Qualia 004 owners: What's your next step - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 100 Old 03-07-2008, 05:56 AM - Thread Starter
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I know you are out there. My 004 will be 3 years old in June, and I'm still on the first bulb! Sony shipped me the replacement a few months ago (free of course). The 004 is the finest piece of A/V equipment I've ever owned, and although it's absolute black level and marginal ANSI contrast would turn the stomach of the black level fascists that lurk here, I'm still amazed at the picture it can throw. With excellent source material, like Heroes, it's stunning.

At one point last fall, I had a tad of upgrade fever, what with Art finally ditching his Sony 90 stack for digital (pigs flew that day!). But I've come to the conclusion that it no longer makes sense to shell out another $30000 for a FP - it's not a cost issue, but a value issue for me. When Sony/JVC/SIM produces a FP with the lumen HP of my 004, state of the art black/contrast, comparable lens for under $5000, then I will bite.

I know a few owners have upgraded (?) their 004s. What are the rest of you doing?

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post #2 of 100 Old 03-07-2008, 06:08 AM
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I am going to hang on until there a more significant break through in design. I had my calibrator over last night and we estimated 16 ft lambers on a 14' wide microperf scope screen (w/ISCO III lens) with lamp on Normal (high) and Iris 1. We didn't get to the calibration so there may be a little more there... I am satisfied with the brightness overall. Mind you this is on a bulb with just over 700 hours on it. The optics are first class as well..

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #3 of 100 Old 03-07-2008, 06:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I am going to hang on until there a more significant break through in design.

What you said
BTW, did you get the Lumagen?

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post #4 of 100 Old 03-07-2008, 07:37 AM
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J.Mike
I am not a Qualia member but perhaps you should deem yourself worthy of putting in that second fresh bulb.
What is your deaier saying as far as the future of Sony and sxrd? Noone gave a clear answer at the Sony line show, any indications of a Sony laser something coming to the market?

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post #5 of 100 Old 03-07-2008, 08:06 AM
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No. No indication. Sorry.

if you were Sony and have exited the RP TV market, would you be investing significant sums in SXRD chip design?

But you could change a lot of parts and keeping improving things in your SXRD FP keeping the base SXRD chip more or less the same. Hell. You could buy SXRD type chips from someone else who chose to invest in further SXRD type chip advancement.

In many many many ways the VPL-vw200 is a better machine than the 004. However it is no where as bright and it has somewhat better optics because its zooms are of much shorter range. Splitting one lens zoom range into three different lens, all else being equal will result in a better lens and a wider effective aperture for the same money and a flatterlens surface sweet spot.


but unless you have a really wide screen like the Blands, one can get overall picture quality as good as the 004 for about $10K.

Sony can get its dealers to bite on the few remaining 004s it has. it keeps lowering the price. Hell of a deal for anybody really needing high lumens like the Bland.


but absent such an application there are now better ways to go for street less than than even the low new dealer cost for an 004. Can't talk prices here. But considering a new 004 comes with a spare $3000 bulb 9when you need it), a projector ceiling mount, and the $3K upgrade not on the original, a hell of a deal but nobody wants it.

on the other hand, 200s are selling OK.


To justify a $30K price point for a new Qualia top of the line type model, Sony would have to substantially beat the performance level of the 200. It can't at this point, that's why there is no 004 replacement. The 200 is already better except for as mentioned above.

i am really trying to be objective here. That's the way I see it.

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post #6 of 100 Old 03-07-2008, 08:20 AM
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Sony wants to win a big percentage of the digital theater market, so I wouldn't count them out on big time development of LCoS, especially in the 4K and/or 1080x2560 arenas. Unless guys like JVC and DLP backers just pound them into submissions with ongoing $$$ losses.

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post #7 of 100 Old 03-07-2008, 08:23 AM
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mark haflich
vw200 only needed more brightness to be a true successor, right?
If Sony makes a full stop on sxrd the movie industry will never ever trust Sony when trying to sell them a hot new technology. Laser illumination hopefully could solve the brightness issue for Sony in digital cinema. Laser illumination for digital cinema a go or no go is a topic at the Projector summit.

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post #8 of 100 Old 03-07-2008, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

J.Mike
I am not a Qualia member but perhaps you should deem yourself worthy of putting in that second fresh bulb.
What is your deaier saying as far as the future of Sony and sxrd? Noone gave a clear answer at the Sony line show, any indications of a Sony laser something coming to the market?

I have a gray 100" screen. Right now, I've re-calibrated the 004 - low bulb setting, but full iris (over the 3 years, I've changed the iris setting from 2 to 0 as the bulb has aged, and still get a bright colorful picture with plenty of punch). Since I don't have a cave, and host many football parties during the season, the 004 handles ambient light whereas the cheaper Sonys would wash out.

