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post #361 of 619 Old 09-12-2008, 10:18 AM
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"I remember that years back before Theta had Dolby EX processing and DTS 24/96, many Lexicon owners took aim at the company for that."

I doubt it for DTS 24/96, most Lexicon owners have considered that a joke from the get go. Dolby EX of course works on any sound track to extract a back channel. Ditto DPLIIx.

"Having the same sort of thing defended now in reverse, using market percentage to defend obsolence, is I must admit enjoyable"

What is even more enjoyable is the guy that has 0.0 channels of 96/24 into his processor trying to put down 6 channels of 96/24 in.

BTW, I'm not saying support for 7.1 over HDMI wouldn't be nice in the Lex. Just not the end of the world since there isn't much material in that format and because the Lexicon can do unique things with a 5.1 soundtrack that no other processor can do.

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post #362 of 619 Old 09-12-2008, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

I remember that years back before Theta had Dolby EX processing and DTS 24/96, many Lexicon owners took aim at the company for that.

Nope. Years back in a discussion about timely upgrades, it was pointed out that Theta took 6 years to deliver EX decoding. Had less to do with the lack of the feature than the time taken to engineer its implementation. In that context, the next Lex will have discrete 7.1 input, delivered within months of Theta having the same feature, not half a decade later.
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Some companies, Theta, Proceed, and Cal Audio, position was that 5.1 was what was in the vast majority of homes, something like 97% at the time according to the data that one company gave me. Hence there was not a need for support for beyond 5.1 and Dolby Ex. In fact, to this day the percentage of Dolby EX titles is not high but it's standard now on pre-pros and AV recievers.

What those companies told you still holds true: very few people use more than 5.1 speakers, EX soundtracks are a tiny percentage (roughly 18 titles per year) of total movies released annually, and even now there is "not a need" to go beyond 5.1.

It is important that you're separating features that are 'needed' (e.g., DD decoding) versus features that are not (e.g., EX decoding), since that was my point about 7.1 input vs 5.1 input. Nice feature to have and one I will welcome, but not the end-all/be-all you make it out to be.

BTW, as you already know EX is standard on pre-pros and receivers because it comes built into decoding chips, just as 7.1 input is built into newer chips. So it's not a matter of if, just a matter of when all manufacturers will have 7.1 input as standard.
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Once I heard 7.1 discrete, I LOVED it.

I feel the same, but for 7.1 in general. Keep in mind that Lex started selling 7-ch pre-pros 6 years before there was any discrete 5.1 material available and a full 11 years before Dolby introduced EX in order to go beyond 5.1 speakers. While I can understand your excitment about 7.1-channel soundtracks, it's not as big a deal for me since I've been listening to movies in 7.1 for over 15 years.

Sanjay

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post #363 of 619 Old 09-12-2008, 12:01 PM
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I have my Casablanca III in a system with 8.1 capacity, including side speakers and a center surround. I have obviously no way of accessing 7.1 discrete sources and 6.1 discrete sources are not that common.

Part of the reason that I added speakers was in anticipation of new source material. Another factor was the shape of my room. The optimal placement of the surround speakers in a 5.1 setup would place one in front of an exterior door and another in the entryway to the room.

In any event I am very pleased with Theta's proprietary steering software that derives the additional channels with 5.1 material. I am often blown away with the sound of over-the-air television shows that are in DD. I am sure that my system will sound even better when I get the upgrade and play BR program material with discrete 7.1.

A lot of movie titles don't have much surround channel involvement (e.g., dramas with a lot of talking) and so it likely doesn't matter much how they are mixed. The occasional blockbuster action film must sound amazing in the new higher definition sound formats when properly accessed.

Steve
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post #364 of 619 Old 09-12-2008, 12:42 PM
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I've been thinking of getting a used Casablanca for quite a while now, but the HDMI situation has held me off.
But now, with the upcoming HDMI-upgrade, it seems the time is right..

But I understand it takes a CB III to get the upgrade, CB I and CB II needs to be upgraded to latest specs first..right..?

So, what would it cost to upgrade an old, used CB I or CB II to a CB III HDMI-machine..? Extreme dac's for the front-channels, Premium for the other channels..??

Thanks,
CH
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post #365 of 619 Old 09-12-2008, 12:49 PM
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"But now, with the upcoming HDMI-upgrade, it seems the time is right.."

