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post #1 of 18 Old 11-23-2012, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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help me not use windows on my build smile.gif

First, help me make sense of this information (as i want to start using the open source driver, and only use the proprietary as last resort --as i have too many traumas over the years with it. Nividia and ATI, i hope you both die painful deaths.)

http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/VideoDecoding

So, i have some options for the video card:
1) i3's HD4000 (will have to buy a new setup, and i'm almost going that route for power saving alone)
2) P4 (power hungry) + gforce 7300GT (the one i'm trying the reuse)
3) something that i can put on the PCIe that costs less than $100


for #1, i can't even find HD4000 on that list...
for #2, the chipset is NV4B (G73)
So i would have video acc for VPE and VP1
now off to find what those things means
on the bottom of that page there's a table saying those two letters would support subsets of MPEG1 and 2.
for #3, I could get any nvidia fermi board for $50 and i would have support for VP3/VP4/VP5
again to the table on the bottom, that would give me full support for "MPEG1,2,MPEG 4 Advanced Simple Profile without GMC,H.264 High Profile,VC-1"

I can't make much of an informed decision here... i obviously have support for the HD4000 but i can't find it on the table. i have no idea what those supports mean in real life... would that means i would have acceleration if viewing a video on VLC right away? do i have to do something special? would it only kick in in certain cases? what does the video encoding format in the file have to do with the video that X is sending to the card??!?! this is what makes me most clueless. i'm pretty sure in every setup i've used i can decode and re-encode in another format and read and write all that to the HD faster than my video card can display it on the monitor! so i'm pretty sure that table means nothing to the problem at hand. or did i simply never enabled video acceleration in all my life?

The only thing i know is that every damn time i tried to view video (even low res) on my 1600x1000 monitor (even using a small window on the corner or full screen) i get scan lines on ALL action scenes. I can really only watch cartoons without going bat **** crazy on the scan lines. it happens on CRT and on my 2ms LCD.
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post #2 of 18 Old 11-24-2012, 09:19 AM
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First, you have a misconception.The nouveau is an open-source driver for nVidia based graphics. There is no one in these forums that would recommend using it instead of the driver that nVidia releases for Linux. The nVidia Linux driver is great, and I wouldn't be able to use Linux as I do without it.

The Intel HD graphics do not make use of any nouveau or nVidia driver, as it has it's own driver. Also, deinterlacing is not available for the Intel HD graphics, so if you want to watch broadcast-type mpeg2 files, it isn't an option. I also would not waste any money on an AMD radeon card. Their Linux drivers (both proprietary & open-source) do not provide the video acceleration usually needed for mpeg2. If you are only go going to play h264/mpeg4 files, then that is a different subject altogether.

Many in these forums have the nVidia GT430 cards, which work quite well for all types of file types. But, they are not the most current, as nVidia has now released the 600 series of chips. I do not know anything about these cards, except they are considered a good thing for the emerging Linux gaming scene. They also are pretty expensive, but I do see some in the $100 range.
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post #3 of 18 Old 11-24-2012, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I now literately slapped my forehead when i saw that i was putting the HD4000 on the same boat as nvidia... (when i mentioned nouveau above, read it "open source intel drivers", i915 i think)

but I'm still not understanding how the video card affect anything with the file format itself.

What difference does it make if VLC is playing a MPG? a DVD? or if I have a program that just paint the screen a random color each frame? ...on all those cases i can see what i called the 'scan line' going down the screen.


You mention deinterlacing... even though i don't think it's the case of what I see on my case (with all type of video cards under linux, even using the proprietary driver), wouldn't VLC do the de-interlacing just fine? not that I have a single interlaced file to even test with...

What i see is more like the video refresh rate not keeping up at scenes where much pixels change from one frame to another. The 'scan line' i mention is just one line were you can see the video drawing not keeping up with the next frame. or something like that.
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post #4 of 18 Old 11-24-2012, 01:27 PM
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Your quickest and easiest option is to just go out and get a mid-range GeForce 600 series card with the latest Nvidia video decoding hardware. Otherwise, you should simply wait a few months for Intel's Haswell to launch. A quad-core Haswell system will be all you need for video playback on Linux as Intel has been working like mad to get Haswell video drivers up to snuff and they are enabling all sorts of wonderful video decoding and encoding features built into the new GPU.
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post #5 of 18 Old 11-24-2012, 06:38 PM
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Deinterlacing is not done by default. Each video player has to be told to deinterlace, and also what type of deinterlacing to do.

