Headline: Theta - Page 16 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #451 of 619 Old 09-16-2008, 11:52 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,848
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1400 Post(s)
Liked: 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

I don't know that sides or center rear use anything particularly proprietary. SDurani may be right about this. Frankly, I didn't perceive his initial comments about this as an attack against Theta, but as an attempt to clarify whats proprietary here.

Thank you. Starting from my first post to my last post on the 'proprietary' subject, you'll notice I was asking about only one item: "steering software". Nothing else. The part about the side outputs being an "exact replica" of the surround outputs is a direct quote from the CBIII manual.

Sanjay

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #452 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 06:10 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Jim HTPC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,278
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

My participation in this thread started after JimHTPC claimed there were "HDMI issues"(plural) with the Lex. When pressed, he could only point to one (which had not only been resolved but couldn't even be pegged as originating from the Lex). He then alluded to Lex having issues with "other HDMI devices/switchers"(again, plural). When I asked which ones, he couldn't name a single device or swither. Not one.

So let me aks you: why do Theta owners feel so compelled to repeat unsupportable claims about Lexicon in a thread about Theta products? Is it really that impossible to stick to discussing Theta products in a thread about Theta products?

Sanjay

Well #1 because there was a verified problem. Lumagen created a workaround. I am trying to get detailed information on the subject not to please you but to send to Lexicon. I'm sorry the world doesn't move as fast as you would like it. #2 because I am not going to buy every possible HDMI device to "test". When I run across one I'll let you know. It stands to reason that if one HDMI device connected to the Lex created problems that others may too. I never said it did. You seem off on a rant so as to not understand the context of my post. After all I sell the Lex. So I'm not down on it like you think. I stand by my experience that the CB3 with Xtreme DACs is far superior to the Lex in similar formats. L7 is superior than PLII. The crossovers are better in the Theta. You can control independent settings for DD and DTS in the Theta. Lex cannot. DACs are better. Volume control is better. I've not had a single issue with AES locking. I know that some devices had problems locking, not because of experience, but because enough people had problems and Theta explained why. They even released special software for those individuals. How Theta handles their inputs is much better. And once their HDMI solution is released (providing it's bug free), I suspect the only positive thing on the Lex will be L7. I'm all in favor of a newer model from Lex that replaces the MC-12HD. Better products are easier to sell. HDMI has been a thorn in the side for Theta. If it doesn't have it, it's harder to sell as customers want it. Simple really. I suspect a change in the tide soon. Time will show us what happens.
Jim HTPC is offline  
post #453 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 06:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Jim HTPC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,278
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Remember it was I who broke the news about the MC12 being replaced.

Do you mean MC-12 to MC-12HD? Or do you mean the replacement of the current MC-12HD to something newer?
Jim HTPC is offline  
post #454 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 07:43 AM
AVS Special Member
 
sfogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ma, USA
Posts: 5,614
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Steve,

"Theta's card cage system is certainly proprietary - "

Meridian 861 is also card cage. So was the original Krell AV Standard. The ML pre-pros are card caged too.

"How about Theta's volume control - choose analog or digital - my understanding is analog doesn't lose bits and sounds better. Ain't that proprietary?"

Most pre-pros use analog volume controls.

"Theta's card to link external DACs is certainly proprietary. Do you know of any other surround processor that allows for this?"

Pretty much every Meridian pre-pro other then the all analog 541 has digital outputs. That goes back to the 565 which I think was released in 1994 or 1995. There have been a few others that have had digtial outputs for all channels too. One even predates the 565.

Shawn
sfogg is offline  
post #455 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 07:52 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,848
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1400 Post(s)
Liked: 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

I'm sorry the world doesn't move as fast as you would like it.

Wasn't asking the world to move any faster. Just wanted clarification (which I got) on Lexicon's "HDMI issues" with "other HDMI devices/switchers". Nothing more complicated than that.

Sanjay

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #456 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 08:13 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Steve Bruzonsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Posts: 17,671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

Pretty much every Meridian pre-pro other then the all analog 541 has digital outputs. That goes back to the 565 which I think was released in 1994 or 1995. There have been a few others that have had digtial outputs for all channels too. One even predates the 565.

Shawn

Can Meridian pre-pros be used with other companies' stereo DA converters like the Theta CB3 can do?

