Nordost released the Quantum QX2 & QX4 Power Purification Device - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 558 Old 06-07-2008, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

Thank you for bringing the average intelligence of the thread down. Nice contribution.

You are welcome. My pleasure.
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post #92 of 558 Old 06-07-2008, 09:38 PM
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God forbid one would listen and make a determination, eh?

Oh, but how one listens makes or breaks the outcome and its value.
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post #93 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

Trying is not buying. I'm trying the unit out in the next week or two depending when it gets delivered.

No one should buy anything that does absolutely nothing for you. That's just stupid.


The problem is that it takes time, time one could use to see a couple of movies or listen to some records or maybe even fix the room for even better sound. So one of the problem is "why try stuff that cannot possible work?"

The other is, I would guess you will do the test openly, and with that all the problems with placebo can occur. So if one really want to do a serious test, one have to do a DBT and that takes time. Time already wasted on a thing that cannot work.

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post #94 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 01:31 AM
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Heisenberg was here .... maybe ....
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post #95 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 06:11 AM
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Please do not read this as being harsh (not intended as such). But what evidence do you have to support your point of view? Have you even touched the device or ran any type of tests?

Jim, I now intend to be a bit harsh. I don't want to think you are being deliberately obtuse, but you're making it hard. I don't have to see the device, touch it, or anything of that sort to know they are peddling it in a fraudulent way. I can read the "inventor's" own words about it. Their "explanations" alone are all the evidence anyone needs to conclude they are deluded or dishonest. Why in the world should I give a device a chance that is being sold using a string of lies?
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You have a feeling and think it is B.S.

No. I know without a doubt that the explanations offered by the inventor are complete unmitigated ********. I am CERTAIN of it. I have seen more convincing-sounding explanations about how the Star Trek transporter works.

Look, we're not talking about respectable disagreement on issues of relatively common audio or engineering principles: tube versus solid state, negative feedback, and the like. Nor for that matter are we talking about someone bringing into play physical principles that I, ehlarson, and/or Morbius have no experience with. The explanations given are both self-contradictory and demonstrate a misapplication of the most basic and fundamental principles of the science they claim to be using.

I'll give you one example: the claim that "Within a few minutes, all of the electrons in your home will exhibit the coherent behavior of the electrons in the Symphony's circuitry." I'll be gracious and assume they are simply talking about the electrons in your electrical circuits, because frankly I don't want some random device plugged into my wall affecting the electrons circling the atoms in my own body. Even so, this statement alone is absolutely ridiculous, because quantum mechanical principles operate on sub-microscopic levels, not at distances of meters or even millimeters. There is some work in the area of quantum entanglement, but the success that scientists have had in exploiting this principle is limited to certain areas of quantum computation and small quantum teleportation experiments. That's why what ehlarson said about multiple Nobel Prizes is not entirely inappropriate: what they are proposing is well beyond what the best known science achieves.

But even if you insist on being gracious to a fault, their internal contradictions alone ought to cause skepticism. Again, if a single Symphony device is sufficient to render the electrons in your entire house coherent, what benefit is there in using more than one?
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Maybe it is. I do not know... yet. But I at least will try it out.

I no longer consider that admirable, given that you're ignoring the evidence that you already have available to you. As I've said before, it is certainly possible that the device does something, but it certainly does not do what they claim, and that ought to be troubling.

Michael
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post #96 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 08:08 AM
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I wonder how a device like this affects people like Ob's opinion of Nordost now? Wasn't he one of the biggest fans of their wiring products?

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post #97 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

I can appreciate your experience as a fellow engineer. However, even when designing circuit boards, amplifiers whether it's tubes or semi-conductors how often does your work involve manipulating electrons other than a difference of potential? I'm not talking about crystals, radio transmission that would be considered fundamentals. For instance, do you have background in MRI technology? MRI is based on the magnetic properties of hydrogen in water (in our bodies). Water is a conductor. Is it too far fetched to believe that a similiar application could impact electron behaviour in a power type device?

I am in no way saying that is what is happening in this device. But since I come from the Medical Field I at least find it interesting and possibly plausable. But again, I'll have to wait to see it for myself.

I do not design circuit boards or amplifiers. My work and training extends to a much more fundamental level requiring a strong understanding of applied physics, physical chemistry and mathematics.

