Linux migration for Windows XP refugees 101 - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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Old 06-20-2014, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bobafetthotmail View Post
The only retarded choice of OEMs that time was placing 1GB SO-DIMM to save 12$ instead of a 2GB one.
Once you do that, Win7 runs well (even Aero and stuff in my tests) on netbooks.

In my shop the consensus is trying to sell these people an Android mediabox instead.
Because on average they "know" Android already (on their phone usually).

It's working decently so far.
Netbooks got a deserved bad rap because nearly all of them were vastly underpowered re: CPU and/or RAM/GPU. ALL single core netbooks were/are too slow for Flash/java use on modern web pages. IMO, the only "usable" (i.e. sufficient for current web video/Flash/java use) netbooks sre N550/N570/N2600 and anything with CPU's with higher Passmark scores than these (~500 or higher). The N570 has 2 threads/core, for 4 "virtual" cores.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netboo..._architectures

re: User familiarity.

As stated many times in this thread, that excuse is WAY outdated. That horse is DEAD and buried
The HUGE amount of alternative OS's on common devices (phones/tablets/Smart TV's, etc) with interfaces totally unlike XP/Win7 makes those recalcitrant users look silly.

Moving forward, EVERYONE has NO choice but to use SOMETHING different- iOS, OSX, Android 4.x/5.x/etc, ChromeOS, Win8, or a Linux with KDE/XFCE/Gnome/etc.

Why does it matter if they move to XFCE, KDE, vs Win8, Android, etc? They MUST learn something different in any case. They may as well gain their freedom and security in the process.

Android x86 appears to be progressing nicely
http://www.android-x86.org/

and may prove to be a bona-fide OS alternative to other Linux distros on standard PCs (desktops, notebooks) moving forward.

Last edited by Rgb; 06-26-2014 at 05:30 PM.
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Old 06-25-2014, 05:24 AM
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Why does it matter if they move to XFCE, KDE, vs Win8, Android, etc? They MUST learn something different in any case. They may as well gain their freedom and security in the process.
I said what the most hardcore tend to lean towards, at least here.
I and others cannot hammer stuff down their throats, we still need to find something they like to convince them to drop XP for good with no hard feelings (as the "I keep XP and screw all" is still a possible choice for such weak and illogic beings).

Simply stating "we drop support for XP" or making it more expensive than it should would only make the shop lose customers and is not a good idea.

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Old 06-26-2014, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Just a heads up- Mint 17 (based on Ubuntu 14.04 LTS) has been released in KDE and XFCE versions:

http://www.linuxmint.com/rel_qiana_xfce_whatsnew.php

http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php

These could be the goto distros for XP migrants, as they are the plug and play versions of Ubuntu

More apps and media player/codec support out of the box vs the base Ubuntu, plus an XP-like desktop layout and GUI by default.
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Old 06-26-2014, 10:29 PM
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Just a heads up- Mint 17 (based on Ubuntu 14.04 LTS) has been released in KDE and XFCE versions:

http://www.linuxmint.com/rel_qiana_xfce_whatsnew.php

http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php

These could be the goto distros for XP migrants, as they are the plug and play versions of Ubuntu

More apps and media player/codec support out of the box vs the base Ubuntu, plus an XP-like desktop layout and GUI by default.
Using the Mate version right now and am pretty pleased. More plug and play than Mint 13. Less set up. I'm pretty happy. Hopefully the XFCE version is rock solid. Never liked KDE on Mint. Just go for Kubuntu if you're a KDE kind of person. Just my opinion.
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Old 06-28-2014, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Using the Mate version right now and am pretty pleased. More plug and play than Mint 13. Less set up. I'm pretty happy. Hopefully the XFCE version is rock solid. Never liked KDE on Mint. Just go for Kubuntu if you're a KDE kind of person. Just my opinion.
I continue to believe that MATE is duplication of effort vs XFCE. MATE and XFCE projects ought to be merged, IMO, or discontinue MATE and move developer and related resources to the XFCE team.

