Epson Home Cinema 720 tweak thread - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 91 Old 01-06-2008, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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The following settings were arrived at using only the Ovation Software Avia Guide to Home Theater standard-definition DVD. I am projecting a 92" diagonal image on a flat white surface with varying interior lighting. The only input I currently utilize is Component, with my sources being a Denon DVD-5910 DVD player, an Xbox 360 with HD-DVD drive, and a Sony Playstation 3. The calibration disc was fed via the internal DVD drive of the Xbox 360 (I find it helpful to have my calibration disc in this drive and a demo disc on the HD-DVD drive because I can switch between the two quickly without changing source components, which could introduce other variables).

I have made adjustments to some of the standard color modes that are preprogrammed into the unit. In each instance, I allowed the projector to fully warm up before beginning and did my calibration in the context of the intended viewing conditions. Dynamic mode was adjusted with significant ambient daylight coming from unobstructed windows, which cast light perpendicularly to the screen. Living Room mode was adjusted with controlled daylight, but with three 40W lamps on. Theatre Black 1 was adjusted in total darkness, but with white walls, reflected light was not ideal.

Note that I have not adjusted Sharpness yet, but I will post my results when I do. Also, I am not completely familiar with how the Epson's settings impact one another. I do know that under Input Adjustment, you may either choose to adjust White Level/Black Level or Brightness/Contrast, but you cannot impact both simultaneously. My guess is these are identical, but use names that may be more familiar to one set of users or another. Within Color Adjustment -> RGB/RGBCMY, you may adjust either RGB or RGBCMY; not both. This seems odd to me as RGB should be a grayscale adjustment and RGBCMY should be a Hue and Saturation adjustment (and they are marked as such in their units), but if you select RGB, the image reflects one color palette, while choosing RGBCMY will alter the image to a different palette. Why this is, I do not know, but perhaps we will find out in time. For my purposes, I select the RGBCMY setting and make adjustments based on this as I have no way of accurately calibrating grayscale offset and gain for the primaries. Color Adjustment -> Gamma may be altered, but this setting will always show "Customized" if you tinker with the other Color Adjustment settings.

Color Mode: Dynamic
Input Adjustment -> Brightness/Contrast -> Brightness = -7
Input Adjustment -> Brightness/Contrast -> Contrast = 1
Color Saturation = -4
Tint = -2
Color Adjustment -> Abs. Color Temp. = 6500K
Color Adjustment -> Skin Tone = 3
Color Adjustment -> RGB/RGBCMY -> RGBCMY ->
R Hue = -58
R Saturation = 13
G Hue = 0
G Saturation = 2
B Hue = -28
B Saturation = 6
C Hue = 12
C Saturation = 4
M Hue = 1
M Saturation = 10
Y Hue = 11
Y Saturation = -5
Auto Iris = On

Color Mode: Living Room
Input Adjustment -> Brightness/Contrast -> Brightness = -6
Input Adjustment -> Brightness/Contrast -> Contrast = 2
Color Saturation = -24
Tint = -2
Color Adjustment -> Abs. Color Temp. = 6500K
Color Adjustment -> Skin Tone = 4
Color Adjustment -> RGB/RGBCMY -> RGBCMY ->
R Hue = -58
R Saturation = 13
G Hue = 0
G Saturation = 2
B Hue = -28
B Saturation = 6
C Hue = 12
C Saturation = 4
M Hue = 1
M Saturation = 10
Y Hue = 11
Y Saturation = -5
Auto Iris = On

Color Mode: Theatre Black 1
Input Adjustment -> Brightness/Contrast -> Brightness = -7
Input Adjustment -> Brightness/Contrast -> Contrast = 2
Color Saturation = 1
Tint = 1
Color Adjustment -> Abs. Color Temp. = 6500K
Color Adjustment -> Skin Tone = 3
Color Adjustment -> RGB/RGBCMY -> RGBCMY ->
R Hue = -58
R Saturation = 13
G Hue = 0
G Saturation = 2
B Hue = -28
B Saturation = 6
C Hue = 12
C Saturation = 4
M Hue = 1
M Saturation = 10
Y Hue = 11
Y Saturation = -5
Auto Iris = On

That's the extent of what I've done thus far. Again, I'm not yet certain as to the interplay of the various settings, and, as you can see, it seems that I am tied to a single set of RGBCMY settings, but there may be a way to customize this for each mode that I've yet to discover. At any rate, I hope it proves useful, and I certainly encourage others to experiment and post their findings as they quite possibly (and more than likely) will provide even better results!

