstrated the convergence issues inherent in these 3LCD projectors. On every IRE field, red always was accentuated heavily in the upper-left corner, and green was equally so in the lower-right. The anomaly doesn't reveal itself in regular viewing and it is nearly invisible at 100 IRE and too dim to notice at 10 IRE, so it likely won't be an issue because extreme white and black are really the only steps in the grayscale that are ever displayed full-screen in any material I've ever watched.

I'll be very interested to hear what others have concluded!
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post #186 of 1694 Old 01-04-2008, 08:35 AM
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Quote:


Black level performance for the Epson seemed pretty average for 720p projectors

THis was from watching mostly Dynamic mode. I can't watch that mode for more than a few minutes without turning it off,the colors and blacks are so off. Its is a brightness at all costs mode. Hopefully with some more time to check out the other modes his tune will change.


As far as calibration, I haven't messed with the projector yet. I just hit 120 hours, so I am ready to calibrate, but I am looking for a starting point, maybe read a little back and forth of a tweak thread before getting started, it has more features than I am used to.
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post #187 of 1694 Old 01-04-2008, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skablaw View Post

Some of the reviews out there are being done by people with 120" or larger screens. The Sony can't effectively cope with screen sizes this large, but, frankly, and I don't mean to step on any toes here, if you're putting together a theater of that scale, you should budget for more than an entry-level projector anyhow.

You missed my toes... However, assuming Art's full review puts the HC720 on par with the Panny AX200, I'm going to pick up this Epson and project a 120" image in my living room. My dedicated HT room (planning phase right now) will get a "big boy" PJ. Food for thought...

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post #188 of 1694 Old 01-04-2008, 01:19 PM
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This was just posted at PC by Evan Powell:

I will give you some brief thoughts on the Epson products here, and save the details for the final reviews. First, Epson has clearly taken their home theater projectors to a new level. Not only are the Pro Cinema 1080 UB and Home Cinema 720 projectors large steps ahead of their previous models, but they are without a doubt the most competitive home theater projectors we've ever seen from Epson. With these models, Epson enters the top ranks in overall home theater industry price/performance - in our opinion for the first time.

The Cinema Pro 1080 UB has excellent black level, contrast, and color saturation for the money. It is appropriately priced above the Panasonic AE2000, for its image quality in terms of these key parameters is a clear notch above the AE2000 as well. Conversely, the 1080 UB is priced well under the JVC RS2, and this is also as it should be. The RS2 is the superior projector in terms of black levels, contrast, and saturation. For the premium dollar you spend on the RS2, you get visibly better performance. So as we've seen before, you can safely discard the official contrast ratings (50,000:1 on the 1080 UB vs. 30,000:1 on the RS2) as reliable guides to relative contrast performance.

We have not yet had the opportunity to do side by side testing between the Epson 1080 UB and the JVC RS1. This will be an important section in the review since these two models are more closely matched in price and performance. The fact is, you can get either one of them and end up with a magnificent home theater set up.

As far as the Epson Cinema 720 is concerned, this is a beautiful 720p resolution product that represents a significant improvement over the Cinema 400 in contrast, saturation, and color accuracy. Bill will have more to say about this in the review, but the Cinema 720 is highly competitive at its current street price level. Epson fans can order this one today without any fear of not getting top performance for the dollar spent.
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post #189 of 1694 Old 01-04-2008, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audixium View Post

You missed my toes... However, assuming Art's full review puts the HC720 on par with the Panny AX200, I'm going to pick up this Epson and project a 120" image in my living room. My dedicated HT room (planning phase right now) will get a "big boy" PJ. Food for thought...

I was probably a bit dismissive in my earlier statement. Given the state of the industry, it probably isn't unrealistic to expect a passable, if not excellent 120" image at this price point. I actually think that the Epson Home Cinema 720 is exactly the projector to accomplish this! Save yourself the Panasonic headaches (and cash in on a $100 rebate plus a free replacement lamp) by going with Epson and I think you'll be quite happy. I've had mine project more than 110" and was very satisfied with the outcome, even in "best" mode.