Picture quality could depend on a number of factors. What type of connection (VGA, DVI, HDMI) and what type of display (CRT or LCD)?
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post #6 of 18 Old 11-25-2012, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waterhead View Post

Deinterlacing is not done by default. Each video player has to be told to deinterlace, and also what type of deinterlacing to do.
Picture quality could depend on a number of factors. What type of connection (VGA, DVI, HDMI) and what type of display (CRT or LCD)?

happens with either CRT and the 2ms LCD i have. i'm using DVI

I don't have any interlaced video format... so i don't think this is an issue. it's video lag i think
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post #7 of 18 Old 11-25-2012, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post

Your quickest and easiest option is to just go out and get a mid-range GeForce 600 series card with the latest Nvidia video decoding hardware. Otherwise, you should simply wait a few months for Intel's Haswell to launch. A quad-core Haswell system will be all you need for video playback on Linux as Intel has been working like mad to get Haswell video drivers up to snuff and they are enabling all sorts of wonderful video decoding and encoding features built into the new GPU.

interesting, they are claiming 100% improvement over the HD4000, which is already decent.

But then again, my question: what role does the video card video decoders exactly play when playing video?

vlc can read from the HD, decode MPG-2, re-encode MPG-2, write to the HD... faster than it can: read from the HD, decode MPG-2, dump to the monitor. why is that?


PS: I know my system is lame. i'm trying to understand what i should improve. i don't want to buy a $300 video card and still have the same issues. as the saying goes, never optimize without measurements.
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post #8 of 18 Old 11-25-2012, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gcbavs View Post

interesting, they are claiming 100% improvement over the HD4000, which is already decent..
There you go again, comparing Intel graphics to nVidia.
Quote:
But then again, my question: what role does the video card video decoders exactly play when playing video?
vlc can read from the HD, decode MPG-2, re-encode MPG-2, write to the HD... faster than it can: read from the HD, decode MPG-2, dump to the monitor. why is that?
PS: I know my system is lame. i'm trying to understand what i should improve. i don't want to buy a $300 video card and still have the same issues. as the saying goes, never optimize without measurements.
A good video card with a good driver will give you decent hardware video acceleration. If the GPU can't do it, then the CPU has to do it. If you don't have a big CPU, then you get problems.
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post #9 of 18 Old 11-25-2012, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by gcbavs View Post

happens with either CRT and the 2ms LCD i have. i'm using DVI
I don't have any interlaced video format... so i don't think this is an issue. it's video lag i think
In another thread you asked about an ATSC tuner card. That will give you interlaced video. And I believe standard DVDs are also interlaced.
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post #10 of 18 Old 11-26-2012, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gcbavs View Post

interesting, they are claiming 100% improvement over the HD4000, which is already decent.
But then again, my question: what role does the video card video decoders exactly play when playing video?
vlc can read from the HD, decode MPG-2, re-encode MPG-2, write to the HD... faster than it can: read from the HD, decode MPG-2, dump to the monitor. why is that?
PS: I know my system is lame. i'm trying to understand what i should improve. i don't want to buy a $300 video card and still have the same issues. as the saying goes, never optimize without measurements.


It varies with the card. The latest generation of GPU has ASIC (That means dedicated hardware) video decoding built into the chip for decoding all video except MPEG-1. From what I know, current drivers don't have access to those video hardware decoders or they don't access the full feature-set yet because it requires significant driver and software changes. Even though the code is out there for Intel QuickSync video decoding, nobody has activated it in drivers on the Linux side though that will change once Haswell is released. The easiest and best option for you to choose - assuming you have the funds to do so - is to just wait a few months and build a new quad-core Haswell system or get a quad-core Ivy Bridge system now. Intel is enabling a lot of Ivy Bridge video features through the Haswell code updates so when Haswell releases, Ivy Bridge will be a lot better on Linux as well. From what little you have told us, your system appears to be an old P4 with a GeForce 7300 GT (probably AGP) and not a lot of RAM. Assuming that is the case, you are better off simply getting a new system and not bothering with any upgrades or recycling because that hardware will not run Linux well enough to do today's tasks with an acceptable level of performance.
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post #11 of 18 Old 11-26-2012, 11:33 AM
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What distribution are you using??

I'm running into exactly what you're talking about with current releases of Ubuntu, Xubuntu with MythTV, and Mythbuntu to be exact (12.xx releases). Where I've never had a problem with a Nvidia card before, using VDPAU acceleration, I'm now getting the same line you're talking about.