Wait till it is delivered. The HDMI upgrade has been 'upcoming' since 2006.

Shawn
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post #366 of 619 Old 09-12-2008, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHA View Post

I've been thinking of getting a used Casablanca for quite a while now, but the HDMI situation has held me off.
But now, with the upcoming HDMI-upgrade, it seems the time is right..

But I understand it takes a CB III to get the upgrade, CB I and CB II needs to be upgraded to latest specs first..right..?

Thanks,
CH

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

Wait till it is delivered. The HDMI upgrade has be 'upcoming' since 2006.

Shawn

Not bad advice really but I'm more confident of it happening today then I was a very short time ago.

And yes, a CBI or CBII must be upgraded to a CBIII before HDMI can be added. I figure it's still well worthwhile going that direction.

At any rate, I'll have a CBI for sale myself, as soon as that upgrade to my CBIII is done. PM me if you're interested in waiting that long to get one.

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post #367 of 619 Old 09-12-2008, 01:16 PM
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"Not bad advice really but I'm more confident of it happening today then I was a very short time ago."

So am I. But still things can change so if HDMI is a must have feature I'd hold off till it is delivered. Buying something based on what it might do instead of what it does is a good way to get burned.

Shawn
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post #368 of 619 Old 09-12-2008, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

"Not bad advice really but I'm more confident of it happening today then I was a very short time ago."

So am I. But still things can change so if HDMI is a must have feature I'd hold off till it is delivered. Buying something based on what it might do instead of what it does is a good way to get burned.

Shawn

Hence my offer to sell him a used blanca "after" HDMI becomes available.
No chance for him to get burned that way, is there?

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post #369 of 619 Old 09-12-2008, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbrother52 View Post

Hence my offer to sell him a used blanca "after" HDMI becomes available.
No chance for him to get burned that way, is there?

Yup. Btw, I have a used CBII for sale now but you need either one of the Xtreme, Superior II or Premium DACs for the HDMI upgrade...
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post #370 of 619 Old 09-12-2008, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mccaff View Post

I am often blown away with the sound of over-the-air television shows that are in DD.

Steve,

How is your 8.1 benefit the DD from OTA material?
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post #371 of 619 Old 09-12-2008, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hlkc View Post

Steve,

How is your 8.1 benefit the DD from OTA material?

HUH?

I have a 5.1 system. Four Aerial 9s. One Aerial CC5. Three Aerial SW12 subwoofers, with the first one chained to the 2nd which is chained to the third.

So I haven't played with 7.1 or 8.1. Ask Bulldogger about that.

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #372 of 619 Old 09-12-2008, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hlkc View Post

Steve,

How is your 8.1 benefit the DD from OTA material?

Hard to precisely pinpoint. I have not done AB testing with and without. However, since adding the side speakers I do find some ambient sounds which seem to be localized at one side or another from time to time. I know that all that is involved is some kind of pro-logic style steering, but it seems to be well done.

It may also be the case that sound engineers are paying more attention to the possibilities inherent in the DD format now that HDTV's are becoming more prevalent.
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post #373 of 619 Old 09-12-2008, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

HUH?

I have a 5.1 system. Four Aerial 9s. One Aerial CC5. Three Aerial SW12 subwoofers, with the first one chained to the 2nd which is chained to the third.

So I haven't played with 7.1 or 8.1. Ask Bulldogger about that.

Thanks. I was asking mcaff and his name is Steve too.
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post #374 of 619 Old 09-12-2008, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by mccaff View Post

I have obviously no way of accessing 7.1 discrete sources and 6.1 discrete sources are not that common.

Doesn't matter. Your pre-pro does a good job of scaling the number of channels in the source to the number of speakers in your set-up. This will remain useful even after you get access to discrete 7.1 sources, since the majority of what you listen to will still be 5.1 material.
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I am very pleased with Theta's proprietary steering software that derives the additional channels with 5.1 material.

Actually, it's not proprietary to Theta, but licensed from companies like SRS Labs (Circle Surround II), DTS (ES & Neo:6), and Dolby Labs (EX & PLII/PLIIx).

Sanjay

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post #375 of 619 Old 09-12-2008, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hlkc View Post

Thanks for your share Bulldogger. I have a big room and I have been using my 9.8 7.1 about a year now. I am thinking to upgrade my rear Superior II DAC to Premium DAC in order to do 7.1 in my CBIII. Since I am sending back to factory for HDMI upgrade, I am definitely thinking to do that now.