Yes, Ubuntu KDE/XFCE versions have added more and more apps and codecs by default version after version the past 5 years, and/or installing apps & drivers has become increasingly trivial on K/X/Ubuntu, so the "advantages" of Mint over the similar Ubuntu desktop flavors have continually shrunk.

I hate to always bring that up, as the Mint team does a lot of work and has continually improved their apps repositories ("store"), updates/patch system and related system management utilities. In recent years, Mint's biggest contribution has been the Cinnamon desktop, a worthwhile and laudable achievement. Another impressive move was Mint's attempt to switch to a Debian base, but that appears on hold.

Maybe someday they will "stand on their own" and become an independent Debian based distro not based on Ubuntu, but given the economies of scale and networking effects in play now and moving forward,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect

if a distro is not app/repository/driver compatible with one of the "big three" (Debian-Ubuntu/deb, Red Hat-Fedora/rpm or Suse/rpm) it won't gain significant numbers to justify support by the Chromes, Skypes, Steams, etc of the world. Yes, any distro can survive with a small die hard techie community behind it, but we need the attention of the commercial entities just to be able to continue to use a FOSS distro in a meaningful manner on the commercial web.

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Old 06-28-2014, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Rgb View Post
if a distro is not app/repository/driver compatible with one of the "big three" (Debian-Ubuntu/deb, Red Hat-Fedora/rpm or Suse/rpm) it won't gain significant numbers to justify support by the Chromes, Skypes, Steams, etc of the world. Yes, any distro can survive with a small die hard techie community behind it, but we need the attention of the commercial entities just to be able to continue to use a FOSS distro in a meaningful manner on the commercial web.
I believe this applies to Arch Linux. I tried to install it a while back, when done all I had was a blinking cursor, I did not know that a desktop was not installed by default. After installing a desktop, my touchpad wouldn't work. I gave up and installed Ubuntu, and it fully work after the install.
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Old 06-29-2014, 05:56 AM - Thread Starter
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I believe this applies to Arch Linux. I tried to install it a while back, when done all I had was a blinking cursor, I did not know that a desktop was not installed by default. After installing a desktop, my touchpad wouldn't work. I gave up and installed Ubuntu, and it fully work after the install.
This is why I 've always rallied around Ubuntu and its compatibles, even through bad releases and the Unity backlash. The *only* way we will continue to be able to use FOSS OS's in a useful, practical manner on the public/commercial web moving forward is if a few compatible distro families have most of the FOSS install counts.

One of the complaints of desktop linux in the early/mid 2000's was there were "too many" distros, making commercial app/driver support difficult and/or having too many "ways of doing things" (installers, directory strctures, config file styles, etc).

That issue is basically resolved, as most desktop distros useful to "normal" users are based on/compatible with the Big Three distro families mentioned earlier. IMO, for consumers, there are only two real choices of compatible distro families- Debian-Ubuntu and Red Hat-Fedora. Suse/openSuse has a foothold in corporate installations.
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Old 06-29-2014, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by waterhead View Post
I believe this applies to Arch Linux. I tried to install it a while back, when done all I had was a blinking cursor, I did not know that a desktop was not installed by default. After installing a desktop, my touchpad wouldn't work. I gave up and installed Ubuntu, and it fully work after the install.
No offence, but reading documentation and release notes before committing is very important in Linux world as distro developers have no reason to make stuff for a wide audience like for Windows world.

Arch has everything needed (usually better because it lives on the edge of the very latest versions) because the distro is designed around building stuff from source with ease, and on average what isn't in official repos is in AUR (the user-made/maintained packages compiled from source). But if you read their motto and wiki you see clearly that it is a developer-oriented distro, catering to elite terminal wizards.

It even lacks an installer now. Everything has to be done by hand from the command line after you booted in the system. Also their forums have very strict rules.

To those that want to try Arch for the other interesting features it has, I usually recommend Antergos (because Arch has indeed interesting features, excellent documentation useful for other distros too, and most users are badass so even if there are much less you usually get better answers to your queries than when going in Ubuntu or Mint forums).
It is basically Arch for the masses (an Arch-linux derivative), with an installer and a live-cd like normal distros, but it just adds user-friendly interfaces over an Arch core. More or less like Ubuntu or Linux mint vs Debian.