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
Steve Bruzonsky is offline  
post #457 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 08:49 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
thebland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Detroit, Michigan USA
Posts: 24,016
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 317 Post(s)
Liked: 166
Listening to all this stuff makes me happy to have 7.1 lossless, today, here and now with no bugs... It took a while, but it is here and it is good.
.
Both Lexicon and Theta have serious flaws to those on the high end (Theta being most significant as there is no HDMI) & Lexicon no native 7.1 acceptance.

Honestly, to me this is a bad time to shop for pre/pros as there seems to be little worth owning that is new & nothing of value coming down the pipe line. I am happy with what I have but if I saw a new, true flagship piece, I'd try it. Unfortunately, there is nothing to buy.

An HDMI tune up for $4K with Theta looks like it will be a bargain price to pay for the benefit of lossless over HDMI. But like everyone else there will be bugs for that $4K price. I promise you. In talking with the Theta rep, in addition to new decoders, a fair amount of the internals will have to be retooled. Look at the very expensive [& designed from the ground up] Krell and all its HDMI issues. For $4K, Theta may be a better buy for current CBIII owners but you still take your chances... especially since it is a retrofit. I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone buy a brand new CB III with HDMI at this transitional time unless you have $20K to burn. That goes for Lexicon, too (and to a lesser extent Halcro too...except that it is the cheapest of the bunch). Truly, the Denon and to a lesser extent the Integra seem like the best to own at this point due to good performance, likely good resale and lower prices that will help carry the high end folks until the high end processor build direction get straightened out.

HDMI 1.3 appears to be the problem. As many manufacturers have lamented, decoding to LPCM should be done in the player. I disagreed early on but seeing all the issues and the fight from manufacturers to embrace such, LPCM should be where its at. My opinion is that since you cannot pass a second audio track or other features when bitstreaming from a player, LPCM may make a comeback as the transmission type of choice as it is less problematic (it has been done in processors for years), exactly what the BD manufacturers want (enables more user features) and the player can be equipped with enough processing power to efficiently do so and leave that onus off the processor so the processor can efficiently do its thing without spending precious processing power on decoding bitstream.

Theta will have a solution but it will have growing pains, too. But at $4K, it beats spending $15K on something similar.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
thebland is online now  
post #458 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 09:07 AM
GGA
Advanced Member
 
GGA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Topanga CA
Posts: 713
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Can Meridian pre-pros be used with other companies' stereo DA converters like the Theta CB3 can do?

Meridians can send out digital signals in two ways:

1) MHR (Meridian High Resolution), an encrypted 96/24 format that can only be used with Meridian DSP speakers, up to 7.1.

2) 44.1/48k, plain old S/PDIF, up to 7.1. I don't know the bit depth because Meridian has never answered my emails.

CB3 can also send 7.1 over S/PDIF (don't remember the resolution) including as an option the LCR over AES/EBU.

It looks like the upcoming Tact TCS3 has outlets for 7.1 over AES/EBU or S/PDIF, probably at 96/24.

I don't know of any other pre/pros that can output digital at this time.

The big question, as Shawn alluded to earlier, is what happens to HDMI. It is apparently "against the law" to output unencrypted digital audio if it comes in encrypted over HDMI. Meridian may be able to get around it if their encrypted MHR is approved but then only for their own speakers.

I don't know how Tact or Theta, both still unreleased, will be able to get around it. I don't know if they down rez the signal if that will make it acceptable. Outputting 48/24 should be sufficient as nearly all external DACs can upsample.
GGA is offline  
post #459 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 09:14 AM
 
faberryman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 546
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Can Meridian pre-pros be used with other companies' stereo DA converters like the Theta CB3 can do?

They can, but why in the world would you by a Meridian processor and then use third-party DACs?
faberryman is offline  
post #460 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 09:31 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,490
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Kal, as an "unbiased reviewer, what do you deem to be the "facts" re Theta's proprietary stuff?

What matters most to us Theta luvers is how it sounds. Objective info is nice but how it sounds still matters the most. Note I am not putting down any other brand in saying this.

Re the CB3:

Theta's center spread is proprietary.

Theta's Extreme DAC software is proprietary - whether one might feel objectively its better than someone else's I suppose can be argued.

