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Super Tweak--Lps, Cds, SACDs, and DVDs

23K views 412 replies 47 participants last post by  Dizzman 
#1 ·
I posted this on Audiogon and Audioasylum last night and figured many here might see it there. This morning after further consideration i decided to add it here too as the techie/skeptic ratio here is much higher and i think this can benefit from some good objective analysis. although i hope that many here would listen to and use this tweak i understand that realistically, most will just want to toss around the theories behind it. in any case; this forum deserves to know about this.


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This tweak makes huge improvements to system performance; lowering noise floor, improving dynamic contrasts, improving bass articulation, improving the sense of space and scale, and improving naturalness. The effect does vary from disc to disc from considerable to mind-blowing. This tweak is for Lps, Cds, SACD's and DVD's.


I've been trying tweaks since I got serious about this hobby 14 years ago. I've got all the different products that clean, treat, or mess with' discs. Most disc tweaks work to some degree..but none have ever worked well enough to become essential.until now.


I will start by giving an overview of what I do to apply the tweak and how I think the tweak works. Please understand that everything I will explain is my interpretation of my observations and me re-hashing what has been told to me. I'm no techie or engineer and so please be gentle when judging my ability to reveal cause and effect. Next I will describe a bit about the history of how the thinking about this tweak evolved.


Basically; this tweak involves two processes. De-ionization and de-magnetizing of mediasimultaneously. Since these processes are not permanent effects; time is an important element of how well and how long lasting the tweak works. From my observations; it seems that de-ionizing accounts for approx 75% of the effect and de-mag about 25%. I apply the tweak by placing the disc (Lp, Cd, or SACD) onto my Acoustic Revive RL-30 Demagnetizer and then blowing hot air with a hair dryer onto the disc while the demag process is happening.


I apply the process to both sides of any disc; for an Lp I apply the process first to the side I won't be listening to and second to the side I will play. The effect is only strong for 15 to 30 minutes so I always reapply the process when I change sides. For a Cd or SACD I do the label side first and then the read side. This takes about 25 seconds per side for any disc. So a total of 60 seconds start to finish. For digital I hear 100% of the effect all the way thru most discs. For Lp or digital disc if the disc is stopped and started a few times the effect diminishes. It's ideal to place the disc immediately on the tt or transport..and immediately play.


The hair dryer is one that uses Tourmaline to provide negative ions to equalize the charge on the surface of media disc. Then there are Tourmaline balls encased in a diffuser attached to the barrel of the hair dryer. Hot air blown thru the diffuser releases negative ions from the Tourmaline onto the media.


I have been using this tweak for almost 100% of my listening for the last three months...doing before and after comparisons regularly. I've done 15 to 20 blind observations..with 100% correct choices. I've had 5 separate visitors to my room who have all had similar reactions as myself.


This tweak evolved from a discussion between my local friend and now President of our local audio club, Andrew Kosobutsky..and Brian Kyle of Xtreme Cables in California. They were discussing a contact treatment product which Brian sells and somehow the discussion evolved to the Acoustic Revive RIO-5II, which treats digital media with negative ions with natural ore Tourmaline'. Brian was making some Lp sized sleeves out of Tourmaline cloth to see if that would have a positive effect on Lps. You would need to blow hot air from a hair dryer onto the cloth sleeves to get the Tourmaline cloth to release the negative ions onto the Lp.


Brian had heavy Tourmaline cloth and lighter Tourmaline cloth and asked Andrew if he could do some listening to both and give him his impressions. Andrew agreed and Brian sent him the sleeves.


Andrew already owned the Acoustic Revive RL-30 III large disc demagnetizer which he used for his Lps. After demag'ing the Lps he would try the Tourmaline sleeves. Then he tried both processes simultaneously and discovered a huge improvement..this was the break-thru moment. It turned out that the effects of both processes when done at the same time were more than additive.


A week later Andrew called and came over to demonstrate the tweak in my room. I was highly skeptical but it blew me away. I asked Andrew if I could get a set of sleeves to try and after checking with Brian, two sleeves were sent to Andrew for me. I agreed not to tell anyone about how this worked. Andrew knew I had lots of visitors but I agreed not to explain it to anyone.


For the next few weeks I enjoyed the best music reproduction performance I had ever heard form any system. I listened to everything again.for the first week I listened to everything twice.first without and then with. 40% of the time it was much better, 30% of the time it was amazingly better, and 30% of the time I could not believe what I was hearing. After that mostly I just did the tweak..i was convinced.