Please note that I have striven for the best possible cinematic image. I don't watch sports on this projector (I save that for the plasma), and I don't watch much video-based television material. There is a different chromatic ideal for such source material so please do not expect that my suggestions will yield a pleasing rendering of such programming.
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post #2 of 91 Old 01-10-2008, 09:47 AM
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skablaw,

I really like how you calibrated for the different enviroments. I will do the same when I get around to this stage.

I was going to approach this a little bit differently. My intention was to start with Art's www.projectorreviews.com settings for gray scale and then go through with my Avia, etc and make my adjustments. I understand that you can't accept another projector's gray scale settings as perfect for your personal machine, but it seems no more arbitrary to me than accepting the factory defaults as a starting point for everybody to compare settings. When I made the adjustments that Art made, I was quite pleased with the results.

What do you think?
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post #3 of 91 Old 01-11-2008, 08:14 PM
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Thanks for the settings. I am just starting to play around. Skblaw. They seemed to darken Theater Black up a bit too much for me while watching Gladiator. I am alos having a bit of trouble switching to and from the memory setting and the original theater black 1 setting. I am going to have to read over the manual a little closer.
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post #4 of 91 Old 01-17-2008, 01:46 PM
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Good to see this thread here, I'm about to pull the trigger on one of these and will try to post my own results.
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post #5 of 91 Old 01-20-2008, 11:30 AM
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I posted this in the calibration forum and thought I'd post here too:

"I got my first projector (an Epson Home Cinema 720), but am still waiting for cables to arrive so I haven't got to spend time with it. Anyway, reading the manual, the projector has brightness/contrast adjustments in one drop down menu, then black level/white level adjustments in another drop down menu.

This is my first projector and I'm coming from a Sony CRT RPTV. That TV only had brightness/contrast adjustments. With test discs, I feel I've gained a fairly good understanding of brightness/contrast and how to calibrate. Now I'm confused with the additional black/white level adjustments on the projector?"


skablaw, have you got to play around with the projector enough to see if they are indeed the same controls with different names? Hopefully, cables arrive mid-week and I want to dive in with calibration and have a better understanding before I start. Thanks!

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post #6 of 91 Old 02-24-2008, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad T View Post

skablaw, have you got to play around with the projector enough to see if they are indeed the same controls with different names? Thanks!

From what I can tell, the "Black Level" makes larger changes than "Contrast" does as it also darkens the overall picture. On the flip side of things, oddly enough, "White Level" makes finer adjustments than "Brightness" does and seems to mute the highlights.

From my experience so far with the HC720, I get better results using the Black/White Levels control than the other. Of course, YMMV depending on the screen and lighting conditions. ATM, I am using a 106" 1.2 gain flat white screen thumb tacked to the wall (has given pretty good results for the last 3 years with my old InFocus SP4800) but I will be upgrading to an Elite 1.1 gain light grey screen within the next couple of weeks to help out a little on those blackest blacks.

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post #7 of 91 Old 02-26-2008, 09:26 PM
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BTW, I thought I would share my current HC720 settings if anyone cares to try them. Honestly, I think it looks rather real and natural. It's definately the best I've seen so far of any projector or TV.

Also, my screen is a 1.2 gain flat white, 106" and the room is completely dark while watching movies.


Color Mode: Theatre Black 1

Input Adjustment -> White/Black Levels ->
White Level = +7
Black Level = +3
Color Saturation = 0
Tint = 2

Color Adjustment ->
Abs. Color Temp. = 7000K
Skin Tone = 2
RGB/RGBCMY = RGBCMY

Sharpness Advance ->
High Band = +11
Low Band = +11
H-Sharpness = +6
V-Sharpness = +6

Gama = 2.2

Auto Iris = On


Let me know what you think if you try these settings.

