Linux audio architecture discussion (ALSA, OSS, Pulse, Jack, etc) - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-08-2010, 10:26 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tux99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,523
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Great article, well worth reading:

http://tuxradar.com/content/how-it-w...udio-explained

(but I still don't see the point of Pulseaudio... )

My Linux news / reviews / tips+tricks / downloads web site: http://www.linuxtech.net/
tux99 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 04-09-2010, 12:10 PM
Senior Member
 
darkphoenix22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Gah. PulseAudio, the wrapper that supports only 70% of the ALSA routines and breaks 95% of programs.
darkphoenix22 is offline  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:07 PM
 
mythmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: 255.255.255.255
Posts: 2,142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
We all hate Pulseaudio. Jack is awesome, though!

This is the first that I've heard of FFADO, so I don't know anything about that.

Good find, tux -- thanks for posting it.
mythmaster is offline  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:38 PM
Senior Member
 
darkphoenix22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I need to get around to trying Jack one of these days. Though ALSA is more than enough for I need.
darkphoenix22 is offline  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tux99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,523
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkphoenix22 View Post

I need to get around to trying Jack one of these days. Though ALSA is more than enough for I need.

Jack offers a lot of useful features if you want to produce music / sound, for simple consuming of music / sound ALSA is all that's needed.

My Linux news / reviews / tips+tricks / downloads web site: http://www.linuxtech.net/
tux99 is offline  
Old 04-09-2010, 02:10 PM
 
mythmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: 255.255.255.255
Posts: 2,142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Jack is the bomb. I don't know of any media player that doesn't support it. Also, there's a standalone version of Project M for Jack.

Jack is the preferred weapon of choice when using a low-latency kernel: http://www.alsa-project.org/main/ind..._latency_howto

You should definitely try it out, darkphoenix, and even consider making it default in InfinityOS.
mythmaster is offline  
Old 04-09-2010, 05:11 PM
Senior Member
 
darkphoenix22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hmm. Well I'll definitely keep it as an option, unlike PulseAudio which I'm attempting to completely purge from my packages as it seems to like to sneak back on like a virus.

I'm not sure if I'll make it default though as I've read that it is a little power hungry compared to virgin ALSA. Many of my users will not likely need all of its features. It seems like a great professional audio API though. Definitely competitive with CoreAudio.
darkphoenix22 is offline  
Old 04-09-2010, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tux99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,523
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkphoenix22 View Post

I'm not sure if I'll make it default though as I've read that it is a little power hungry compared to virgin ALSA. Many of my users will not likely need all of its features. It seems like a great professional audio API though. Definitely competitive with CoreAudio.

Like I said in my previous post JACK is very useful on a PC used for audio editing and production (using software like Rosegarden, Ardour, etc) but I wouldn't recommend it for a HTPC or media player distro, it's unnecessary.
Keep it simple and just use ALSA directly!

My Linux news / reviews / tips+tricks / downloads web site: http://www.linuxtech.net/
tux99 is offline  
Old 04-09-2010, 07:21 PM
Senior Member
 
darkphoenix22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Less is definitely more in this case.
darkphoenix22 is offline  
Old 04-09-2010, 07:31 PM
 
mythmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: 255.255.255.255
Posts: 2,142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Yeah, JACK is overkill for HTPC unless you want to use the standalone of ProjecM.
mythmaster is offline  
Old 04-16-2010, 06:30 AM
Advanced Member
 
bac522's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 906
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

Keep it simple and just use ALSA directly!

Yeah...I agree with that, can't for the life of me figure out what the deal is with pulseaudio...I've yet to see one person actually say the like it.
bac522 is online now  
Old 06-03-2010, 03:43 PM
Senior Member
 
darkphoenix22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I think Valve should wait a year before porting Steam. The multimedia and audio frameworks and APIs on Linux are currently a mess. The APIs and frameworks need to be stablized before any sort of large scale professional game development can begin on Linux.

http://braid-game.com/news/?p=364

If Value ports Steam to Linux in its current state, I'm afraid it will become unprofitable and they'll quickly abandon it. If that happened, there would be virtually no professional Linux games for years.

We need to be ready and sadly we are not.
darkphoenix22 is offline  
Old 06-03-2010, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tux99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,523
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkphoenix22 View Post

I think Valve should wait a year before porting Steam. The multimedia and audio frameworks and APIs on Linux are currently a mess. The APIs and frameworks need to be stablized before any sort of large scale professional game development can begin on Linux.