Andrew was not satisfied. He was convinced that the effect of the Tourmaline could be much greater by using more of the Tourmaline than the sleeves or even the Acoustic Revive RIO. He found some Tourmaline balls in China and had them shipped to him. He then purchased a Tourmaline hair dryer and installed these tourmaline balls in the diffuser of the hair dryer. He experimented with a few different ways to have the balls in the diffuser. He brought over his first effort and it was clearly much better than the sleeves. Then a week later he brought over the version I am now using. Much better, and very nicely put together.


Andrew had shared his simultaneous demag idea and tourmaline ball direction with Brian and Brian has developed his own tourmaline hair dryer product (which I have not yet seen or tried).


Demagnetizing a disc is nothing new. There are numerous products already out there that people already have or can be purchased. I am not in a position to say which is best; but I know the Acoustic Revive ML-30 III works great and accommodates all types of discs. As far as I know all the demag products I've seen allow for using the hair dryer to de-ionize.


There may be hundreds of ways to de-ionize discs; I'm only familiar with the Tourmaline sleeve/hair dryer approach, the hair dryer with tourmaline balls in the diffuser approach and the Acoustic Revive RIO-5II. Personally I have not tried the RIO and you can't demag simultaneously with the RIO. Brian Kyle will be selling a Tourmaline Hair dryer with Tourmaline balls in the diffuser but Andrew is not doing a commercial product.


Considering all the techie horsepower in our hobby; I would guess that almost every audiophile either could do this himself or knows someone who can.


One last thing about the Tourmaline hair dryer with tourmaline balls in the diffuser.it's scary what it can do by itself. Blow it on an untreated Lp already on a tt and you get much of the effect.blow it on cables and the bass improves and the soundstage expands. I think we are only scratching the surface of what this process can do to improve performance. I wonder if digital transports might not incorporate demag and de-ionizing in some way to sustain the effect permanently.


I do not know if the effect of this tweak will be the same in every system. I suspect that the higher the resolution, the lower the noise floor, and the better the acoustics of a system are..the greater and more consistent the result will be. I think one issue will be that this tweak will make many systems..sources, preamps, cables, amps, speakers, rooms..more enjoyable. Upgrades might not seem as needed when things sound so good. The focus might become a bit more on finding new music and not so much on gear. I know that sounds quite over the top but that is how it has effected my viewpoint.


I am wearing my body armor and will take all my meds..i'll have my Lagavulin handy. There is likely to be much understandable skepticism initially until people have a chance to hear it for themselves. If there is anyone in the Seattle area who would care to hear it..or someone visiting Portland next week for VSAC who has the time for a side trip to the Seattle area (2 ½ hour one way drive to my home from VSAC)...they are welcome.
 
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#27 ·

Quote:
the digital data on the disc is objective information....fact.

No it isn't, it is either there or it isn't.

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the musical result of that data, the data reading process and the conversion to an analog signal is a variable.

The data reading process would be exact in all and every player and since this product has nothing to do with DAC's I see that as irrelevant right now.

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if we limit ourselves to digital discs; maybe you believe that all digital players sound the same.

If the player is used to output a digital signal then yes all CD/DVD players sound the same.

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you will have to find someone else to battle with on that.

So you will believe what ever a company tells/sells you?
 
#28 ·

Quote:
there are some very cool hard-drive solutions out there now.....and i'm thinking about that as a direction sometime too. Jonathan is introducing a new digital player this week that he thinks will be ideal as a DAC for a hard-drive based system. we spoke at length about how this tweak might be used with a hard-drive. possibly on the loading side of things. anyway; hard-drive solutions will likely go thru a maturation and development period as they discover ways for them to sound better. probably they'll figure it out about the time that digital storage converts to flash or other solid storage.

A tweak for a hard drive, now this is getting funny.
 
#29 ·
I may be showing my ignorance here, but what the heck. If a smudge on a disc can inhibit playability, is it not also possible that a build-up of magnetization (is that a word?), or ionization can hinder the lasers or needles ability read all the information on a disc or lp?

To a layman like myself this is the only thought that came to mind. My current system is probably not hi-end enough to note a difference, but I do enjoy in sharing all of your beliefs, theories, and speculations.
 
#30 ·
First, ignore DougWinsor/Bluray he is a nitwit.