Anyone want a Superior II DAC, please PM me. Maybe we can send both to a dealer when we send it in for this upgrade and they can swap it for us

We need a 5.1 to 7.1 Match Group. They would be very compatable. 5.1 boys pay for a premium DAC for the 7.1 boys and get a Superior II in return. Just a thought. Regards, Norm
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post #376 of 619 Old 09-12-2008, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Doesn't matter. Your pre-pro does a good job of scaling the number of channels in the source to the number of speakers in your set-up. This will remain useful even after you get access to discrete 7.1 sources, since the majority of what you listen to will still be 5.1 material. Actually, it's not proprietary to Theta, but licensed from companies like SRS Labs (Circle Surround II), DTS (ES & Neo:6), and Dolby Labs (EX & PLII/PLIIx).

Sanjay

Theta modified their decoding after it received its approval. They were not happy with the performance of the vanilla spec. Little known fact.
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post #377 of 619 Old 09-12-2008, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

Theta modified their decoding after it received its approval. They were not happy with the performance of the vanilla spec. Little known fact.

Not an all that little known of a fact, I'm almost certain that you've mentioned it before.
And while some my not believe it to be true, I do! Pretty sure I remember something negitive being said about it your last time around with it.

Little know facts get thrown around here all the time and people choose to believe them or not.
For instance back in May of 07 I had 2 bits of info, some people chose not to believe, or perhaps they were just wishing for more or something different but as it turns out, what I was told turned out to be so.
Not that it was any big deal or anything.

I said back then,
"Theta will NOT start building video scalers into their video cards. Their leaving that to the companies that already make video their business.
As per John B."
And nope, we're not getting a scaler.

But my all time favorite diss with a bit of info known to now be true was....

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Originally Posted by bigbrother52 View Post

According to my source at Theta, should I say old source (he left awhile ago),
he told me that they'd never do a CBIV as that number in Asian countries is like 13 in the US and considered to be unlucky!
bigbro

To which a reply was

Quote:
Originally Posted by euryd View Post

Oh my, that must make life tough. I guess they would also not buy computers with a quad core processor or drive autos with 4 wheels.

OK, so he added the smiley
I just find it's difficult to tell people stuff that may not be common knowledge, especially having no way to back up an interesting tidbit such as yours.

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post #378 of 619 Old 09-12-2008, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbrother52 View Post

I just find it's difficult to tell people stuff that may not be common knowledge, especially having no way to back up an interesting tidbit such as yours.

Just ask Neil. I'm sure he'll spill the beans now that he sold the company. That is if you can get him to a phone in Hawaii.

The change in decoding was told to me when I bought my first Theta piece-Casanova (when it had the green/yellow display).
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post #379 of 619 Old 09-12-2008, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

Just ask Neil. I'm sure he'll spill the beans now that he sold the company. That is if you can get him to a phone in Hawaii.

The change in decoding was told to me when I bought my first Theta piece-Casanova (when it had the green/yellow display).

Like I said, I believe ya, so no reason to call Neil.
Probably one of the reasons Theta's stuff sounds different from most others.

Besides, I had to remove him from my speed dial to make room for the new presidential candidates.

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post #380 of 619 Old 09-13-2008, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

Theta modified their decoding after it received its approval. They were not happy with the performance of the vanilla spec. Little known fact.

Modified whose decoding: Dolby, DTS, SRS?

Sanjay

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post #381 of 619 Old 09-13-2008, 09:47 AM
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[quote=sfogg;14649227BTW, I'm not saying support for 7.1 over HDMI wouldn't be nice in the Lex. Just not the end of the world since there isn't much material in that format and because the Lexicon can do unique things with a 5.1 soundtrack that no other processor can do.

Shawn[/QUOTE]

Yes, like take a soundtrack of "The Eagles," and make it sound like "The Chipmunks." Never been impressed with the sound quality of the Lexicon.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
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post #382 of 619 Old 09-13-2008, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hlkc View Post

Thanks for your share Bulldogger. I have a big room and I have been using my 9.8 7.1 about a year now. I am thinking to upgrade my rear Superior II DAC to Premium DAC in order to do 7.1 in my CBIII. Since I am sending back to factory for HDMI upgrade, I am definitely thinking to do that now.