You mentioned MRI technology - MRI is based on NMR, nuclear magnetic resonance. I have personally operated NMR equipment as part of my research. I am quite familiar with the theoretical basis for the technology and its practical applications, one of which is MRI.

To begin with NMR generally requires large superconducting magnets (and the cryogenic systems needed for these magnets to reach superconductivity) and the apparatus is normally quite large physically. It generally would fill the kitchen of an average house. Or more.

Here is picture of an research grade NMR magnet found on Wikpedia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...WB-NMRv900.jpg

The equipment, depending on what sort of resolution you need costs a significant fraction of a million dollars to several million, not $299. Finally the primary principle of operation is alignment of nuclear spins by use of high strength magnetic fields, excited by RF radiation. This has safety implications; you would not want this operating in your home.

http://www.chem.ucsb.edu/~nmr/Safety.html

I would be quite amazed if you could power such a system with a wall-wart.

And by the way, water is not a conductor. For water to conduct electricity it must contain a dissolved electrolyte.

I stand by my previous statement. The inventors of a device as described would fully qualify for one or more Nobel Prizes if the device they are selling can actually perform as described.

"Nature Abhors a Vacuum Tube" -  J. R. Pierce
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post #98 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 08:15 AM
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By jove, I think I've got it. Before QX 4:



After QX4:


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post #99 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

I can appreciate your experience as a fellow engineer. However, even when designing circuit boards, amplifiers whether it's tubes or semi-conductors how often does your work involve manipulating electrons other than a difference of potential? I'm not talking about crystals, radio transmission that would be considered fundamentals. For instance, do you have background in MRI technology? MRI is based on the magnetic properties of hydrogen in water (in our bodies). Water is a conductor. Is it too far fetched to believe that a similiar application could impact electron behaviour in a power type device?

I am in no way saying that is what is happening in this device. But since I come from the Medical Field I at least find it interesting and possibly plausable. But again, I'll have to wait to see it for myself.

Then perhaps you could explain to us what "field stabilization" means in a NMR or MRI unit, and why it is important, as well as how that relates to the "electromagnetic stabilization" offered in this unit and why it's important to consumer A/V systems.
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post #100 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 01:23 PM
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A. If i make something that does something and i want it accepted in the realms of science or engineering, i must offer some sort of PROOF this is something that can stand up to scrutiny, and is based in known science, or demonstrates how i have moved into unknown science. Odds are good that if i have moved into unknown science, the honorary doctorates, Nobel prizes and mucho riches are about to follow.

B. if i come up with some thing that a bunch of people manage to believe that it does something with no proof or test controls applied, well then it will not be accepted as science as it is not. to claim it is is the most audacious bold faced lie.

C. if i still want to sell, it, then i must push it in the High end audio market since proof is a vulgar obscenity in this area.

D. Observation is fine, it is the cornerstone of all science. but it must be then backed up. and that is not for the consumer to have to do. it is for the maker to either explain what it does which they have clearly not done, or show proof that it works, which they have also not done.


To throw pseudo made up crap around as if it makes sense is an insult to all intelligent adults.

And if you are STUPID enough to believe a trade show demo... then you and forrest Gump need to go have a meeting of the minds. virtually NO demo at ANY trade show is ever as plain as it seems. I remember seeing a demo years ago from DP when they were first pushing some of their machines. it looked spectacular. then when we asked the source... turned out we were looking at Digital Betacam... in PAL. Duh! no wonder it looked great.


So in this case, the only thing dumber than this waste of bandwidth thread, is continually asking Jim how he is going to test it, and what controls will be applied. If Jim feels that it does something, then he is either going to do another test to try to remove bias to see if it actually does anything, or he will blindly and foolishly believe that he can trust his ears and start selling these things.

Nothing personal Jim, but this is how it looks from my vantage point.

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post #101 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 01:29 PM
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I'd settle just for something that superficially makes some sense!

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post #102 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

So in this case, the only thing dumber than this waste of bandwidth thread, is continually asking Jim how he is going to test it, and what controls will be applied. If Jim feels that it does something, then he is either going to do another test to try to remove bias to see if it actually does anything, or he will blindly and foolishly believe that he can trust his ears and start selling these things.