And while i am prepared to say that mike has been hitting one of the great other exports of the pacific northwest
i am also saying that while i can think of no reason why this would do anything... who cares. the only reason to argue this little oddity is if you had tried it and found something or nothing there.


If you had not, then offering anything more than a passing comment, a la our master of subtlety Mr. CM, is wasting plenty of your own time on something that will have no effect on you. So the more you type and quote and argue, the more of an a$$ you look like.
 
#31 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor /forum/post/13894382


So you will believe what ever a company tells/sells you?

belief is not a component of my thought process regarding audio performance.


i listen.


i really don't care why something is suppose to work. i'm not qualified to judge the science of audio designs. yes; i guess i have a some level of technical sense and common sense. there are things that are so counter-intualtive or non-sensical that i don't bother with them. even then, if something is free or costs almost nothing then i may try it just cuz. when there is considerable investment in time or money then the ante is raised on what i level of comfort i require.


i do some things because i think it might actuially contribute some positive effect, although i have never heard evidence that it does.....as long as it is cheap.


but i will listen first......if i like what i hear i will consider further. maybe i may be comfortable with the explaination and maybe not. but sometimes high performance products work for reasons either the maker does not understand or does not want to reveal.


in this case my friend Andrew brought over these Tourmaline cloth sleeves and a hair dryer. i thought 'no way' and assumed it was nothing.


and it was magic.


sometimes you just need to be open to things.......
 
#33 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman /forum/post/13894478


So the more you type and quote and argue, the more of an a$$ you look like.

QED.
 
#35 ·
Following up on the question by grellberg is my lack of understanding about tourmaline hair blowers and the quality or lack thereof.Posting this from ML's thread on audiogon it seems someone has tried using other than that described by ML's friend...Here is what was said by ML over there

a word of caution; the degree of effect from an off-the-shelf Tourmaline hair dryer is marginal.....i've removed the diffuser full of Tourmaline balls and tried it. there is some positive affect but more like previous tweak levels, not this one. that said, i'd love to hear your reaction when you try it.



I guess I just need to be educated on the differences in hair dryers and why Mike felt one to be superior over another
 
#36 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by grellberg /forum/post/13894700


Mike,


Thought I'd try for a third time:

Have you tried just an inexpensive Revlon or the like by itself?

sorry Mike.


yes, i have tried the one i use which is a Revlon, by itself, without the Tourmaline ball filled diffuser. You do get some effect but it's maybe equal to the de-mag level of effect by itself. to be honest i have not spent enough time with it to be able to clearly quantitate how it works. i did not continue to investigate because it was clearly not in the realm of the ball filled diffuser.


here's a posted response to me on my audiogon thread which may give more info;

Quote:
Hey Mike... I ordered my hair dryer last year from Germany after doing research re. Tourmaline based hair dryers when they became the rage several years ago. This one has the highest output of negative ions and is internally constructed with ceramic parts (not thermal plastic which was stated to be a detriment to the ionization process). It also produces heat via infra-red heating elements which again is theorized to maximize negative ion production. The diffuser has woven through it a 36" strand of pink and green Tourmaline small pebble-sized balls (my wife is a gem and mineral collector... mostly the large quartz formations, but has many strands collected over the years of various minerals and gemstones... 36" strands are typically how they are sold in this form). Not sure she'll let me keep them in the diffuser... may have to order my own.


I'll report back and will try to get some listeners together in the next couple of days.
 
#37 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine /forum/post/13894275


I have never seen such pure unadulterated ****e since I last used a speculum.


This BS is a major contributory factor to so many audio geeks are destined to live in a state of perpetual virginity. I suppose it gives some people a break from their Lord of the Rings dolls.


I suggest less effort laying cable elevators and a bit more effort laying some pipe.


All IMHO, of course.

Mike -


thanks for letting us know about the tweak. When I first read this I thought someone had found your handle and posted this as a joke as it seemed somewhat ridiculous. Having followed your system and its many iterations over on Audiogon I know you're extremely commited and serious about your sound and I'm sure some of that Lagavullin liquid courage was nearby when you posted this here but believe you that this is the real deal. Like Steve B I've got less patience and interest with tweaking these days although I've done most of them but have been really surprised at the lack of open minds to this stuff and insistence that you have to have to make a locktight legal argument with empirical proof and published papers or it can't possibly be efficacious.