Gentoo and Slackware are on the same boat. Both cater to more (very) experienced users that are able to recompile from source (and manually check dependencies), so as long as the source is somewhere, they can have that software it too. FOSS for you, FOSS for them.

I never strayed too far from Debian/Ubuntu/Mint myself. The farthest I got was with Puppy linux and Antergos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgb
The *only* way we will continue to be able to use FOSS OS's in a useful, practical manner on the public/commercial web moving forward is if a few compatible distro families have most of the FOSS install counts.
That's what happened since the start. Debian/Ubuntu RedHat/Fedora and openSuse were the ones that were specifically oriented towards more consumer-like audience. Most others non-package-compatible distros were developer-oriented, experiments (like puppy or tinycore), or very specialistic distros anyway.

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Originally Posted by rgb
One of the complaints of desktop linux in the early/mid 2000's was there were "too many" distros, making commercial app/driver support difficult and/or having too many "ways of doing things" (installers, directory strctures, config file styles, etc).
Propaganda. Major distros come from before 2000 and remain largely unchanged as far as structure, packages and configs go (and they aren't exactly horribly different even now).
Each distro's packages are made by the distro maintainers anyway, that take distro-agnostic source code and adapt it to the distro's own startup/logging/chronojob methods.

Hardware support is completely and utterly independent from the distro as the linux kernel is exactly the same (apart from tiny distro-specific modifications like ubuntu that wants support for its own in-house startup system), before the last 4 years no major hardware manufacturer was horribly interested about linux. As simple as this.
Now we even have Steam pushing for good linux hardware support (and throwing money at the issues) for graphics, and with the boom of Android devices (Android is technically a specialized linux distro, the core is still linux) most hardware manufacturers tend to look at linux and FOSS support with much more interest than before.
I also like to believe that Win8 did its part in this, by showing how bad it can get if they put all their eggs in one basket.

The only reason for the lack of support was the lack of market share. 2% of consumer market is still ridiculously low.

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Old 06-29-2014, 12:02 PM
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i have another xp box to refurbish and sell (dell optiplex 745, sff), and i'm thinking about giving mint+xfce a go. any opinions? i typically use kubuntu or opensuse, but if mint is friendlier to non-linux users then i'm willing to give it a try.

edit: it might be the desktop version instead of sff. doesn't really matter, tho

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Old 06-29-2014, 12:38 PM
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i have another xp box to refurbish and sell (dell optiplex 745, sff), and i'm thinking about giving mint+xfce a go. any opinions? i typically use kubuntu or opensuse, but if mint is friendlier to non-linux users then i'm willing to give it a try.

edit: it might be the desktop version instead of sff. doesn't really matter, tho
I've found the XFCE and KDE versions of Mint to be "glitchy". Weird things happening and stuff. Mint is best when used with Mate or Cinnamon.

Mint really took off when Ubuntu moved to Unity and Gnome released Gnome3. People were still wanting a Gnome2 experience and Mate and Cinnamon catered to that. Mint jumped on those and really became the premier distro featuring those two desktops.

So, like I said in a previous post. If XFCE or KDE are your thing, then Ubuntu variants are probably your best bet. If you want your machine to look as close to XP as possible and still be Linux, then Mint has done a fantastic job of that.

However, let's be real here. Windows XP "feel" is really about where the panel is. Mint puts theirs on the bottom with a Menu (Start) button in the bottom left with the tray in the bottom right. They organize the panel like Windows XP.
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Old 06-29-2014, 01:31 PM
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I've found the XFCE and KDE versions of Mint to be "glitchy". Weird things happening and stuff. Mint is best when used with Mate or Cinnamon.

Mint really took off when Ubuntu moved to Unity and Gnome released Gnome3. People were still wanting a Gnome2 experience and Mate and Cinnamon catered to that. Mint jumped on those and really became the premier distro featuring those two desktops.