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post #8 of 91 Old 02-27-2008, 07:10 AM
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Hello,

Happy as hell HC720 owner here. Here are some calibration numbers I have found work great (on my PJ, results may vary). These were done at the 100 hr mark on the bulb. So far so good, lets get this thread rolling, the more input the better.

Picture = color mode = Theater Black 1

Input adjustment = white/black = white level = -6
black level = +2

brightness/contrast = brightness = -1
contrast = -5

Color Saturation = +3

Tint = +3

Sharpness = Advanced = HBE +11
LBE +11
H Sharp +7
V Sharp +7

Color Adjustment = color temp = 6500K
skin tone 3
RGB = offset R -5
offset G -3
offset B +2
gain R -8
gain G -3
gain B +2

Gamma = custom from graph = (1)(5)(7)(7)(6)(6)(5)(7)(9)

Iris - off

Image = Aspect = Through
Epson Super White = off
Progressive = off
Out put Scaling = Larger
Set up Level = 0%


Hope this helps

Lyle

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post #9 of 91 Old 02-27-2008, 09:00 AM
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I've got the main settings (brightness, contrast, color, tint, & sharpness) setup really good on my HC720 by using Avia and DVE, but the tough one is grayscale as calibration/measuring equipment is needed to do the best job.

Can somebody give a "dummy" guide on what equipment to buy and how to setup grayscale with a front projector and more specifically the HC720? Or provide a link that summarizes it well?

Gamma is also a tough setting. Any tips on that would be great as well.

Thanks!

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post #10 of 91 Old 02-29-2008, 11:11 AM
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What diference will i see if i move the 720 from 17' throw with 3/4 down vertical shift.
To 10' throw and no shift.
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post #11 of 91 Old 03-15-2008, 03:46 PM
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craig: You will get alot more light output, it shouldnt change your color or levels, but it might be the diff between low lamp mode and high lamp mode. Projector central says you will get 25% brighter, and by not using the lens shift you will further brighten the image.



Now for my question. Everyone here seems to tame down the reds. Using the first posters settings, the show HOUSE has everyones lips being too blue for my tastes, but whites look white. Using the posted settings and changing the hue or the color temp doesnt help. I ended up going back to default colors, but i really liked the first posters setting, other then the bluish lips. With default colors lips and skin tones look nice, but grass doesnt look right, and blonde peoples hair looks greenish. It doesnt look golden like the first posters settings.

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post #12 of 91 Old 03-15-2008, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightanole View Post

craig: You will get alot more light output, it shouldnt change your color or levels, but it might be the diff between low lamp mode and high lamp mode. Projector central says you will get 25% brighter, and by not using the lens shift you will further brighten the image.



Now for my question. Everyone here seems to tame down the reds. Using the first posters settings, the show HOUSE has everyones lips being too blue for my tastes, but whites look white. Using the posted settings and changing the hue or the color temp doesnt help. I ended up going back to default colors, but i really liked the first posters setting, other then the bluish lips. With default colors lips and skin tones look nice, but grass doesnt look right, and blonde peoples hair looks greenish. It doesnt look golden like the first posters settings.

Use Big Lyle's settings. That's what I'm using, except, I have the auto Iris on.

No animals were harmed in the creation of this sentence.
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post #13 of 91 Old 03-21-2008, 01:56 PM
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Anybody else finding it hard to dial in skin tones with this PJ? I've tried Lyle's settings, as well as others, and though they are OK on most sources, some (particularly these NCAA games on CBS) faces are looking a little green behind the gills, so to speak.
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post #14 of 91 Old 04-03-2008, 02:02 PM
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Hello all owners of HC720,

As promised, here is my final D65 cal data...