I don't agree, good games where ported to Linux more than 10 years ago already (when you were probably still in primary scool ), the libraries and API are always in an evolving state on Linux and that will likely never change, it's part of the nature of open-source, but that doesn't mean it's not possible to port games to Linux.

My Linux news / reviews / tips+tricks / downloads web site: http://www.linuxtech.net/
tux99 is offline  
Old 06-03-2010, 05:15 PM
Senior Member
 
darkphoenix22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I tested around 20 games and emulators on Ubuntu. Although, some of them worked (they sometimes needed a bit of configuration), most required you to remove PulseAudio. Many games using the Allegro framework with SDL also required me to tell SDL to use OSS.

Most of these problems are all audio related. And most of the audio issues are caused by PulseAudio.

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ub...ay/011343.html

PulseAudio sacrifices latency for power consumption. High latency, low power consumption. The power saving is also why your computer makes those clicking noises when running Ubuntu. That's PulseAudio shutting off your audio chip.

I'm not sure how beneficial low power consumption from your sound chip is to battery life anyways. It's your CPU, GPU, WiFi, Bluetooth, and LCD panel that take up all the power. Not really sound.

Note: My tests were done with the latest ALSA drivers IIRC.

-----

PulseAudio also only supports around 70% of the ALSA routines. libsyndey was supposed to come along and allow it to support the other 30%. libsydney stalled and has been virtually abandoned. ALSA is simply too complicated to be effectively used with a wrapper.

http://lwn.net/Articles/299211/

Note: The above link is also a bit old, but many of the issues it touches on still apply today.
darkphoenix22 is offline  
Old 06-04-2010, 05:50 PM
Rgb
AVS Special Member
 
Rgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 6,893
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkphoenix22 View Post

I tested around 20 games and emulators on Ubuntu. Although, some of them worked (they sometimes needed a bit of configuration), most required you to remove PulseAudio. Many games using the Allegro framework with SDL also required me to tell SDL to use OSS.

Most of these problems are all audio related. And most of the audio issues are caused by PulseAudio.

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ub...ay/011343.html

PulseAudio sacrifices latency for power consumption. High latency, low power consumption. The power saving is also why your computer makes those clicking noises when running Ubuntu. That's PulseAudio shutting off your audio chip.

I'm not sure how beneficial low power consumption from your sound chip is to battery life anyways. It's your CPU, GPU, WiFi, Bluetooth, and LCD panel that take up all the power. Not really sound.

Note: My tests were done with the latest ALSA drivers IIRC.

-----

PulseAudio also only supports around 70% of the ALSA routines. libsyndey was supposed to come along and allow it to support the other 30%. libsydney stalled and has been virtually abandoned. ALSA is simply too complicated to be effectively used with a wrapper.

http://lwn.net/Articles/299211/

Note: The above link is also a bit old, but many of the issues it touches on still apply today.

Remove Pulseaudio with just two lines- problem solved:

http://art.ubuntuforums.org/showpost...&postcount=134

Quote:


sudo apt-get purge libcanberra-pulse pulseaudio pulseaudio-esound-compat pulseaudio-module-bluetooth pulseaudio-module-gconf pulseaudio-module-udev pulseaudio-module-x11 gstreamer0.10-pulseaudio pulseaudio-utils pavucontrol

sudo apt-get install gnome-alsamixer alsa-oss python-alsaaudio

Rgb is offline  
Old 06-04-2010, 08:57 PM
Senior Member
 
darkphoenix22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Unfortunately, game developers are not going to want to tell their users to reconfigure their entire sound system to run their games.

Linux needs a stupid simple audio API that supports audio mixing, per-application volume controls, and existing applications. OSS4 seems to be the only API capable of all of this. Futhermore, development on vanilla ALSA has all but ceased as the developers have decided to focus solely on adding features to PulseAudio. I'm afraid ALSA is a dead end at this point as really only the driver portion is being maintained.

I'm looking at making ALSA/OSSv4 an install time choice or having two separate ISOs. OSSv4 isn't quite ready yet, mostly because of the mixer GUI and the need to update the drivers. There's also a nasty limitation in that it currently doesn't support suspend/resume, which would definitely need to be fixed before it is made default in any distribution. http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/...nd_Hibernation

All in all, though, I think it would take a lot less work to fix up OSSv4 than it would take to fix ALSA/PulseAudio.