BTW, I nominate the above as the funniest post on this forum ever
 
#38 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by grellberg /forum/post/13893794


NIN, do you own or listen through a system with high end gear-as in 20k plus? If not, please do not pooh pooh ideas and opinions of others that do.

If you bought and tried ML's tweak on your familiar high end system then do please add your valued experience.


I own and use a system that is better (more transparent) than most so called high-end system (that is just really a high distorting, expensive, junk that lives on advertising and "labels").


Mike can do the same blindtest he did with the speakercables and we will see.
 
#39 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by NIN74 /forum/post/13895597


I own and use a system that is better (more transparent) than most so called high-end system (that is just really a high distorting, expensive, junk that lives on advertising and "labels").

And what system is that?
 
#40 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by NIN74 /forum/post/13895597


I own and use a system that is better (more transparent) than most so called high-end system (that is just really a high distorting, expensive, junk that lives on advertising and "labels").


Mike can do the same blindtest he did with the speakercables and we will see.

If you think your system is so superior why don't you post it in your public profile.
 
#42 ·
I love you guys of the Flat Earth Society. The Earth was the center of the Universe, and Copernicus was mocked for theorizing that the Earth orbited around the Sun. Guess what we now know that it does. Open minded scientists will tell you that now the more we know, we know there's more we don't know.

Maybe ionization interferes with optical lasers reading physical pits on round discs, even though we haven't measured such an effect yet. Maybe some day we will measure it. In the meantime Copernicus reached his theory through observation. Maybe Mike's onto something. Who knows. Regards, Norm
 
#43 ·
I would be more impressed with the fact that science have for a LONG time knowed that the earth was not flat, but other form of religious people (much alike many audiophiles today) did'nt like that and said the earth was flat.
 
#45 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 /forum/post/13895752


I love you guys of the Flat Earth Society. The Earth was the center of the Universe, and Copernicus was mocked for theorizing that the Earth orbited around the Sun. Guess what we now know that it does. Open minded scientists will tell you that now the more we know, we know there's more we don't know.

Maybe ionization interferes with optical lasers reading physical pits on round discs, even though we haven't measured such an effect yet. Maybe some day we will measure it. In the meantime Copernicus reached his theory through observation. Maybe Mike's onto something. Who knows. Regards, Norm

The Copernicus analogy is not a valid one. No one is being closed minded at all. The most basic understanding of the data structure involved and how it is checked, handled and transmitted would enable anyone to realize that, whilst the data is digital, these ideas are Neanderthal at best. The correlation between the effect on a binary signals data errors and actual quantitative sound quality is absolutely zero.
 
#49 ·
Maybe it would be more effective to use the air dryer on the audiophile since negative ions (shower effect) are known to improve mood and alertness, and positive ions are known mood depressants. Maybe a nasal canula feeding a stream of negative ions to the nose during listening. That would be really zippy.

A lot of these tweaks that claim ionization and magnetics are "barometric" tweaks. Barometrics will definitely change sound. Air can change heat, humidity, pressure, ionization and charging tendencies. These will potently effect the transmission characteristics of sound as well as the mood and receptiveness of the audiophile. They can also effect buildup of static charges on vinyl records and adversely effect electronics.

Ionization and static charges can definitely contribute to bad sound, that has been known for a long time. Magnetization is somewhat more dubious. Minor tweak effects aimed at barometrics will be as consistent as, well, like the weather. On a stereophile blog, a guy did a calculation on what would be necessary for a demagnetizer to actually have an effect on the magnetic particles in vinyl, and he found out of bounds that the effect could actually be magnetic. If you think magnetics effects vinyl playback, just run the cartridge over the record without the needle touching and hear if any eddy currents are audible. It is likely that if the demagnetizer is effective in some way, it is probably more by reducing surface contamination with dust and electrostatics than actual magnetic effects.