This is with a GT440 card, a decent midrange card. For giggles, I threw in an ATI 6450 card, loaded the drivers, and applied the Intel acceleration (ia965???, and yes it works), and the line was much less prevalent. I moved to Nvidia because ATI always had that line.

So, I was a bit perturbed. I'm having other issues as well with the current Ubuntu family releases. That's another thread though.
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post #12 of 18 Old 12-01-2012, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by waterhead View Post

In another thread you asked about an ATSC tuner card. That will give you interlaced video. And I believe standard DVDs are also interlaced.

That's good to know! have zero experience with tuner cards. btw, i will probably get a hauppage one...
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterhead View Post

There you go again, comparing Intel graphics to nVidia.
A good video card with a good driver will give you decent hardware video acceleration. If the GPU can't do it, then the CPU has to do it. If you don't have a big CPU, then you get problems.

this time i was comenting on Intel's Haswell announcement smile.gif so it's intel vs intel.
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post #13 of 18 Old 12-01-2012, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post

It varies with the card. The latest generation of GPU has ASIC (That means dedicated hardware) video decoding built into the chip for decoding all video except MPEG-1. From what I know, current drivers don't have access to those video hardware decoders or they don't access the full feature-set yet because it requires significant driver and software changes. Even though the code is out there for Intel QuickSync video decoding, nobody has activated it in drivers on the Linux side though that will change once Haswell is released. The easiest and best option for you to choose - assuming you have the funds to do so - is to just wait a few months and build a new quad-core Haswell system or get a quad-core Ivy Bridge system now. Intel is enabling a lot of Ivy Bridge video features through the Haswell code updates so when Haswell releases, Ivy Bridge will be a lot better on Linux as well. From what little you have told us, your system appears to be an old P4 with a GeForce 7300 GT (probably AGP) and not a lot of RAM. Assuming that is the case, you are better off simply getting a new system and not bothering with any upgrades or recycling because that hardware will not run Linux well enough to do today's tasks with an acceptable level of performance.

you are correct, i was thinking of reusing my P4 with the agp geforce. I used to use it to watch videos (with a 30m HDMI cable smile.gif before, so i don't think it will be that bad... I will probably try linux, and not even bother with video drivers... if the CPU is not up to speed for that, i may try windows, if that also fails, i will focus on your suggestion and go with a haswell+the cheapeast mobo that has HDMI out+no video card.

Quote:
Originally Posted by minivanman View Post

What distribution are you using??
I'm running into exactly what you're talking about with current releases of Ubuntu, Xubuntu with MythTV, and Mythbuntu to be exact (12.xx releases). Where I've never had a problem with a Nvidia card before, using VDPAU acceleration, I'm now getting the same line you're talking about.
This is with a GT440 card, a decent midrange card. For giggles, I threw in an ATI 6450 card, loaded the drivers, and applied the Intel acceleration (ia965???, and yes it works), and the line was much less prevalent. I moved to Nvidia because ATI always had that line.
So, I was a bit perturbed. I'm having other issues as well with the current Ubuntu family releases. That's another thread though.

that's interesting. how were you using the VDPAU accel before? which card/driver? I'm now testing it all up with kanotix, but was using debian 6 and ubuntu 12, and once gentoo. all gave me the line. debian i used with and without the proprietary drivers. same thing always.

i'm always testing with VLC, don't know if that makes a difference. or if i have to set it up somehow to use better video...

i think in the end of everything it may be something with the monitor refresh after all. i'm now testing on a ivy bridge i5k at 4ghz and cpu usage is almost nil. playing a fullhd sample trailer i still get the damn lines on the action scenes. i don't think trhowing more power (cpu or GPU video accl) will help at all.
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post #14 of 18 Old 12-01-2012, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by gcbavs View Post