Anyone want a Superior II DAC, please PM me. Maybe we can send both to a dealer when we send it in for this upgrade and they can swap it for us

If not you should be able to sell the Superior II card. I have two Superior II cards and intend to ultimately go with all Extreme but am still toying with the idea of a Gen VII dac and keeping the two Superior II cards. However, I don't see how Theta's going to be allowed to use the Gen VIII dac with the new formats. I asked that question when HDMI was first bounced around. I asked several times but have never gotten an answer.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
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post #383 of 619 Old 09-13-2008, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Yes, like take a soundtrack of "The Eagles," and make it sound like "The Chipmunks." Never been impressed with the sound quality of the Lexicon.

LOL! Couldn't support any of your claims with facts so back to your typical ad hominem attacks.

Sanjay

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post #384 of 619 Old 09-13-2008, 09:55 AM
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I am interested in the new modules for the Theta Dreadnaught. I"m running 5 amps right now, three Mcintosh MC501 monoblocks and two stereo amps, MC252's. Toying with the idea of going with a Dreadnaught for the surround channels but not so sure that would blend with the Mcintosh stufff as well as my current sst-up. Any updates on that?

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post #385 of 619 Old 09-13-2008, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

LOL! Couldn't support any of your claims with facts so back to your typical ad hominem attacks.

Sanjay

No, the Lexicon does have inferior sound quality IMO. So it really boils down to that and none of the technical specs matter when faced with the sound quality.. I would give up the hobby if the best it was capable of is what the Lex can do. Also, I know that you in typical femine fashion will continue to sidetrack the tread. As usual, you want this thread closed.

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post #386 of 619 Old 09-13-2008, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Yes, like take a soundtrack of "The Eagles," and make it sound like "The Chipmunks." Never been impressed with the sound quality of the Lexicon.

That's not fair. The MC-12HD BAL does a good job. I would never think chipmunks. It would be nice to have 7.1 LPCM. And while there aren't "a lot" of discrete 7.1 blu-rays, I would like to believe it will only go up. As more and more people ask for it, I'm hoping we'll get it. I'd rather have discrete over an algorithm. With that being said, I'd take the algorithm over nothing at all.
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post #387 of 619 Old 09-13-2008, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

No, the Lexicon does have inferior sound quality IMO. So it really boils down to that and none of the technical specs matter when faced with the sound quality.. I would give up the hobby if the best it was capable of is what the Lex can do. Also, I know that you in typical femine fashion will continue to sidetrack the tread. As usual, you want this thread closed.

The lexicon is superior "to me" when you want multi-channel music from a stereo recording ala Logic7. And for the time being, 5.1 LPCM from blu-rays vs. Theta's SPDIF. Once Theta releases their HDMI solution, then only the L7 would be of benefit.

For 2 channel vs. 2 channel, and DD+/DTS vs. DD+/DTS I prefer the Theta CB3 w/Xtreme DACs over the Lex. I have access to both. And the CB3 is the one I chose to have in my listening room.

P.S. Once Theta has their HDMI solution, then the CB3 will be offered first to clients along with the ML502. Lexicon MC-12HD comes in 3rd, then Arcam 4th.
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post #388 of 619 Old 09-13-2008, 10:37 AM
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Bulldogger,

I have the latest version of the Gen 8 and intend to integrate it via the digi card into my CB3. Currently I'm using 1 extreme card and two superior 2 cards. I will loose one of my superior 2 cards when I have the digi card installed. Craig @ Theater Max informed me there would not be a problem with this configuration even after the HMDI upgrade.

I will then just sell the superior 2 card and probably my six shooter.
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post #389 of 619 Old 09-13-2008, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

No, the Lexicon does have inferior sound quality IMO.

That's fine, since you're admitting that it's only your subjective opinion (rather than anything objectively measureable).
Quote:


So it really boils down to that and none of the technical specs matter when faced with the sound quality.

That's fine too, although you were the only one here acting asthough a single technical (7.1 input) is all that mattered.

Sanjay

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post #390 of 619 Old 09-13-2008, 10:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

That's fine, since you're admitting that it's only your subjective opinion (rather than anything objectively measureable). That's fine too, although you were the only one here acting asthough a single technical (7.1 input) is all that mattered.

Let me guess, you have the Lexicon.
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