A good first step would be for distros to push OSSv4 to their repositories and begin testing. Arch and Debian already have it, but I don't believe Gentoo does. OSSv4 needs to be throughly tested before it can be adopted. We don't want another PulseAudio situation.
darkphoenix22 is offline  
Old 06-04-2010, 09:31 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tux99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,523
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkphoenix22 View Post

Linux needs a stupid simple audio API that supports audio mixing, per-application volume controls, and existing applications.

ALSA supports software audio mixing. It doesn't support per-application volume controls, but that's hardly a important feature, personally I have never felt any need for it.

ALSA is very mature there is no reason to constantly add new features to software, I'm glad the devs are only focussing on driver development as that's ALSA purpose and has always been.

Furthermore ALSA is perfectly usable without Pulseaudio, I have always used it like that and never found any reason to change that.

I remember I read once that OSS4 completely lacks MIDI support (dunno if that has changed in the meantime), which would be a severe limitation, at least for any serious music production use.

Don't confuse the problems of Pulseaudio with ALSA, just because Pulseaudio is rubbish and should be removed, that doesn't mean ALSA needs replacing too.

My Linux news / reviews / tips+tricks / downloads web site: http://www.linuxtech.net/
tux99 is offline  
Old 06-04-2010, 09:49 PM
Senior Member
 
darkphoenix22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Unfortunately, ALSA and PulseAudio are made by the same developers. We are not going to get active development on one without the other.

ALSA is a dead end as its developers believe the solution to Linux audio is high-level and high-latency abstraction.
darkphoenix22 is offline  
Old 06-04-2010, 11:16 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tux99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,523
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkphoenix22 View Post

Unfortunately, ALSA and PulseAudio are made by the same developers.

Huh? Where did you get that from?

Alsa Core Team:

Jaroslav Kysela
general hacker, founder of the ALSA project
full-time work allowed through [Red Hat, Inc.] - part of team for 'Kernel drivers'

Takashi Iwai
general hacker
full-time work allowed through [Novell, Inc.] - part of SUSE Labs

Clemens Ladisch
general hacker
occasional work in his spare time

James Courtier-Dutton
Sound Blaster drivers, occassional hacker

Liam Girdwood
ASoC hacker and founder
Independent contractor - part-time work allowed through [SlimLogic, Ltd] - part of SlimLogic Labs.

Mark Brown
ASoC hacker
full-time work allowed through [Wolfson Microelectronics, PLC.] - part of Wolfson Applications

http://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Alsa_Team


Pulseaudio developers:

Lennart Poettering, Pierre Ossman, Shahms E. King, Tanu Kaskinen, Colin Guthrie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PulseAudio


Just to say it again:

ALSA is not the problem, Pulseaudio is, and Pulseaudio and ALSA have nothing to do with each other.
ALSA is fully featured, mature, stable and proven, it doesn't need any further development other than general maintenance and adding support for new sound hardware, which is well taken care of.

My Linux news / reviews / tips+tricks / downloads web site: http://www.linuxtech.net/
tux99 is offline  
Old 06-05-2010, 08:27 AM
Senior Member
 
darkphoenix22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Many of the contributors are the same, especially the ones employed by the various distributions.

In any case, ALSA is way too complicated to be properly wrapped and extended. This is why PulseAudio was created in the first place.

OSSv4 is a much simpler API and would be much easier to extend and maintain. We wouldn't have to resort to high-level abstraction to add the features that users want. In any case, I believe OSSv4 needs a bit of work to add a few features needed by general users, such as the suspend/resume and hardware MIDI.

I believe OSSv4, with a bit of work, would be a much more soild foundation for Linux audio. However, until it is ready, it should be a choice not a default.
darkphoenix22 is offline  
Old 06-05-2010, 10:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
waterhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,280
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Can't JACK be used for the audio? It can co-exist with pulse and alsa. I have a DAW (Digital Audio Workstation), made up of Fedora 12 and the PlanetCCRMA DAW files. They have JACK configured to disable pulse every time JACK wants to use the sound card.

Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JACK_Audio_Connection_Kit

http://jackaudio.org/

http://ccrma.stanford.edu/planetccrma/software/
waterhead is online now  
Old 06-05-2010, 11:04 AM
Senior Member
 
darkphoenix22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
JACK is nice. It would be best, though, to have a simple low level sound API that could easily be expanded on without the problems of PulseAudio/ALSA.