*clap clap clap*

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post #103 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 02:51 PM
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i am not sure what is more annoying;

the "i saw a demo and it was AWESOME!!!!, made the sound before seem shrill and harsh!" crowd

or

the "please explain in chapter and verse the protocols used to test and how at a sub atomic level it works!" crowd

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post #104 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 02:57 PM
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If Jim feels that it does something, then he is either going to do another test to try to remove bias to see if it actually does anything, or he will blindly and foolishly believe that he can trust his ears and start selling these things.

Well, I sure hope it's not the latter. If he sells them he cannot in good conscience pass along their marketing literature.

Michael
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post #105 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

i am not sure what is more annoying;

the "i saw a demo and it was AWESOME!!!!, made the sound before seem shrill and harsh!" crowd

or

the "please explain in chapter and verse the protocols used to test and how at a sub atomic level it works!" crowd

IMO, the "please explain in chapter and verse the protocols used to test and how at a sub atomic level it works!" crowd is the most annoying. There is little that is sadder on these fora than watching people use a tool of knowledge as a weapon to browbeat another human being.

The other groups are just naive and for the most part harmless, but the "please explain in chapter and verse the protocols used to test and how at a sub atomic level it works!" crowd should know better and are proof of how the tree of knowledge is rotten fruit in some hands...

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post #106 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 04:57 PM
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Boo hoo hoo. Look, I don't really care if they choose not to explain how it works down to the subatomic level. But to whatever extent they choose to explain it, I expect them not to lie.

If this community would just express even a fraction of genuine outrage about that, it would stop. But I guess you'd much rather whine when we point it out.

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post #107 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

Boo hoo hoo. Look, I don't really care if they choose not to explain how it works down to the subatomic level. But to whatever extent they choose to do so, I expect them not to lie.

If this community would just express even a fraction of genuine outrage about that, it would stop. But I guess you'd much rather whine when we point it out.

I wasn't referring to you. You are one of the more reasonable people who goes out of his way to be gentle and explain things.

I certainly am outraged... I was ripped off myself... I wish someone would start a class action lawsuit and make what they do illegal. It really upsets me that people can profit from blatantly lying. I felt ripped off, abused and taken advantage of when I plugged those cables in and heard no difference. I was also embarrassed.

What bothers me is that the people I referred to in my previous post generally assault the people who believe the advertising, and they tend to do so in an aggresive and sometimes vicious way instead of doing something truly constructive, such as attacking the company itself legally.

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post #108 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 05:19 PM
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Thanks for giving me a pass You know, what would REALLY help if these reviewers would apply a little due diligence when they encounter this pseudoscientific bunkum. I mean I just don't see anyone outside of Audioholics even questioning this stuff. And claims not to understand the stuff don't fly with me. If they don't understand it they shouldn't print it! They can still conduct the review without it.

As for attacking the company legally---you know, I really have been angry enough about this particular instance (as well as MachinaDynamica) that I have wondered just what I could do. I admit to being ignorant on that score. I wish there was some lawyer out there who liked filing claims with the FTC (would that be right) in his spare time. You know, a jilted audiophile with a J.D.

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post #109 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

Thanks for giving me a pass You know, what would REALLY help if these reviewers would apply a little due diligence when they encounter this pseudoscientific bunkum. I mean I just don't see anyone outside of Audioholics even questioning this stuff. And claims not to understand the stuff don't fly with me. If they don't understand it they shouldn't print it! They can still conduct the review without it.

As for attacking the company legally---you know, I really have been angry enough about this particular instance (as well as MachinaDynamica) that I have wondered just what I could do. I admit to being ignorant on that score. I wish there was some lawyer out there who liked filing claims with the FTC (would that be right) in his spare time. You know, a jilted audiophile with a J.D.

One thing we can do, and I admit I don't have the technical background in electrical engineering to write that part of it, is set up a petition on something like www.care2.com and see how many people we can rally to sign it. We can also set up a similar e-mail campaign to have people sign names to e-mails that can be sent to different consumer boards, political entities, and any other organizations that might be able to do something about it. The more people you can get to rattle about it, the more chance of getting some government organization to do something about it.

One thing is for certain, the kind of things that have been done previously on these fora only seem to perpetuate the same conflicts over and over again with no resolution. If we can rally enough people, and if it can be shown that there is no science behind it and that they are taking advantage of people, then government oversight would eventually have to be a necessity I think. Part of the problem is, no one has done anything like this before I think...