So, like I said in a previous post. If XFCE or KDE are your thing, then Ubuntu variants are probably your best bet. If you want your machine to look as close to XP as possible and still be Linux, then Mint has done a fantastic job of that.

However, let's be real here. Windows XP "feel" is really about where the panel is. Mint puts theirs on the bottom with a Menu (Start) button in the bottom left with the tray in the bottom right. They organize the panel like Windows XP.

thank you. i'll stick with opensuse for this one. this box should be able to handle kde well (although i have my choice of desktops with opensuse's installer), and i like the "1-click install" stuff for pipelight, etc. plus, YaST is simply awesome, as i've mentioned before. i put opensuse on a laptop for a customer and loaded up skype (he was thrilled, esp. since he didn't have to worry about malware anymore), and i put opensuse on a desktop for an elderly couple. i had to go out there to set up their printer to share with a windows laptop wirelessly, but they love it. it's funny -- their volume was muted for some reason, and their grandkids were able to get in there and fix it for them having never used linux before. if that isn't a testament to "user-friendliness" then one doesn't exist.
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Old 06-29-2014, 03:03 PM
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For the sake of completeness, Cinnamon is glitchy as hell if the GPU does not support OpenGL 2.1 or later (or if drivers suck).

Intel graphics are well-supported so as long as you aren't asking 3D or OpenGL it will be fine.

In general, if you are the man doing the support after the "conversion" and the customer does not have particular needs, stick with whatever you know better and call it a day.

Skype is available on every linux distro, pipelight is easy to install in Ubuntu-based distros too, YaST has somewhat crappier equivalents in Mint's Control Center (as far as post-installation settings go) and in the Software Sources panels, but it is getting better.
Gosh, with version 17 they finally added the localization change tool and IT WORKS, even for xfce (there is no xfce language changer afaik, you must do manual changes or hope the display manager can do it on login).

But frankly I'm mildly pissed at the slight instability of Ubuntu core (problem in Ubuntu proper and also derivatives), and updates breaking stuff.
Will give a shot at OpenSUSE on my guinea pig netbook. If it runs well on it then it will run awesome on anything.

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Old 06-29-2014, 03:05 PM
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their volume was muted for some reason, and their grandkids were able to get in there and fix it for them having never used linux before. if that isn't a testament to "user-friendliness" then one doesn't exist.
This is my whole rant about people that "Know Windows". If you can't figure out how to unmute your sound on ANY platform (Windows, Mac or Linux) you don't know any platform. I did have a similar occurrence with a relative that was so tickled that he figured out how to change various settings like his screensaver timer and automatic login, etc. He's running Ubuntu, and for the first time was willing to go into the "Settings" menu and tinker.

He's thoroughly convinced he's computer illiterate. It's not his thing for sure, but illiterate he isn't. Not anymore. The one thing that I told him that set him free, "The worst that can happen is we reload the operating system. Just stay out of the partitioning tool".

He was converted to Ubuntu several years ago when I got tired of removing viruses due to his two teenage sons that swore up and down that they "Were not watching porn" in blocks of time that measured into days. Due to all the issues he had he was terrified to go into any settings and even get on the internet. Ubuntu set him free.

Sucks though because when I loaded Ubuntu it was still Gnome2. He "accidentally" upgraded to 12.04 and Unity. He really likes Unity and I hate Unity. So troubleshooting over the phone is difficult.
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Old 06-29-2014, 03:12 PM
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Will give a shot at OpenSUSE on my guinea pig netbook. If it runs well on it then it will run awesome on anything.
I'm firmly entrenched in Ubuntu based distros at home (with a splash of ArchLinux on my media machines), but our formerly RedHat based machines at work are now using OpenSuse. To be clear, we're using OpenSuse to run multimillion dollar MRI scanners. Competitors use Windows. Our competitors wish they had our market share.
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Old 06-29-2014, 03:32 PM
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...we're using OpenSuse to run multimillion dollar MRI scanners. Competitors use Windows. Our competitors wish they had our market share.
What desktop environment are you using with openSUSE?
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Old 06-29-2014, 03:54 PM
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This is my whole rant about people that "Know Windows". If you can't figure out how to unmute your sound on ANY platform (Windows, Mac or Linux) you don't know any platform. I did have a similar occurrence with a relative that was so tickled that he figured out how to change various settings like his screensaver timer and automatic login, etc. He's running Ubuntu, and for the first time was willing to go into the "Settings" menu and tinker.