Theta's taking two channel and being able to make it say Dolby Digital plus another mode for the rest of the channels, like Dolby Digital plus Circle Surround, or Dolby Digital plus DPL2, or even taking analog stereo in from SACD and making it Analog Matrix (preserves analog two channel and derives digital to other channels) is a real nice proprietary feature. Certainly some other brands perhaps have some similar type proprietary modes.

I have a 5.1 (3 subs chained) system, so I really haven't paid attention to side channels, though I understand they are derived and nothing real proprietary here I would think. Same I would think goes for rear center channel. I don't know that sides or center rear use anything particularly proprietary. SDurani may be right about this. Frankly, I didn't perceive his initial comments about this as an attack against Theta, but as an attempt to clarify whats proprietary here. But I really haven't delved into this as it doesn't concern my system.

Theta's Six Shooter multi-channel analog preamp is certainly proprietary and unique to the CB3. And as Bulldogger does you can hook up two of them if you want to do more than 5.1 channels. Of course with HDMI audio 1.3 upgrade to come probably no one will even consider this - except maybe Bulldogger???

Theta's bass management is certainly proprietary, with so much choice of crossover types and slopes it can drive ya batty!!! But it does allow the extreme audiophile home theater voyeur to tailor the bass to setup, room and system. And as SDurani pointed, you can have four separate subs hooked up and you can program which speaker gives the low pass to the subs. Impression is other companies are getting better bass management now but not quite like this.

Theta's card cage system is certainly proprietary - who else has a surround processor since 1997 that remains now upgradeable to HDMI 1.3 audio? Pretty amazing.

How about Theta's volume control - choose analog or digital - my understanding is analog doesn't lose bits and sounds better. Ain't that proprietary?

Theta's re-EQ has four steps. In that sense its proprietary. Of course other surround processors often have their own re-EQ. And I don't know that anyone really needs to use all four steps.

Theta's "normal" and "wide" modes for digital audio are proprietary in the sense that all oher surround processors have only one mode.
The purpose of this is "normal" sounds better in a high resolution system (I have heard this) but "wide" locks easier for those
chips like in some satellite receivers that are likely not in spec like they should be.

Theta's card to link external DACs is certainly proprietary. Do you know of any other surround processor that allows for this? Now its questionable whether HDMI 1.3 audio will pass thu this card to external DACs due to HDMI license restrictions. A friend uses three stereo Levinson DACS with his still CB2 (not upgraded yet).

I recall when my then CB2 was upgraded from Superior to Extreme DACs, which we did in the field, we had to also upgrade with a new even more massive power supply to handle the "power" processing. The quality of the power supply in a component is proprietary in the sense that there are those engineers who believe objectively, and subjectively, that it makes a difference.

And that this upgradeable high end surround processor will soon have HDMI 1.3 audio LPCM and bitstream decoding of the new high resolution audio formats. I got exactly what I asked for here in ths forum several months ago - put the new HDMI 1.3 audio card right where the current video card is, have it video pass through/switching only, working with Theta's Extreme, Superior 2 or Premium DACs. COOL!

This is not to say that other companies like Levinson, Halcro, Lexicon do not have their own proprietary stuff. Some of us like Theta's stuff. Besides that Levinson is way out of my price range - and my Theta Casablanca has been reasonably upgradeable for years now.
It would be nice for this thread to get back to Theta only. And of course for Theta luvers to still ignore a certain D__ W__ who qualifies as a no nothing web expert if I ever saw one. But some others have asked objective questions or given objective info on this thread that
may well be legit. The CB3 has proprietary features but also has features including perhaps some steering and other stuff which of course is similar and perhaps at times the same as in some other companies' products.

________________________

Of course it is well established that the DB3's DACs aren't inherently capable of decoding SACD native bitstream to analog, that conversion to PCM would first have to be accomplished. But once the CB3 HDMI audio 1.3 upgrade is available, one could use an Oppo player, which outputs either SACD bitstream (but don't use with CB3) or converts SACD bitstream to PCM connected via HDMI to the CB3 and get the benefit of digital transmission to the CB3.
__________________________

Kal, I have always respected your technical knowledge and review and any
info you have is welcome. I don't respect everyone (guess who in particular) as on the web everyone is an "expert" but few may know much.