At any rate, my point was more as a counter to some of the "professional" commentary on Sony's VPL-AW15, which is really an outstanding projector. I'm not sure why it gets bad press because owners are widely satisfied, and I was almost wooed on color accuracy alone. It puts out a very pleasing image. Just not one that's going to burn a hole in your wall.
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post #190 of 1694 Old 01-04-2008, 02:50 PM
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I think near this $1k price point (give or take), a lot more people like me are willing to give a PJ a shot in a living room situation, which completely changes the game for manufacturers. Sure I could go get a 60" LCD to replace my old 46" Sony HD RP CRT. But at my 13 foot viewing distance the 60" will still seem puny compared to a 100" plus PJ image at an 18 foot viewing distance.

So for some living room users, I think the PJ has the ability to supplant that new LCD or Plasma purchase. Because the HC720 and Panny AX200 are light cannons (relative to past budget projectors), I think more and more people will start to seriously consider them over a smaller direct view display replacement.

Heck, I'm going to keep the 46" HDTV in the living room for most normal viewing. Then for our favorite HD shows, sports or movies I'll fire up the Epson. And specifically for sports, I've configured my room so that I can have one game on the 46" TV and the "main event" on the PJ + surround.


Quote:
Originally Posted by skablaw View Post

Save yourself the Panasonic headaches (and cash in on a $100 rebate plus a free replacement lamp) by going with Epson and I think you'll be quite happy.

Ok - but let me just see Art's review first...

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post #191 of 1694 Old 01-04-2008, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audixium View Post

Ok - but let me just see Art's review first...


As three months slowly slide by.
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post #192 of 1694 Old 01-04-2008, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audixium View Post

Ok - but let me just see Art's review first...

Will do, but do be sure to read the thread about PT-AX200U issues first as well.
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post #193 of 1694 Old 01-04-2008, 05:19 PM
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Is this a good projector for Playing Games such as PS3?

Has anyone hooked up their game system yet?

Thanks in advance.
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post #194 of 1694 Old 01-04-2008, 08:21 PM
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Xbox is incredible in living room mode.
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post #195 of 1694 Old 01-04-2008, 08:54 PM
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yeah wheres the review....its almost Saturday!
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post #196 of 1694 Old 01-04-2008, 11:17 PM
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You mean he is not gonna make the Thanksgiving deadline?
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post #197 of 1694 Old 01-05-2008, 03:55 AM
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Clearly, he doesnt work for Perry White.

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post #198 of 1694 Old 01-05-2008, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjn View Post

You mean he is not gonna make the Thanksgiving deadline?

Maybe he meant Thanksgiving 2008?

Have an Onkyo 805 receiver and having trouble setting up Audyssey? HERE is a mini how-to.Click HERE to check out my comparison review of 5 different projection screen fabrics.
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post #199 of 1694 Old 01-05-2008, 12:22 PM
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Art's a little slow but when he finally gets it posted its always good...I'll take quality over quantity anyday (but I'd rather have both)...also, he's been posting to a blog for us impatient fanatics.

http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/
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post #200 of 1694 Old 01-05-2008, 05:47 PM
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I had the chance to spend some time watching the playoffs on my friends pj today.I was very impressed,very rich color very natural looking and nice brightness.I look forward to review by Art but imho The Epson 720 is a knockout.

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post #201 of 1694 Old 01-05-2008, 06:20 PM
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It's up.

http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso..._720/index.php

He's still not keen on the black levels, but says it makes up for it with shadow detail.

Overall pretty positive, but he gives the edge to the Panny for "film-like" quality.

Quote:


The Panasonic has the advantage in overall brightness, but the Epson is second in the field, particularly when comparing the brightest modes. I'd definitely favor the Epson for sports viewing, with its richer colors, and crisper image. The Panasonic, and the Epson are pretty close for movie viewing, but I'd probably give the Panasonic the edge in its Cinema 1 mode (which is more film-like), although if you want extra lumens, the Panasonic Vivid Cinema mode is brighter than Epson's Theatre or Theater Black 1 mode, but also gives up the Panasonic's Cinema 1 film-like advantage.