He's thoroughly convinced he's computer illiterate. It's not his thing for sure, but illiterate he isn't. Not anymore. The one thing that I told him that set him free, "The worst that can happen is we reload the operating system. Just stay out of the partitioning tool".

He was converted to Ubuntu several years ago when I got tired of removing viruses due to his two teenage sons that swore up and down that they "Were not watching porn" in blocks of time that measured into days. Due to all the issues he had he was terrified to go into any settings and even get on the internet. Ubuntu set him free.

Sucks though because when I loaded Ubuntu it was still Gnome2. He "accidentally" upgraded to 12.04 and Unity. He really likes Unity and I hate Unity. So troubleshooting over the phone is difficult.
if you can't unmute the volume, lol...but, this was an elderly couple, and they were sweet and genuinely interested in what was happening. i even managed to explain to them why they needed a static IP to share the printer to their windows laptop (i used IPP). i have nothing but good things to say about opensuse, and i hope that it gets a better rep around here than it has.
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Old 06-29-2014, 03:58 PM
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He's thoroughly convinced he's computer illiterate.
Heh, one of the reasons we can sell tablets or mediaboxes as miniPCs is that people thinking they are "computer illiterates" also see Android devices as "easier to use".

It has nothing to do with the device's actual capabilities, and 99% with the idea they have of it.

And since I cannot convince them, I can only find workarounds. That's what I do with PCs all the time, it's weird to apply the same logic to solve people's issues....

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Originally Posted by minivanman
his two teenage sons that swore up and down that they "Were not watching porn" in blocks of time that measured into days.
I'm somewhat assuming they had the standard configuration, one user with Admin privileges used by everyone, no password, autologin. If they had no admin privileges there is no way in heck that just watching pr0n would fill the PC of malware.
No wait. Scratch that. Internet explorer users probably. IE could do that and more in its golden days.

Although I never thought of this point of view.
Linux: watching porn for days has never been so safe!

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Old 06-29-2014, 04:08 PM
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porn on linux = safer than fort knox
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Old 06-29-2014, 05:48 PM
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What desktop environment are you using with openSUSE?
Custom. Let's call it a "User Interface" and not necessarily a desktop. Though our root runs on Gnome2 if you boot into root. So, to answer your question, the backside of it is Gnome2, carried over from old days (no need to reinvent the wheel) with a custom user interface built on top of it. The only part of Gnome that we really use is a stripped background with Nautilus, a terminal and a few custom GUIs.

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if you can't unmute the volume, lol...but, this was an elderly couple, and they were sweet and genuinely interested in what was happening. i even managed to explain to them why they needed a static IP to share the printer to their windows laptop (i used IPP). i have nothing but good things to say about opensuse, and i hope that it gets a better rep around here than it has.
No, it's not an attack on those particular users. It's the people that are hesitant to do a conversion to Linux because they "Know Windows", but when it comes to doing simple things like placing a quick launcher on a panel, opening your File Manager and simple settings like audio, they are overwhelmed and revert to "I know Windows". Oh really, tell me how you do it in Windows. Then they clam up and say they'd have to look around but could do it. With Linux though, if it takes "looking around", then it's obviously broken and stupidly designed.
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Old 06-29-2014, 07:35 PM
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Linux: watching porn for days has never been so safe!
Tell a man how to go "Incognito" and that he'll be completely virus free, and you'll have a lot more Linux converts. Just don't do it in front of his wife, parents, or children. Best to discretely hand him a note under the table.
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Old 06-29-2014, 11:07 PM
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oh, and i'll be attaching these important safety instructions to the unit whenever i sell it. just to be safe.
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Old 07-01-2014, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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