Important Notice

This results was performed with an HD-DVD A2 Set to 480i output to a
DVDO VP50 upscaling signal to 720P native ratio ( Mapping 1:1), all
setting on VP50 was at 0... nothing was adjusted from the scaler. I did
all the adjustements from the epson HC720. Output was feed to PJ
from a RGB colorspace. Output HDMI to HDMI

So depending of your personal gears, all my setting would not produced
the same results on your screen but greyscale for sure will be improved.
So feel free to tried it and leaved me feedbacks....


Softwares and hardwares used :

- Colorimeter Syder II with filter on it
- Light meter
- HCFR 2.0, Avia, Get gray, THX disk, DVDO test patterns

Lets Started....

1- Colormode TheaterBlack 1
2- Color Saturation -7
3- Tint 2
4- Sharpness Advanced
HBE 11
LBE 11
H-Sharp. 3
V-Sharp. 3
5- ColorTemp 6500K
6- Skintone 3
7- RGB/RGBCMY set at RGB

I was not able to adjusted RGBCMY without affecting the Grayscale, so I ditched this mode for RGB only, that sad you cannot use both at the same time, it is really strange it seem you could not adjust color decoder without
affecting the grayscale, anyway I preferred keep a good grayscale instead,

Offset Red 11
Offset Green -7
Offset Blue -18
Gain Red -3
Gain Green 0
Gain Blue -6

8- Gamma personn. (1),(4),(4),(5),(4),(1),(3),(-4),(1)
Got a gamma almost flat for all IRE Range at 2.2~2.3

9 - ( This will be differents from what colorspace you feed the PJ, Tried to
adjust with Avia or Getgray if you found result bad )

White Level 7
Black Level -5

I have Got 18 FT-lamberts on 96 in 16/9 Diag white matte Gain 1.1 screen

10- Aspect Ratio set at Through

11- Epson Super white Off

12- Output Scaling set at Larger

13- DVI-Video Level Set At expanded

14- IRIS ON


With all thoses setting on my PJ, I did manage to get a great D65 flat
line and almost perfect gamma for all IRE RANGE, first thing I noticed, is
that the image have more POPS, better color saturation, No blue push
at low IRE ( Blacks are blacks without blue tint on it ). I did not get good
results at all with Blue Filter for Saturation and Tint adjustement (No enough accurated )...So I did it with colorimeter calculation and light meter instead
and got great results...

....Now I could enjoy a very damn good picture with this LCD base projector
it is almost kill my Mits DLP.

So that is it
Tried and played with those setting to get better results...

Best Regards

Stephen
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post #15 of 91 Old 04-03-2008, 02:03 PM
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I have a few questions about setting up my HC720.

I am only using the hdmi connection via a monoprice hdmi switch. I currently have a Verizon HD DVR cable box and HD-A1 HD DVD player connected to the switch. I have both outputting at 1080i. I have another tv connected to the same system via component that can't except a 720p signal. So it is much easier to output everything at 1080i. Plus, I noticed that the picture quality is much better outputting 1080i from the HD-A1.

1. What do I set the output scaling to? When I set it to auto it appears to have about 3% overscan according DVE. Normal appears to be the same. Larger appears to be 0% overscan but I'm not positive.

2. I can't adjust a lot of the menu settings. They are blacked out. Is that because I am using the HDMI connection? The owners manual doesn't specify that but I assume that is the reason. The owner's manual is really lacking.

3. What does Epson Superwhite do?
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post #16 of 91 Old 04-03-2008, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beekermartin View Post

I have a few questions about setting up my HC720.

I am only using the hdmi connection via a monoprice hdmi switch. I currently have a Verizon HD DVR cable box and HD-A1 HD DVD player connected to the switch. I have both outputting at 1080i. I have another tv connected to the same system via component that can't except a 720p signal. So it is much easier to output everything at 1080i. Plus, I noticed that the picture quality is much better outputting 1080i from the HD-A1.

1. What do I set the output scaling to? When I set it to auto it appears to have about 3% overscan according DVE. Normal appears to be the same. Larger appears to be 0% overscan but I'm not positive.

2. I can't adjust a lot of the menu settings. They are blacked out. Is that because I am using the HDMI connection? The owners manual doesn't specify that but I assume that is the reason. The owner's manual is really lacking.