If it's "close", I guess that's good enough for me to go for the Epson, considering my limited options in Canada. For the price, it sounds like a pretty good deal.
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post #202 of 1694 Old 01-05-2008, 06:58 PM
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Finally! I was half kidding with the Thanksgiving comment. Art does do a *great* job and I understand that takes time. I think he just needs to work on his review completion projections. In business, "if you tell them 3 days and it takes 2 you have a very happy customer. If you tell them 1 day and it takes 2, you have an unhappy customer. Same time frame, just different expectations."

Anyway, I'm gonna think it over for a few days, but I'm pretty sure I'll be getting a 720. If I go with a gray screen I think black levels will be okay. I mostly watch movies and wish he would have given higher marks in that regard, but you can't have everything. Considering the whole, I still think the 720 seems like a great option. Especially if I can get the price knocked down a little. That combined with the free lamp and $100 rebate should be an excellent deal.

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post #203 of 1694 Old 01-05-2008, 08:13 PM
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yeah i dont think 1080p is worth the money, considering this is almost a third the price, its better to buy this and then just buy something better in 2 years
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post #204 of 1694 Old 01-05-2008, 10:51 PM
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I'm fighting the urge to be defensive, but I think the review was pretty objective. I would say that Art gives a fairly accurate breakdown of the pros and cons of this unit.

What I do take issue with is that I don't feel the Epson's competition has been as dispassionately considered. Art really oohed and ahhed over the Mitsubishi HC1500, and though I would wholeheartedly agree that it is a great looking budget projector, it does not have superior black levels, or a superior overall image to the Epson. I have A/Bed Sony's VPL-AW15 and the HC1500 after careful adjustment and the Sony is definitely better. I have subsequently A/Bed the VPL-AW15 and the Home Cinema 720, and the 720 is almost as good as the Sony. I realize my reasoning is a bit inductive, but I really would not give the Mitsubishi the edge in overall image quality in comparison to either of those LCD units. The Mitsubishi's advantage over the Optoma puts the HD70 even further behind, though not by much.

I haven't been reviewing projectors for years, but my recent experiences researching my own purchase have limited my scope specifically to sub-$1,500 720p projectors and I have seen almost all of them. If you were to put all of the units fitting my price limit into the ring, I really feel that the Panasonic, Epson, and Sony are 1, 2, and 3. The Panasonic has the best combination of traits, but I shied from it purely on warranty and Panasonic's spotty reputation for reliability, though if it were borne out that this is not a legitimate concern for the PT-AX200U, I would have chosen it over the Epson. The Sony's cinema mode with its iris AI fully engaged yields the best image of any of these projectors, but it doesn't have any other modes going for it and I was relieved at having picked up the Epson today when I was playing Call of Duty 3 with daylight streaming in through the living-room windows. That's something the Sony just can't do, and, for me, it was a deal breaker. It took third place because it's really a one-trick pony.

There are some incredible sale prices going for some truly exceptional DLP projectors, which puts them into my price class. If we take these clearance or incentive price units into consideration then Sharp's DT-510, Mitsubishi's HD3000, and Optoma's HD7100 take top-honors over the LCDs.

The BenQ W500, Mitsubishi HC1500, Optoma HD70 and Acer PH530 aren't different enough in overall image quality to make much of a distinction. Of those I would take the BenQ if I needed the lens shift, otherwise I'd go for the PH530 because they're practically giving it away and it has replacement lamps going for $200, which makes it a fantastic choice if you just want something to tide you over until 1080p becomes more economical.

Well, that's what I think. I'm not a professional so my opinion may not count for spit, but hopefully it will prove helpful. I can't speak to Art's frame of mind going into this review, but, though it was extremely good of him to disclose the context of his viewing by admitting that he has been watching much more expensive projectors lately, I think he still understates the effect this may have had. I A/Bed the VPL-VW60 and VPL-AW15 and there was absolutely no contest, but that's why the two models exist. If the AW15 could compete with the VW60, then Sony wouldn't have both products. They're marketed in completely different ways to completely different customers and the same is true for the Home Cinema 720 and the JVC DLA-RS2. If the JVC didn't blow the Epson out of the water, why the heck would anyone pay $7,000+ for it?