Quoted in full to illustrate the issue as well as some reasonable responses. Facts are facts and opinion is opinion. Both are generally welcome here. The problem comes when a factual question is asked and, instead of saying "dunno" or, even, "irrelevant," people become elaborately defensive. If something is, in fact, proprietary, it is likely that it is patented (and, therefore, public) or no one is told how it works so that the developer's advantage can be maintained. The latter, of course, leaves open the logical possibility that there is no "there" "there." That's why questions must get asked. Simply saying that something is proprietary says nothing unless one gets real information or one has faith in the holder of the secrets. Either position is OK with me.

So, I am not taking any sides on Theta here (or elsewhere) but simply observing that our allegiances can cause us to respond emotionally and inappropriately.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

Kal Rubinson is online now  
post #461 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 09:41 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
thebland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Detroit, Michigan USA
Posts: 24,016
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 317 Post(s)
Liked: 166
So, show me the patent # or eschew the use of 'proprietary'?

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
thebland is online now  
post #462 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 09:47 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Steve Bruzonsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Posts: 17,671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Quoted in full to illustrate the issue as well as some reasonable responses. Facts are facts and opinion is opinion. Both are generally welcome here. The problem comes when a factual question is asked and, instead of saying "dunno" or, even, "irrelevant," people become elaborately defensive. If something is, in fact, proprietary, it is likely that it is patented (and, therefore, public) or no one is told how it works so that the developer's advantage can be maintained. The latter, of course, leaves open the logical possibility that there is no "there" "there." That's why questions must get asked. Simply saying that something is proprietary says nothing unless one gets real information or one has faith in the holder of the secrets. Either position is OK with me.

So, I am not taking any sides on Theta here (or elsewhere) but simply observing that our allegiances can cause us to respond emotionally and inappropriately.

KAL, keep it up and we will write you in this November for POTUS!!!@@@

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
Steve Bruzonsky is offline  
post #463 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 12:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bulldogger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Clinton,MS
Posts: 6,684
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by faberryman View Post

They can, but why in the world would you by a Meridian processor and then use third-party DACs?

Surround processors are "all in one box". External truly dedicated pieces are capable of outperforming them in every catergory. Compromise have to me made at certain price points. I mean there are dacs that cost upwards of 20k just for two channels adn even reasonably priced dacs like that may be capable. Surround processor even very good ones like Meridian can be outperformed this way. What Theta has hopefully done it allow the use out outboard dacs so that one is not limited to the internal dacs of the processor. Theta's own, Gen VIII dac will outperform any surround processor. I am amused by what this says if Theta can output a 24/96 7.1 digital signal with HDMI inputed sources. What it says to me, is that hi-rez audio, since I am assuming it's strictly audio and no video, is not of much financial value and thus not much a concern.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
Bulldogger is offline  
post #464 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 12:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bulldogger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Clinton,MS
Posts: 6,684
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Simple. Folks here want the truth about products. Not rhetoric. It's crystal clear that the highest accolades of any component always come from their owners. In this case, Sanjay had the facts on his side and Bulldogger isn't able to rebut them with anything but insults.

There is nothing to rebut. The burden of proving any claims by Theta is not upon me. If he wants to refute Theta's claim of a proprietary mode, he need to provide more than what he has done so far. He made the initial claim and thus far has not provided any proof that what in on page 80 of the owners manual is untrue. It's clear that he was ignorant of the mode and made a baseless claim. I don't think it is "called for" to question the integrity of Theta Digital in this case.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
Bulldogger is offline  
post #465 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 12:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bulldogger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Clinton,MS
Posts: 6,684
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

Do you mean MC-12 to MC-12HD? Or do you mean the replacement of the current MC-12HD to something newer?

I did not know that the name would be the MC12HD but I knew that the MC12 was being discontinued. I expected a replacement for the MC12HD to be sooner than it has. Only information that I got about the MC12HD was that the replacement would be better sounding. Something about "the Lexicon guys being great at dsp modes and that sort of thing, but lousy at designing audio circuits" and that "the association with the Mark Levinson engineers was likely to result in Lexicon closing the gap with audio quality." Last I heard which is dated information. Take it for what it's worth. Source was a person that I deemed extremely reliable. Never given inaccurate information from this engineer. Same source who told me about that the MC12 was being replaced before apparently anyone around here posted it. Something happened though as the processor is not on the market.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
Bulldogger is offline  
post #466 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 12:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bulldogger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Clinton,MS
Posts: 6,684
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by faberryman View Post

Quote from Bulldoger:
There are a couple of ways of deriving a rear center even if the soundtrack is DTS, you can use DTS processing, DD EX, or Theta's proprietary processing.