I agree with Mark that Sony does not seem to have an 004 replacement. It could be that they are waiting for laser technology to become marketable.

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post #9 of 100 Old 03-07-2008, 11:14 AM
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Im considering a qty deal on 004s but I do not think the market supports it right now. Its a tough call.
Im a fan of the 200 but the 004 people are use to that extra brightness and thats where the 200 is not in the same league.
There is something in the works from Sony but it is now delayed. We may get lucky with an introduction Cedia 08, maybe not. Its not laser.
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post #10 of 100 Old 03-07-2008, 11:23 AM
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1080x2560 ultra widescreen?

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post #11 of 100 Old 03-07-2008, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Alan,
Make sure the 004s that you are looking at have the 1080p input mod. Here's the catch: the 1080p input mod is only for DVI - the HDMI will only accept 1080i. Also, I recommend that the 004 desperately needs a video processor like the Lumagen HDPro with its DVI output and ability to output a 1080p signal as well as a 1080p24f/s signal. The 1080p24f/s is equivilant to the 1080p24 that the Blu-ray outputs. What i do is have the Blu-ray output 1080i to the Lumagen and have the Lumagen process the signal for the 004.

For those clients that want a very big screen, a 004/Lumagen HDPro combo would be a stellar setup. Since the HD Pro is out of production, call Jim and see if he can give you a deal.

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post #12 of 100 Old 03-07-2008, 01:02 PM
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My Q004 is 3+ years old. I'm keeping it for now. It has an amazing film like image that is not present in the DLPs. The optics are superb. When the source it top notch, the picture is gorgeous. I'm willing to wait a year or more for the next major advancement.
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post #13 of 100 Old 03-07-2008, 02:15 PM
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I replaced my q004 1 year ago with the jvc rs1. The rs1 is better in every way except color balance. I am extremely happy with my decision. I also have the radiance for color correction. Better black level was expected but I also found the rs1 to be sharper and brighter. Granted, my q004 had 1800 hours when I switched. The rs1 is truly an amazing ground breaking pj.
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post #14 of 100 Old 03-07-2008, 02:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lktanx View Post

I replaced my q004 1 year ago with the jvc rs1. The rs1 is better in every way except color balance. I am extremely happy with my decision. I also have the radiance for color correction. Better black level was expected but I also found the rs1 to be sharper and brighter. Granted, my q004 had 1800 hours when I switched. The rs1 is truly an amazing ground breaking pj.

Some of us would argue that lumens, or lack thereof, is an even bigger issue. but I'm glad you love your JVC.

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post #15 of 100 Old 03-07-2008, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Mike Ferrara View Post

Some of us would argue that lumens, or lack thereof, is an even bigger issue. but I'm glad you love your JVC.

Not sure what you mean. I just found the jvc to be brighter. What was interesting was that the jvc showed of sparklies of my firehawk for the first time. It was annoying to see this.
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post #16 of 100 Old 03-07-2008, 03:01 PM
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With 1800 hours your bulb was nearly end of life. I wonder what the JVC will look like at 1800 hours.
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post #17 of 100 Old 03-07-2008, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Im considering a qty deal on 004s but I do not think the market supports it right now. Its a tough call.
Im a fan of the 200 but the 004 people are use to that extra brightness and thats where the 200 is not in the same league.
There is something in the works from Sony but it is now delayed. We may get lucky with an introduction Cedia 08, maybe not. Its not laser.

i had a qualia stack long time ago but when i read about how bright
the qualia is that not true at least in some ways.

i drive it max. light out with no iris at all and full power
lamp.
that give you in the first hours about 1500 lumen at 1200:1 cr.
if i remember right.
that cr. can increase in iris 2 to good 2000:1 but than the unit have max.
600 lumen light out.

as far as i read here most people drive it in high cr. mode so the
light out was not more then 600 lumen at d 65!

the huge light drop the qualia have(50% in the first 500 houres) are
some other thing.

so todays 600-700 lumen pr. like the rs2 or the sony vw 60 or vw 200
are at least as bright as the most qualia owners use the pr.
and have a far better cr.

some months ago a guy with a qualia visit me and we compare it with a
new 3chip full hd pr. and i tell you beside cr. the qualia not look bad!
even with the only 150 ansi cr. and 1000:1 on off at
high light out and no iris i measured it looks very nice but i am sure the
qualia will lose if you compare it with the new rs2 the vw 200 or the new maranz single chip dlp.
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post #18 of 100 Old 03-07-2008, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Mike Ferrara View Post

What you said
BTW, did you get the Lumagen?