3. What does Epson Superwhite do?


Yes, I did notice that 1080i did a pretty good job and that is happened to my
Mits Dlp also, I don't know why...maybe some forumers could help us on at.

Yes output at larger give you a 0% overscan and an native ratio either, all was verified by my test pattern on VP50.

YES, when use HDMI somes setting are not available at all due to HDMI digital sheme but you could do a lots of tweaking on this mode.

Super white is a system that give you a bright white at 100 IRE and it is also
compensated for overblowned white background....but I found it more easier
to tweak this PJ without this feature with great results.
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post #17 of 91 Old 04-03-2008, 02:56 PM
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Sweet! Merci beaucoup Quebecanada!!! Can't wait to try thoses settings!

Question here : Why can't I get to Sharpness - Advanced?? It's not highlited so I can't select it!
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post #18 of 91 Old 04-03-2008, 03:02 PM
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Thanks for the fast response quebecanada. I am going to try out some of your settings tonight. I am curious to see how they look compared to what I got using DVE HD DVD.

I believe the reason 1080i looks better than 720p from the HD-A1 is because the first generation HD DVD players were known for having poor 720p performance. I remember reading about that in the HD DVD forums. Most people recommended running them at 1080i and letting the display do the scaling.
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post #19 of 91 Old 04-03-2008, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malenurse View Post

Sweet! Merci beaucoup Quebecanada!!! Can't wait to try thoses settings!

Question here : Why can't I get to Sharpness - Advanced?? It's not highlited so I can't select it!


Tried HDMI mode and Theater Black 1 mode, you should have the option
to switch to advanced...
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post #20 of 91 Old 04-03-2008, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beekermartin View Post

Thanks for the fast response quebecanada. I am going to try out some of your settings tonight. I am curious to see how they look compared to what I got using DVE HD DVD.

I believe the reason 1080i looks better than 720p from the HD-A1 is because the first generation HD DVD players were known for having poor 720p performance. I remember reading about that in the HD DVD forums. Most people recommended running them at 1080i and letting the display do the scaling.


Yes that is make sense, I need to tried to feeding a 720P without the VP50
scaler and let the toshiba doing his job and looked at the difference on image quality.
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post #21 of 91 Old 04-03-2008, 04:51 PM
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I'll have to give these settings a shot when I get a chance.
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post #22 of 91 Old 04-03-2008, 07:01 PM
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How did you guys settle on the sharpness settings?

Even using the test patterns on DVE HD DVD I find it hard to tell a difference. I can see that the image does change when I adjust it but I can't tell what looks the "sharpest" without artifacts.

Is there a certain test pattern I should use and if so what part of the image should I pay the most attention to?
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post #23 of 91 Old 04-12-2008, 12:22 PM
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component settings

I am currently using an old ota hd receiver and use the livingroom setting.
I would like some calibrations for component settings for this mode

thanks

John
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post #24 of 91 Old 04-17-2008, 09:27 AM
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Can anybody tell me the difference between using the brightness/contrast or white level/black level settings? The manual states that "you can adjust either one of these settings(but not both) for each image source and color mode." (pg. 35).

On my Avia calibration disc, they state that "brightness" is the same as "black level", and "contrast" is also called "white level".

So why are there options to change both of these settings? Am I missing something?

Thanks,
Nate
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post #25 of 91 Old 04-17-2008, 11:47 AM
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I LOVE the white level/ black level option on this thing vs using standard contrast/ brightness. It makes it real easy to setup. Heres what i do. Get a test image dvd or just any 2.35 dvd and display the credits. Keep clicking the black level down till the movies total black matches the top and bottom total black bars of your screen. You just setup your blacks.

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post #26 of 91 Old 04-17-2008, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightanole View Post

I LOVE the white level/ black level option on this thing vs using standard contrast/ brightness. It makes it real easy to setup. Heres what i do. Get a test image dvd or just any 2.35 dvd and display the credits. Keep clicking the black level down till the movies total black matches the top and bottom total black bars of your screen. You just setup your blacks.