Quote from Sanjay:
OK, I'll bite: what are the differences in those three mono extraction circuits? That is, how is Theta extracting a mono surround-back channel that is better (or even different) from what Dolby and DTS were already doing?

Quote from thebland:
Simple. Folks here want the truth about products. Not rhetoric. It's crystal clear that the highest accolades of any component always come from their owners. In this case, Sanjay had the facts on his side and Bulldogger isn't able to rebut them with anything but insults.

How is it different? Well, it proprietary so the exact details are probably unavailable. Unless you are a cynic and think that Theta is just lying, I suspect that it is similar to, or even derivative of, but not an exact copy of DTS and/or DD. That it may be similar to or derivative of does not exclude it from being proprietary. Whether it is better than DTS and/or DD is a matter for subjective evaluation. Only way to tell is to listen to it and to DTS and DD and see if you hear a difference, and then form a judgment as to which you prefer. Same goes for Theta's proprietary Center Spread mode. If you don't like them, don't use them. It doesn't mean they are not proprietary.

Well said.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
Bulldogger is offline  
post #467 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 01:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bulldogger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Clinton,MS
Posts: 6,684
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

Bulldogger, just be aware that the 3800 has a Realta chip. If you have a Video Processor it shouldn't matter, but if you need to use the BD player for SD DVD with no processor the 3800 will be much better. Regards, Norm

Trying to make the decision as to buy a video processor or upgrade my JVC RS1 to the RS20. What's your opinion? Is there no substitute for a good video processor?

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
Bulldogger is offline  
post #468 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 01:32 PM
 
faberryman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 546
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Trying to make the decision as to buy a video processor or upgrade my JVC RS1 to the RS20. What's your opinion? Is there no substitute for a good video processor?

Given my track record around here, I think I'll forego offering an opinion. I might be called upon to prove it.
faberryman is offline  
post #469 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 02:37 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,490
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

KAL, keep it up and we will write you in this November for POTUS!!!@@@

If elected, I will not serve!

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

Kal Rubinson is online now  
post #470 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 02:51 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,848
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1400 Post(s)
Liked: 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

If he wants to refute Theta's claim of a proprietary mode, he need to provide more than what he has done so far.

Refute what? No one has been able to tell me what makes that mode 'proprietary' to begin with.

Sanjay

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #471 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 03:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jim HTPC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,278
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Trying to make the decision as to buy a video processor or upgrade my JVC RS1 to the RS20. What's your opinion? Is there no substitute for a good video processor?

It depends. Are you using an anamorphic lens? There isn't a plate for the RS-20 for anamorphic lens. John @ Panamorph believes one will be done for the RS-20. But until then, there isn't one. Hopefully one will exist around the end of November/December when the RS-20 is shipping.

I like the RS-20 over the RS1. You have more adjustments, and the motors are better than the knobs. The contrast is higher on the RS-20 along with some other refinements. I would suggest getting both the Rs-20 and a vidoe processor. I am waiting for my RadianceXE to ship. It is a good video processor to pair with the JVC series.

The only problem I see with the JVC is the 800 lumen output. But in a 17x25 light controlled room with a 1.3 gain screen it can be calibrated quite nicely. No it's not a Barco or Sim2, but you're paying much less for the setup.
Jim HTPC is offline  
post #472 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 03:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
gbaby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,206
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Listening to all this stuff makes me happy to have 7.1 lossless, today, here and now with no bugs... It took a while, but it is here and it is good.
.
Both Lexicon and Theta have serious flaws to those on the high end (Theta being most significant as there is no HDMI) & Lexicon no native 7.1 acceptance.

Honestly, to me this is a bad time to shop for pre/pros as there seems to be little worth owning that is new & nothing of value coming down the pipe line. I am happy with what I have but if I saw a new, true flagship piece, I'd try it. Unfortunately, there is nothing to buy.