A lot of tweaks have to do with the audiophile i.e. the obsessive compulsive need to ritualize the listening experience with a sense that it can be controlled by engaging in certain rites. In fact the "audiophile tweak" can be very potent, either through placebo effect or by altering the sensorium of the audiophile. Try different odors while listening, you will get a different synthesesia effect that will alter what you perceive while listening. The blast from the past with blue lights works pretty well, as well as the old psychedelic light show. The somersault tweak works really well, as does the running up and down stairs tweak. I guarantee that after you do somersaults from one end of your house to the other and back to the listening room, you will experience sound completely differently. A lot of audiophile tweaks are "flash" tweaks akin to going from a brightly lit room to a dark room and not being able to see. However, just wait, after a while you will be able to see in the dark room, too, because your vision will accommodate. A lot of cable tweaks are "flash" tweaks. However, within the zone of psycho acoustic accommodation, they probably don't really mean a lot because after accommodation, you will pretty much be getting the same amount of information at the same general level of perception. Flash a system with silver cable and suddenly, it is bright and clear. Flash back to a copper cable, and suddenly it is smooth and warm. After a few minutes of psycho acoustic accommodating with either, it probably doesn't make much of a difference most of the time. However, with a phono cable, it could be an important form of equalization because the signal so sensitive at that level.

I prefer to stick with the tweaks that effect the front end electronics in a way that provide a lasting and meaningful improvement that doesn't require an excess of unnecessary ritualization and aren't "flash" tweaks dependent on a temporary distortion of psycho acoustics. I am already a major tube wrangler by default and that addresses my OC disorder quite enough, thank you. In medicine, the placebo effect is known to be quite powerful and isn't to be taken lightly in dealing with patients subjectively. I don't really make a point of disrespecting somebody else's tweak, but the world is full of advice on how I should do things. Some I have the time to explore, some I don't, most of the time I would rather just listen to the music.
 
#51 ·
cjfrbw,


thanks for your detailed, thoughful, and mild toned post. i think we agree on the environmental contribution to the listening experience. i freely admit that how i feel is much about my comfort zone on lots of levels.


my enthusiasm for this tweak has to do with the 'in-your-face' high degree of effect compared to tweaks i have previously tried. it goes beyond the subtle.


anyway thanks for the feedback.


Mike
 
#52 ·
I don't have any good pictures yet, just got the system and will have mr Öhman here within 3 week to work on the acoustics, so until then it will do like it is now, as it already sounds AMAZINGLY good.






 
#53 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine /forum/post/13895804


The Copernicus analogy is not a valid one. No one is being closed minded at all. The most basic understanding of the data structure involved and how it is checked, handled and transmitted would enable anyone to realize that, whilst the data is digital, these ideas are Neanderthal at best. The correlation between the effect on a binary signals data errors and actual sound quality is absolutely zero.

CM, from the little I've read this is not true-especially since you added "transmitted" which would include jitter.


I'd say the more appropriate analogy is to Pasteur. Very hard to imagine germs if you don't have a microscope.


IMO a good high end system is like a microscope, and can exhibit differences based on all sorts of tweaks. I get frustrated when people who don't own microscopes, have never seen a microscope, don't understand how a microscope might work, go onto the "expensive microscope" forums and discuss how the people with microscopes are wrong and that germs don't exist, and BTW, they paid too much for their microscope as well.
 
#55 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by grellberg /forum/post/13896296


CM, from the little I've read this is not true-especially since you added "transmitted" which would include jitter.


I'd say the more appropriate analogy is to Pasteur. Very hard to imagine germs if you don't have a microscope.


IMO a good high end system is like a microscope, and can exhibit differences based on all sorts of tweaks. I get frustrated when people who don't own microscopes, have never seen a microscope, don't understand how a microscope might work, go onto the "expensive microscope" forums and discuss how the people with microscopes are wrong and that germs don't exist, and BTW, they paid too much for their microscope as well.

I understand you bringing up jitter.


Jitter could be heard especially with 1 Bit DACs, as a pitch change. Jitter is a clock error and thus is symptomatic a system in a state of error. Many jitter issues were as a result of the timing being taken from the audio data slot transitions rather than the preamble transition, hence the re-clocking solutions ability to correct this.


The crux of my being in this thread was the assertion that the data "lift" could actually influence the sound.
 
#57 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by grellberg /forum/post/13896296


CM, from the little I've read this is not true-especially since you added "transmitted" which would include jitter.


I'd say the more appropriate analogy is to Pasteur. Very hard to imagine germs if you don't have a microscope.


IMO a good high end system is like a microscope, and can exhibit differences based on all sorts of tweaks. I get frustrated when people who don't own microscopes, have never seen a microscope, don't understand how a microscope might work, go onto the "expensive microscope" forums and discuss how the people with microscopes are wrong and that germs don't exist, and BTW, they paid too much for their microscope as well.

I pass the Analogy Crown to Mr. Grellberg, with honors. Norm
 
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