I have to call into question Art's concluding statement that "while [the Epson] makes for a good projector for movies, those seeking perfection will look elsewhere." If you're seeking perfection, then SIM2 will happily relieve you of $32,000 for a C3X 1080. At $1,100, people may be seeking perfection, but I think most of them understand that they aren't likely to find it. If his assertion is that it can be found in another projector at this price point (and yes, I know he is referring to movie-watching), then I'd like very much to hear his recommendation because I must have missed it during my search.

Well I'm off to enjoy my "not as good as most of the competition" black levels and "not quite as film-like" image!
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post #205 of 1694 Old 01-05-2008, 11:21 PM
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Excellent post, skablaw. A lot of useful information there, thanks.

I think I'm sold on the Epson at this point. The Panny is a sexy machine, but the 720's 2-year warranty and Epson's reliability are too important to overlook. I just don't trust Panasonic. Plus, the 200 costs nearly twice in Canada what it does in the States, when our dollar is now above par. So, yeah, screw them.

edit: Except now I want a 1080UB
http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog...irst-thoughts/

Quote:


For those of you setting their clocks by my reviews (which are usually a couple of days late), I'm hoping to publish the full review on Tuesday or Wed, the 15th or 16th.

Heh, I wonder who he's talking about there.
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post #206 of 1694 Old 01-06-2008, 12:09 AM
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I just skimmed the review, its late, and I have been enjoying my projector all night. I will read it thoroughly tomorrow. He has some interesting points. Most of Arts Comparison photos the 720 photos look terrible(just the HC720 ones). So bad that its like they just happened to come out bad, no way the scene of the wet bricks in Aeon Flux looked that bad. Or the re-entry from space cowboys(labeled vpl-vw60) looked that bad on the pj, I just watched some of that movie tonight and it looked great, but you don't have to tell me how hard screen shots are to take. He gives the panny the nod in film like picture, I would expect that with smooth screen, and I prefer the sharper image. I am surprised by his talk of weak blacks. I had them(in my mind) right there, maybe a half notch below, the Sony Aw15. But I watch everything in theater black 1 with Iris on. (except when Playing Xbox). I have noticed the improved shadow detail over the Sony. So basically, the review was everything I thought it would be except I thought he would have some better things to say about the blacks and have hit this PJ with the best in class tag, but I haven't seen the 200U(only the 100U), maybe the blacks are better? But if they are close I will go for the sharper image every time, and I can't wait to calibrate. I know this image can be made even better. Theater black 1 is very nice, but with all those lumens to play with I bet there is a perfect tweaked mode with a little more punch, a little more detail, perfect colors, and some richer blacks. We need to get that tweak thread going.
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post #207 of 1694 Old 01-06-2008, 09:40 AM
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From reading Arts review it seems like the 720 is identical in every way to my Epson TW 700.

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post #208 of 1694 Old 01-07-2008, 04:49 AM
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Hi, I'm a new owner of this unit. So far I've only watched SD DVD on a Sony upconverting DVD player. Hooked up by HDMI cable. When I set my DVD player to 720p, the projector tells me my resolution is 750p. When I set the DVD player to AUTO or 1080i, the projector says my resolution is 1125i. Anyone else notice this or am I doing something wrong?

BTW I'll post more about the projector after I've spent a few hours watching it.
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post #209 of 1694 Old 01-07-2008, 07:45 AM
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3mar67,

What you're seeing is normal. In North America the 1080 / 720 is the number of lines in the active picture area of the signal. In Asia / Europe they state the active picture lines + the vertical blankiing lines. So 1080+VBI=1125.

Jonathan
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post #210 of 1694 Old 01-07-2008, 08:49 AM
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NOTE: the context for the quote below is not included and thus it should not be interpreted that skablaw would actually buy the PH530 over the HC720. Please read his entire post to get the context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skablaw View Post

...otherwise I'd go for the PH530 because they're practically giving it away and it has replacement lamps going for $200, which makes it a fantastic choice if you just want something to tide you over until 1080p becomes more economical.

I thought I had convinced myself to go with the HC720 over the AX200. Then you had to go and say that about the Acer! Now I'm thinking the Acer is less than half the price of the HC720, could potentially have decent enough quality for a one year lifespan, and then I would go with a 1080p PJ. This will be my first PJ and I have ambient light issues - tell me I'm going mad...

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