Yes...and I am feeding 1080P24 from my H DVD and BD machines to the Radiance and sending out 1080P24sf to my Qualia. With the CIH set up, I am in nirvana.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #19 of 100 Old 03-07-2008, 09:45 PM
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I have been told by reliable sony sources the Qualia replacement will not be at Cedia 08. A potential one reportedly exists in lab form but the design is still evolving.

Sony dealers who sell reasonable quanties of Sony projectors such as AVS and others have been target by Sony sales for liquidation of the few sony qualias remaining in Sony inventory. Tthose few are not moving and no dealer has deemed buying them a prudent investment. The low CR and high bulb replacement costs I think in dealers' minds would scare potential consumer purchasers off. I suspect that Sony wil lowerthe price of these even more. My guess is that some dealer could over Sony several thousand less than the present sony asking and I'd bet Sony would make the deal if the dealer took the lot. the lot is only a few units anyway.

Jeff. Alan or some other Sony dealer could get you one cheap and you could do a stack. I've seen a triple stack of these myself. the screen was slightly bigger than yours. would it be cool. 2 qualias and 2 isco. I've never seen that.

There is no MSRP on the blow outs. They are the upgraded units doing 1080p 60 as well as 1080p My guess is that street would be under $15K (even less if the dealer buys the lot) and with that you get two bulbs.Hell 2 bulbs would cost one $6000 and lor under $9k more or less I guess, I dunnno, you'd get an 004 thrown in. And that includes a $3K nid zoom range lans, so you'd get the projector for what $5 or 6K. Hell I think some dealer could invest and part them out later at a high yield in another 5 years or so when Sony has no more repair parts for them.

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post #20 of 100 Old 03-07-2008, 10:14 PM
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Sony can sell those things for 10K and they'll have a hard time selling one to an informed consumer when a person can purchase a JVC RS2 for $7500. I can hear some Qualia owners howling about how there is more to the Qualia than just contrast specs and so on, and that's undoubtedly true, but my *opinion* still stands. Personally, I'd pay 3K for one just because it looks cool but no more due to the cost of the bulb. If it was still state-of-the-art the bulb cost would be less important, but who wants to spend 3K on a bulb for an old projector?
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post #21 of 100 Old 03-07-2008, 10:54 PM
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The issue which made me switch away from the Q004 was the black level and contrast ratio. The Q004 performed very poorly in dark scenes. Parts of "Batman Begins" and almost the entire "The Descent" is very dark. Under these conditions, the elevated black level of the Q004 were painfully obvious with a very washed out look. These scenes can really remind the viewer that he is merely watching a movie. The RS1 is significantly better and I am sure the RS2 is even better.

I do not think stacking helps contrast ratio. Both the brightness and the dark level gets proportionally elevated when stacked. As such there is no net gain in video quality.

When I got the RS1, I was expecting significant improvement in CR which I did get. What surprised me was that the RS1 was also brighter and sharper. Sure the Q004 may have a better lens but if the end result is that the RS1 is sharper, this just means that the RS1 design was better optimized. The high quality lens on the Q004 may be unnecessary. The Q004 lens may also have smaller amount of edge light drop-off. However, during normal viewing, such an effect is rarely noticeable.

The more I use the RS1 the the more impressed I am with it. In my opinion, JVC designed this PJ and invested their money in the most important parameters of the design. They got the important things right. If the price of an RS1 and a Q004 (with 1080P upgrade) were identical (i.e. both were $3k), I would still choose the RS1.
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post #22 of 100 Old 03-08-2008, 02:11 AM
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If unused bulbs age well Sony can just sell Q004s with a lifetime supply of bulbs. Lets say that is 2 extra bulbs. That is alot of movie watching time.

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post #23 of 100 Old 03-08-2008, 04:44 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm sure my gray screen helps with the black level. But the 004 is 4 year old technology, and the manufacturers now embrace contrast and black levels - look at Pioneer's Kuro. There are scenes that make me painfully aware of the 004s limitations in this regard - but this regard only. The mothership still proudly hangs and still elicits oohs and aahs.

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post #24 of 100 Old 03-08-2008, 04:59 AM
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The Qualia is a great projector, that in my situation, is providing an extended life for me until the next great thingarrives. The JVC projectors are nice but they simply cannot light up an extremely large screen. Moreover, most projectors use UHP bulbs, and for me Xenon provides the best light. Moreover, I haven't seen a PJ yet as quiet as the Qualia.