An HDMI tune up for $4K with Theta looks like it will be a bargain price to pay for the benefit of lossless over HDMI. But like everyone else there will be bugs for that $4K price. I promise you. In talking with the Theta rep, in addition to new decoders, a fair amount of the internals will have to be retooled. Look at the very expensive [& designed from the ground up] Krell and all its HDMI issues. For $4K, Theta may be a better buy for current CBIII owners but you still take your chances... especially since it is a retrofit. I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone buy a brand new CB III with HDMI at this transitional time unless you have $20K to burn. That goes for Lexicon, too (and to a lesser extent Halcro too...except that it is the cheapest of the bunch). Truly, the Denon and to a lesser extent the Integra seem like the best to own at this point due to good performance, likely good resale and lower prices that will help carry the high end folks until the high end processor build direction get straightened out.

HDMI 1.3 appears to be the problem. As many manufacturers have lamented, decoding to LPCM should be done in the player. I disagreed early on but seeing all the issues and the fight from manufacturers to embrace such, LPCM should be where its at. My opinion is that since you cannot pass a second audio track or other features when bitstreaming from a player, LPCM may make a comeback as the transmission type of choice as it is less problematic (it has been done in processors for years), exactly what the BD manufacturers want (enables more user features) and the player can be equipped with enough processing power to efficiently do so and leave that onus off the processor so the processor can efficiently do its thing without spending precious processing power on decoding bitstream.

Theta will have a solution but it will have growing pains, too. But at $4K, it beats spending $15K on something similar.

Jeff, this is truly a great post from you and its HONEST and FRANK. Now if I could just get you to do your review on the old DTS codec of 1509kps vs. DTS-MA that you promised a while back on the Denon 3800 post.
gbaby is offline  
post #473 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 03:48 PM
Advanced Member
 
bigbrother52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Hudson River Valley, N.Y.
Posts: 943
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Refute what? No one has been able to tell me what makes that mode 'proprietary' to begin with.

Sanjay

I don't mean for this to come off snotty if it should happen to appear that way to you. Personally, I don't find your questions to be at all out of line.
Perhaps impossible for any to answer but certainly not out of line.
I find most of YOUR questions and arguments to be quite refreshing for the most part.
Unlike another poster that nit-pick posts to death in order to argue just for the sake of it. All that aside....

We know that neither the Lex. Halcro, Meridian or anyone else has a Mode that's called "Theta", therefore, in at least that sense it is definitely proprietary. Although that is just a word, there is "something" that makes it sound different.

I can't say what the differances are, maybe someone else might even be able to describe what it is that they hear that is different sounding from other modes.
I myself cannot say more then, it just doesn't sound the same as DTS or DD, there's a didfferent sound to it but I can't put my finger on it.
When I used my CBI I perfered it's sound over other modes.

Nowadays I use my CBIII processor a bit different and havn't found a place I strictly prefer it over other modes.

So, no S for those looking for that type of description from me on AVS but it's the best I could offer at this time.
I don't think anyone from Theta is going to give us the details.

TURN IT UP!
bigbrother52 is offline  
post #474 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 03:58 PM
 
faberryman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 546
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Refute what? No one has been able to tell me what makes that mode 'proprietary' to begin with.

Sanjay

If Coke claimed (as it does) that its formula is propriety, how would I go about proving it? It's not patented so it is not available for public scrutiny. I could prove it only if a) I somehow was able to obtain their proprietary (secret) formula, or b) I did taste tests to determine if any other cola tasted the same. If you were skeptical and didn't believe Coke's claim, and you were unwilling to taste it and the other colas to confirm to yourself that indeed Coke does taste different from other colas and its formula is indeed proprietary, there would be nothing I could do to prove to you otherwise.

If you don't think Theta's method of extracting rear channels or manipulating center spread is proprietary, since Theta is unlikely to divulge what it claims is its proprietary information just to satisfy your curiosity, the only way to prove it to you would be for you to sit down and listen and compare it to DD and DTS and Neo:6 and Circle Surround and Logic 7 and whatever other surround mode you wanted to see if it sounded different. If you heard a difference, it would be proof. If you didn't hear a difference, then it would be fair for you to conclude that a) Theta was not being honest with you, b) you were not being honest with yourself, or c) you have impaired hearing.