This would also make the jobs of the people maintaining JACK, SDL, and OpenAL much easier.
darkphoenix22 is offline  
Old 06-05-2010, 12:07 PM
Senior Member
 
darkphoenix22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

ALSA is not the problem, Pulseaudio is, and Pulseaudio and ALSA have nothing to do with each other.
ALSA is fully featured, mature, stable and proven, it doesn't need any further development other than general maintenance and adding support for new sound hardware, which is well taken care of.

The problem with ALSA isn't that it doesn't work. It is whether it will work in the future and whether it will be able to meet the needs and wants of devs and users. Users want per-application volume controls and devs want a simple audio API that will make their life easy, rather than having to deal with 15 different wrappers. Abstraction is not a solution to ALSA's problems. As you can see with PulseAudio, abstraction only exacerbates ALSA's flaws, namely it's complexity, while adding even more problems like high-latency. ALSA is an adequate solution presently but I don't think that will hold, even in the near future.

It comes down to this. ALSA can not be easily expanded. OSSv4 likely can be.
darkphoenix22 is offline  
Old 06-05-2010, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tux99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,523
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkphoenix22 View Post

The problem with ALSA isn't that it doesn't work.

Saying that ALSA doesn't work is nonsense, in fact ALSA was a major step forward when it replaced OSS. It works perfectly fine for the wast majority of people, both users and developers.
In fact Linux Audio was horrible when OSS was still the official kernel sound driver and it's gotten bad again since Pulseaudio was included as standard in most distros.
The problem is Pulseaudio not ALSA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkphoenix22 View Post

Users want per-application volume controls and devs want a simple audio API that will make their life easy, rather than having to deal with 15 different wrappers.

Most users don't care at all about per-application volume controls, that's a feature that's still looking for an almost non-existent demand.
Devs have no problems with ALSA and the choice of libs, just look at the hundreds (or more likely thousands) of great Linux audio apps available.
Some newbie-devs might have problems since they haven't learnt how to use the existing APIs, but don't confuse lack of experience with API problems.
If anything there is a lack of good documentation for ALSA, so if you want to do something useful, that's what you could use your energy for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkphoenix22 View Post

OSSv4 likely can be.

If you had personally experienced the history of Linux audio (especially the tortuous history of OSS) then you wouldn't be saying that.
OSS is a one man project, there is no way it will ever be integrated into the kernel again. You are wasting your energies fighting for that.
If you want to fight something useful then fight against Pulseaudio or even better, write some good ALSA documentation.

Edit to add:
this blog post from Hannu (the OSS author) says it all:
http://4front-tech.com/hannublog/?m=200908

Quote:


However there are few things that need to be done before this could be possible:

* Better integration with the Linux kernel. Currently OSS doesn’t follow the design practices used by the rest of the Linux kernel.
* Power management. For the time being power management is missing from OSS.
* The audio core framework requires some rewriting. The current core is 10 years old and the recent additions like vmix don’t fit properly in it.
* Some key drivers such as USB audio, HDaudio and SB X-Fi require rewriting.

In addition the following enhancements or features have been suggested:

* MIDI support. For the time being MIDI support is under construction. I have started to suspect that there is still too much “reinventing wheel” problems in the current approach. The best approach might actually be doing all timing in user space. This needs more discussion.

Getting all this done requires some funding. However this is really peanuts. All that is required is salary of a SR software developer for 2 to 3 years. In addition some kind of HW level debugging environment is required. This means roughly an invenstment of 100k to 200k euros.

In other words OSS needs a major rewrite to be in any way up to scratch for serious use and the author of OSS (Hannu) wants a full time salary to do that. Maybe you could pay him?

My Linux news / reviews / tips+tricks / downloads web site: http://www.linuxtech.net/
tux99 is offline  
Old 06-05-2010, 01:30 PM
Senior Member
 
darkphoenix22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

Saying that ALSA doesn't work is nonsense, in fact ALSA was a major step forward when it replaced OSS. It works perfectly fine for the wast majority of people, both users and developers.
In fact Linux Audio was horrible when OSS was still the official kernel sound driver and it's gotten bad again since Pulseaudio was included as standard in most distros.
The problem is Pulseaudio not ALSA.

Well, in the short term, PulseAudio does need to be abandoned as it has never achieved its original goals and likely never will.

But its functionality needs to be replaced somehow. This would not be possible with ALSA unless we made another wrapper, which would have many of the same unavoidable problems as PulseAudio.