I know there is better now, but I am waiting for a shift in technology to provide a significant upgrade in performance. Until then, the 004 provides a pleasing picture.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #25 of 100 Old 03-08-2008, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

The Qualia is a great projector, that in my situation, is providing an extended life for me until the next great thingarrives. The JVC projectors are nice but they simply cannot light up an extremely large screen. Moreover, most projectors use UHP bulbs, and for me Xenon provides the best light. Moreover, I haven't seen a PJ yet as quiet as the Qualia.

I know there is better now, but I am waiting for a shift in technology to provide a significant upgrade in performance. Until then, the 004 provides a pleasing picture.

Jeff,

My RS1 with a new bulb is brighter than my Q004 with an older bulb. So I think their brightness is similar. Are you running your Q004 in high lamp mode? I think this is the only mode the Q004 can be much brighter but you pay for it with lower CR.

At the moment I would like to see an RS2-like projector from JVC with 120Hz interpolated refresh. This would really improve panning scenes.
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post #26 of 100 Old 03-08-2008, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Mike Ferrara View Post

I'm sure my gray screen helps with the black level. But the 004 is 4 year old technology, and the manufacturers now embrace contrast and black levels - look at Pioneer's Kuro. There are scenes that make me painfully aware of the 004s limitations in this regard - but this regard only. The mothership still proudly hangs and still elicits oohs and aahs.

Mike,

You mentioned the issue of value in your original post. I am with you on this. I think one no longer needs to spend $30k on a PJ. The technology will continue to improve and a $30k PJ today will be worth a fraction of this price in 2 years.

I think the only time one needs to spend a lot on a PJ is if one wanted a very bright one to light up a very large screen. I think these PJs will continue to be expensive since they do not belong in the sweet spot of home theater applications. These PJs are semi-professional or professional, i.e. for commercial theaters.
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post #27 of 100 Old 03-08-2008, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lktanx View Post

Jeff,

My RS1 with a new bulb is brighter than my Q004 with an older bulb. So I think their brightness is similar. Are you running your Q004 in high lamp mode? I think this is the only mode the Q004 can be much brighter but you pay for it with lower CR.

At the moment I would like to see an RS2-like projector from JVC with 120Hz interpolated refresh. This would really improve panning scenes.

The RS2 is out of the question for my application. Too dim.

My ISF calibrator conducted a PJ shoot out recently with 4 low priced PJs, and found that on a 10' screen after calibration the RS2 only mustered 19 ft lamberts.. That is little more than i am getting now on my 14' wide screen with my Qualia. Moreover, it is with a UHP bulb which is inferior to a true Xenon. The difference in screen square footage going from a 10' wide scope to a 14' wide is 2X. So, I'd expect that piece to get closer to 10 ft lamberts with that PJ on my screen. Better contrast or not, it's be too dim...

See here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=994668

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #28 of 100 Old 03-08-2008, 01:17 PM
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Jeff,

I think in your case it is not a matter of Q004 versus RS1 or RS2. Your screen is just too large for these PJs. I am referring to using the Q004 in high CR mode or equivalently low lamp mode.

Unfortunately the larger screens fall out of the sweet spot which many of the commercial manufacturers such as Sony or JVC are designing for. Hence you pay much more for equivalent performance to get the brighter PJs.
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post #29 of 100 Old 03-10-2008, 05:23 PM
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There will be a new flagship. Period. That's what I am waiting for personally as I've had mine since the first week they were in the US as everyone knows, and I have tested and calibrated several "alternatives" recently, and still nothing compares. With a Radiance in tow with 1080P/24 to SF conversion, the only thing I am missing is 36bit color, and I personally don't care about that right now. I will wait till we see something at CEDIA or CES, and it will be a Sony. No, I'm not interested in debating with Mark or anyone else on how I know this, but I do, and most people on here know I do work with Sony outside of selling Sony because of my work with their Concierge program and as the Sony ASC for Qualia.

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post #30 of 100 Old 03-11-2008, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by DocDVD View Post

There will be a new flagship. Period. That's what I am waiting for personally as I've had mine since the first week they were in the US as everyone knows, and I have tested and calibrated several "alternatives" recently, and still nothing compares. With a Radiance in tow with 1080P/24 to SF conversion, the only thing I am missing is 36bit color, and I personally don't care about that right now. I will wait till we see something at CEDIA or CES, and it will be a Sony. No, I'm not interested in debating with Mark or anyone else on how I know this, but I do, and most people on here know I do work with Sony outside of selling Sony because of my work with their Concierge program and as the Sony ASC for Qualia.

I would ask, however, how you know it will be Sony rather than say PD,Christie,Barco just as examples ?

Art

My HT


iRule rules my theater
 

"If she's amazing she won't be easy,if she's easy she won't be amazing"

 

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Art Sonneborn is offline  
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