I will probably try linux, and not even bother with video drivers...
Don't waste your time. Without installing drivers you will only get basic video. You need to install drivers in Windows, even if Windows installs them without your knowledge, so why the resistance to installing them in Linux?
Quote:
how were you using the VDPAU accel before? which card/driver? I'm now testing it all up with kanotix, but was using debian 6 and ubuntu 12, and once gentoo. all gave me the line. debian i used with and without the proprietary drivers. same thing always.
i'm always testing with VLC, don't know if that makes a difference. or if i have to set it up somehow to use better video...
i think in the end of everything it may be something with the monitor refresh after all. i'm now testing on a ivy bridge i5k at 4ghz and cpu usage is almost nil. playing a fullhd sample trailer i still get the damn lines on the action scenes. i don't think trhowing more power (cpu or GPU video accl) will help at all.
I've told you before, the media players don't use vdpau as default. You have to tell it to use it, or even set up a config file telling it to use it all the time. AND, you have to do this for each different media player you use. Most experienced Linux users use mplayer, and a GUI front end like SMplayer. You can play a video directly from the terminal, and tell it to use vdpau:
Code:
mplayer -vo vdpau -vc ffh264vdpau,ffmpeg12vdpau,ffwmv3vdpau,ffvc1vdpau  file.mp4
You can put the defaults in a config file. Here is a How-To for Arch Linux, but it is the same for all Linux distros:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/MPlayer
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post #15 of 18 Old 12-01-2012, 10:51 PM - Thread Starter
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ok, finally got everything to boot and did some tests. I used knotix, a knoppix/debian6 distro that can easily load the nvidia/ati drivers (from 4 months ago, but for my board i think that's fine). all tests done on 1280×720 60hz.

- test #1, OSS drivers, VGA out
it plays fine. I tested a 720p 30fps trailer and also tried to play the new bond movie trailer via firefox mplayer(?) plug-in from youtube
everything played nicely, but color was not the best, blacks were not as deep as the TV is capable.... nothing that i couldn't 'get close' with some adjustments on the TV. it's probably the TV fault to begin with as the color signal should be the same, right?

- test #2, OSS drivers, HDMI out
i can see the dammed scan lines on all action scenes playing the video on 420p, on 720p there are video hickups as well. i can't explain why. cpu usage is LOWER than test #1. color is fine. deep blacks.

- test #3, Nvidia drivers, VGA out
same as test #1, less cpu usage before getting to full screen video, same when full screen video.

- test #4, Nvidia drivers, HDMI out
same as test #2, just slightly better, even less cpu usage, but same crappy video out.

- test #5, nvidia drivers, vdpau
hehe, i tried. but of course, my card is too old/unsupported for this. mplayer tried to valiantly play even without a video out device. reminded of strong bad's Li'l Brudder smile.gif http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail109.html


So, my conclusion is that decoding and all is fine... I've just been getting s***** video out because probably the hardware on that ASUS video card is bogus.

Same output on the VGA port is like butter. switch to the DVI or HDMI port and i get all short of issues.... i've been using this board on my main computer since what... 2005? even though i used it mostly via the VGA out on my 24" sgi crt... i mostly used the DVI out on my flat panels thinking it would be better... what a sucker I am.

Now, you guys taught me a lot here, even with me reading this all half-awake most of the time, and i will try to absorb all that and make more educated questions (or hopefully progress reports) soon. For now i think that brute-force-decoding on software with the poor P4 will be OK for 720p, and hopefully i can get the hauppage cards to already give the channels in 720p instead of 1080i... as i will probably wait to buy more gear after intel at least anounces the integrated GPU plans for Haswell ... but that's a problem for another time. Thanks again guys!
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post #16 of 18 Old 12-02-2012, 04:44 AM
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OK, so your card can't do vdpau. But, we were using nVidia cards to watch HDTV way before vdpau was introduced. We used something called XvMC (X Video Motion Compensation). Your card should be able to do this, and in fact Intel should be able to do it with the latest drivers. Here's a few things to read about it:

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/XvMC

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/XvMC

The last time I tried XvMC on an Intel video chip it didn't work. According to this blog it is now fixed:

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTE5NTY

I believe you said you have an AGP card, so you will want to follow this: On the MythTV XvMC wiki page, under the Configuring xorg.conf for nVidia section it says to do this:
Quote:
Note that since driver version 100.14.11 there is a bug for users of AGP cards in the nvidia driver that requires the NVAGP option set to 0 (turning off agpgart support).

I don't know if this bug still exists, but since they haven't made AGP cards for a while, I doubt that there was much demand to fix this bug.
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post #17 of 18 Old 12-04-2012, 08:21 AM
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Guys, is it possible that this "scan line problem" the OP keeps having is actually a tearing problem? I know I have had problems with tearing even when using Nvidia drivers and no window manager (running MythTV fullscreen). I know there are various ways to work around tearing problems, but other than disabling compositing on the Nvidia drivers, I'm not too familiar with any others. Perhaps someone else knows what to do about tearing on older hardware.

Matt
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post #18 of 18 Old 12-04-2012, 10:38 PM
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If it is tearing this page helped me out back in the day

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Frame_display_timing

Also in the past vsync options in nvidia have helped too.
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