I'd be more than happy to use my account to post it as well as help with the consumer protection portion of the petition, if someone would write a technical portion.

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post #110 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 07:00 PM
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Hmm, that sounds intriguing, I could help with this. My only concern is that this is, frankly, a fringe issue. Not even Monster peddles this kind of false science (though they do have their own deceptive marketing practices, no doubt). So the likelihood of achieving a critical mass of supporters to spur government action seems small. That's why I thought that perhaps a legal fund of some sort to pay for formal government complaints might be a better route.

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post #111 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

Jim: if resident physicist Morbius chimes in and doesn't agree with me that it's ********, I will donate $100 to your favorite charity on the spot.

Michael,

You can keep your $100.

You are correct - it is 100% pure unadulterated B.S.

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post #112 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 07:29 PM
 
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As for attacking the company legally---you know, I really have been angry enough about this particular instance (as well as MachinaDynamica) that I have wondered just what I could do. I admit to being ignorant on that score. I wish there was some lawyer out there who liked filing claims with the FTC (would that be right) in his spare time. You know, a jilted audiophile with a J.D.

why not solicit the owner of Blue Jeans Cable

Interesting to me how an attorney is the owner of this cable company. Maybe Michael, Que and all of you guys here should ask an attorney if he is preaching BS as you all claim. In fact he recently took on the likes of Monster Cable. Would be interesting to see where he stands on the issue of false advertising
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post #113 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 07:33 PM
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OB, that's a splendid idea. I wonder if Kurt would be interested. That could be fun. From the BJC "about us" page:
Quote:


We will always tell the truth about audio and video cabling; we will not make up new principles of physics to explain how our cables do something cables just don't do, or claim that exotic materials or processes give our cable unique and bizarre electrical properties. We want to sell cable the way engineers buy cable--on the basis of real, verifiable, measurable performance.

My kind of guy.

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post #114 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 07:54 PM
 
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OB, that's a splendid idea. I wonder if Kurt would be interested. That could be fun. From the BJC "about us" page:My kind of guy.

well a simple question would be "do your cables sound different from Opus , Nordost etc or do they sound the same? Oh and maybe ask him if there is no difference why does he make different variety cables??
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post #115 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by oneobgyn View Post

Oh and maybe ask him if there is no difference why does he make different variety cables??


So does Belden.
I've purchased cables from Blue J, although I usually fabricate mine to custom lengths. You can specify the cable, connectors, and length. They are professionally terminated, and not much more expensive than DIY once labor is factored in. Frankly, cables should be chosen for the application, and Blue J makes that easy.
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post #116 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by oneobgyn View Post

? Oh and maybe ask him if there is no difference why does he make different variety cables??

Simple as to why, different cable is needed for different apps. Like maybe I would like a cable with a thick jacket to protect from being cut easy. Or maybe I just need a thin jacket cable to run in small spaces etc..
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post #117 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 08:50 PM
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post #118 of 558 Old 06-08-2008, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by speco2003 View Post

Simple as to why, different cable is needed for different apps. Like maybe I would like a cable with a thick jacket to protect from being cut easy. Or maybe I just need a thin jacket cable to run in small spaces etc..

Different gauge for different needs, different terminations for different requirements, etc. Also, nothing wrong with charging a little extra for cables that make for better audio jewellery (although I don't know if they have those options).

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post #119 of 558 Old 06-09-2008, 04:36 AM
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Nordost's claims with respect to video, if verifiable, would seem to have far greater utility in the advancement in various scientific fields such as nuclear imaging, spy satellites, the Hubble, surveillance, and transmitting images from various space and planetary probes, no? Why would a company simply limit themselves to such a small subset as the A/V community when there are far greater profits and benefits elsewhere?

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post #120 of 558 Old 06-09-2008, 05:43 AM
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well a simple question would be "do your cables sound different from Opus , Nordost etc or do they sound the same? Oh and maybe ask him if there is no difference why does he make different variety cables??

Oops, I thought you were trying to be helpful more so than provocative! I guess not. Well, you were still helpful by suggesting him.

Michael
Michael Grant is offline  
Reply Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

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