The problem isn't that ALSA doesn't work. The problem is ALSA is too damn complicated to be usefully expanded while keeping API stability. This is why PulseAudio was created in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

Most users don't care at all about per-application volume controls, that's a feature that's still looking for an almost non-existent demand.
Devs have no problems with ALSA and the choice of libs, just look at the hundreds (or more likely thousands) of great Linux audio apps available.
Some newbie-devs might have problems since they haven't learnt how to use the existing APIs, but don't confuse lack of experience with API problems.
If anything there is a lack of good documentation for ALSA, so if you want to do something useful, that's what you could use your energy for.

What I'm proposing is actually what game devs (I have talked to a few) want. They are tired of having to test for all the wrappers. They want a simple API that stays out of their way and just works and not have to worry if the billion bindings for libraries like SDL and OpenAL work with their code.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

If you had personally experienced the history of Linux audio (especially the tortuous history of OSS) then you wouldn't be saying that.
OSS is a one man project, there is no way it will ever be integrated into the kernel again. You are wasting your energies fighting for that.
If you want to fight something useful then fight against Pulseaudio or even better, write some good ALSA documentation.

If that happened, the solution would be a fork. OSSv4 is now licensed under the GPL so a fork would always be possible. We just need to keep 4Front on their toes about putting all of their work under the GPL (in addition to any other licenses) if they wish for OSSv4 to be adopted.

It worked well enough for X.org Server when it was forked from Xfree86. The same could be done for OSSv4 if the issue ever arises.

It's time we stopped letting politics decide the course of Linux development. Politics makes bad decisions and writes bad code.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

In other words OSS needs a major rewrite to be in any way up to scratch for serious use and the author of OSS (Hannu) wants a full time salary to do that. Maybe you could pay him?

I probably will once I get some funding, if no one else choses to do so. I want game development on Linux and I think the main roadblock right now is the complicated mess of a sound system. I feel that an "investment of 100k to 200k euros" *is* peanuts compared to the work it would take to make ALSA properly simple and extensible.
darkphoenix22 is offline  
Old 06-05-2010, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tux99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,523
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkphoenix22 View Post

I probably will once I get some funding, if no one else choses to do so. I want game development on Linux and I think the main roadblock right now is the complicated mess of a sound system. I feel that an "investment of 100k to 200k euros" *is* peanuts compared to the work it would take to make ALSA properly simple and extensible.

Well then good luck to you, you will really need it, fighting windmills is hard!

My Linux news / reviews / tips+tricks / downloads web site: http://www.linuxtech.net/
tux99 is offline  
Old 06-05-2010, 01:38 PM
Senior Member
 
darkphoenix22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

Well then good luck to you, you will really need it, fighting windmills is hard!

But it can be fun!
darkphoenix22 is offline  
Old 06-05-2010, 02:34 PM
Senior Member
 
darkphoenix22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Summary of my POV:

- Short-term: Abandon PulseAudio

Why?

If a game uses sound for timing, it's toast with PulseAudio due to the higher latency. Unfortunately, this is the way many games are written. This barrier makes it much harder to port games over to Linux. Almost all the ports I tried in my testing do not work under PulseAudio or, at the very least, required a bit of configuration. These same games/programs work out of the box on Windows.

- Long-term: Look at OSSv4 as a possible replacement for ALSA

Why?

PulseAudio's functionality needs to be replaced somehow. This would not be possible with ALSA unless we made another wrapper, which would have many of the same unavoidable problems as PulseAudio.

The problem isn't that ALSA doesn't work. The problem is ALSA is too damn complicated to be usefully expanded while keeping API stability. This is why PulseAudio was created in the first place.
darkphoenix22 is offline  
Old 06-08-2010, 07:45 AM
Rgb
AVS Special Member
 
Rgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 6,893
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Thread to discuss the Linux audio architecture- API's, drivers, apps, frameworks, etc. Let out all your angst re: ALSA, Pulseaudio, OSS, Jack, etc here!

Relevant posts from

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1249195

will be moved here.

Yes, we all need to be better at staying on topic and/or forking new threads as the need arises
Rgb is offline  
Old 06-08-2010, 08:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
newlinux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Parts unknown
Posts: 1,593
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 16
I don't know anything about linux audio architecture other than I wish it worked better . Why do we have all these layers and different systems (Pulse, OSS, ALSA)? Just as I was getting to understand ALSA Pulse came along and ruined my world . I guess I need to read up on these a bit more.
newlinux is offline  
 
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off