As the saying goes, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting; or put another way, the proof of the proprietary nature of Theta's derivation of rear channels and center spread is in the hearing.
faberryman is offline  
post #475 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 05:09 PM
Advanced Member
 
bigbrother52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Hudson River Valley, N.Y.
Posts: 943
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:



Quote:
Center Channel Spread -- A Theta exclusive, this important mode corrects for theater sound mixes, that route anywhere from 70% to a shocking 90% of the sound to the center channel - usually the weakest speaker in a surround-sound array. This is corrected by directing a portion of the Center Channel signal to the Front Left and Right Speakers, usually the best ones in the system. Center spread is variable, so you can use it as subtlely as you wish.

A Response To that quote was

Right from the theta website, I like how they point out the obvious about why there is a center channel and by the looks of it theta wants a mono sound outputed over all speakers.

I certainly don't want to feed the animals by responding to that statement, so he'll remain nameless. Although, the benefits of having this option should be noted.

I find the use of Center Channel Spread to be of indispensable use.
It helps create a much larger sound stage, a description that many use lightly, for everything from a new power cord to...you name it.
But in this instance, that is exactly what it does and in a not very subtle fashion if you don't want it to be.
And, it in no way, shape or form, turns the 3 channels in question MONO!
That, is simply not the case.
Anyone that thinks that, has just never heard it used, no question in my mind!

With certain program material, allot... NO, too much of it in fact, they may as well have just recorded it in mono using only the center channel.
Without the use of the center spread feature, that's precisely the way it would sound.
Thankfully, it does not have to. It's a truely wonderful feature.
One of my favorites!

TURN IT UP!
bigbrother52 is offline  
post #476 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 06:03 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
tyree91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 884
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Trying to make the decision as to buy a video processor or upgrade my JVC RS1 to the RS20. What's your opinion? Is there no substitute for a good video processor?

Bulldogger, the JVC's have a Gennum VXP Processor Chip which is very good. An external video processor gives you more control since all of its features are opened up to user adjustment. The in projector processors tend to be more turn-key and pre set. We use a DVDO VP-50pro for it's vesitility and great processing, plus it has and SDI input for our Compli for SD DVD, ( the best we've found.) An external processor also has more switching, and requires only a single cable to the projector. Of course, the Theta HDMI input card will offer 4 in x 1 out HDMI so the switching won't be as important.
An HDMI direct into to any of the JVC DILA's gives a tremendous picture, and has a lot of features. The RS 20 will have Gamma adjustment programs included. We were impressed by the RS-20/HD-750 JVC's at CEDIA, and we are considering using that as our main demo.
Either way just be sure to set the BD player to 480 (i if possible) for SD DVD's and not use their internal scaling. Regards, Norm
tyree91 is offline  
post #477 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 08:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jim HTPC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,278
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

Bulldogger, the JVC's have a Gennum VXP Processor Chip which is very good.

A small correction. The RS-1 & RS-2 have the Gennum. The RS-20 has HQV Reon-VX from Silicon Optix. I believe I read somewhere that the Gennum was originally picked due to availability issues. Not necessarily for performance.
Jim HTPC is offline  
post #478 of 619 Old 09-17-2008, 09:52 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
tyree91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 884
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

A small correction. The RS-1 & RS-2 have the Gennum. The RS-20 has HQV Reon-VX from Silicon Optix. I believe I read somewhere that the Gennum was originally picked due to availability issues. Not necessarily for performance.

Jim, thanks for the correction. I have the lit on the 1 & 2, but not on the 20/750 yet. Bad assumption on my part. We did see them at CEDIA however, and they were quite excellent. Regards, Norm
tyree91 is offline  
post #479 of 619 Old 09-18-2008, 05:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Jim HTPC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,278
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

Jim, thanks for the correction. I have the lit on the 1 & 2, but not on the 20/750 yet. Bad assumption on my part. We did see them at CEDIA however, and they were quite excellent. Regards, Norm

Ah you mean you were dazzled @ the demo and walked past the single page spec sheet on the RS-20? lol I agree it is better than the RS-2. In my opinion, the RS-2 should be retired and the RS-20 be called the RS-2.1 or something like that; as it's mostly refinements and not major improvements over the RS-2.
Jim HTPC is offline  
post #480 of 619 Old 09-18-2008, 07:26 AM
Advanced Member
 
rblnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 826
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I use the Reon chip in my Onkyo 9.8 to the RS2 rather than the onboard Gennum -- I find the Reon a bit better using the 480i out of my Oppo
rblnr is offline  
Closed Thread Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off