By doing that, you're going to severely crush blacks and shadow detail. Fact is, the 720 just cannot do the kind of black levels some people are expecting.

The best movie scene I found to test both black and shadow detail is Kingdom of Heaven. The scene where Salahadin meets the Leper King. Look at Salahadin's black outfit. There's wrinkles in it. If you crush the blacks, you won't see the wrinkles. The 720 does a nice dark grey. But it can't touch the black levels of Dark Chip2 competitors like the Optoma HD70 for example. It's too bad Epson didn't release a 720UB instead. I think most of us would've paid an extra $100 or so for it.

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post #27 of 91 Old 04-17-2008, 02:55 PM
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I've got to where I really don't even mess with test patterns for black level. I look for a scene where somebody is wearing black clothing or something similar and crank it way up to see the detail, then I crank it down to where it is black as possible without the detail getting crushed.

BTW, I have no idea why they have two sets of black/white level controls. The last selected area is what you end up seeing. i.e. if you set it with black/white, then back out, that is the calibration you will see. Sharpness is the same way. If you last selected Advanced Sharpness, then that is what you will see. If you last entered the standard sharpness area, then that is the calibration you will see. Unfortunately, that is also the way color decoding and grayscale are setup, which means you can only calibrate one and not both.....which makes absolutely no sense.

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post #28 of 91 Old 04-26-2008, 05:21 PM
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Quebecanada - I tried your settings and they look pretty darn good. Definitely a big improvement of my factory Theatre Black 1 settings. The only problem I find with your setting is that the skin tones of Caucasian people are a little off. They seem to appear slightly more tanned than normal. Other than that it looks really good and is a big improvement over how I had it setup. Also keep in mind that I just have a cheap progressive scan SD DVD player hooked up with components. Plus I also have mild color blindness which doesn't help either. Anyways thanks for posting your settings, this was very helpful to me since I have trouble adjusting by eye.
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post #29 of 91 Old 04-27-2008, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixalot30 View Post

Quebecanada - I tried your settings and they look pretty darn good. Definitely a big improvement of my factory Theatre Black 1 settings. The only problem I find with your setting is that the skin tones of Caucasian people are a little off. They seem to appear slightly more tanned than normal. Other than that it looks really good and is a big improvement over how I had it setup. Also keep in mind that I just have a cheap progressive scan SD DVD player hooked up with components. Plus I also have mild color blindness which doesn't help either. Anyways thanks for posting your settings, this was very helpful to me since I have trouble adjusting by eye.


Yes, skin tones color accurancy with this lcd technology PJ is not an easy task
at all. But I tried to bring the color decoder on red near the reference point, but with this PJ I could not adjust the RGBCMY without affecting the greyscale...so that is a trade-off.

Anyway I will post soon a new calibration setting that I did with a Pro
colorimeter that I got from a friend of mine...So stay tune

Regards

Stephan
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post #30 of 91 Old 04-28-2008, 09:50 AM
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I finally have been able to watch a few movies on my 720 and Elite Cinewhite 120" screen.

I watched Bourne Identity and Bourne Supremacy on HD DVD over the last two nights. It looks great but it lacks the punch of my Pioneer Elite Pro-520 RP CRT. The Pioneer has much brighter whites, obviously much better blacks, and the colors are perfect. The Pioneer has been professional calibrated which I am sure has a lot to do with it.

I am now ready to start calibrating the 720. I calibrated the Theater Black 1 mode using HD DVE. I am going to start calibrating the other modes tonight. I was watching a live concert in HD with both the 720 and Pioneer on at the same time. In theather black 1 mode the image was basically dull compared to the Pioneer. When I switched to living room mode it got much brighter but the colors are off.

I am hoping with calibration I can get the brighter modes to look good. I do have a fairly long throw, @18'. I am sure that affects the brightness some.

This is my first front projector. So far I am very impressed. I hope with some calibration I can get it looking relatively close to the Pioneer RP CRT. If not I will keep an eye out for a good deal on a 1080ub. That is the projector I wanted to get but I couldn't justify the price for my first projector.

I will post again after I calibrate the other modes.
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